"throw capitalism at it" ad absurdum

[BH]

People who are just regular non managerial workers have a lot more power than they think. They just don't bother to investigate and find out just how they have power.

 

[bilby]

And where the two sides are disagreeing is the morality between two adults each making free choices. You don't like it that people have free choice to decide their life.

Within a dictatorial structure those at the top giving orders are free.

No they're not.

It's an odd sort of freedom when one is surrounded by high walls and armed guards, and cannot go outside without a police escort, for fear of being shot dead.

 

[Axulus]

But it's not a dictatorship if a person has options.

Let's see... submit, or die?
So hard to choose one's options...

What place are you talking about where those are the two options available? North Korea? I seriously doubt Harry would consider North Korea as a place where one has options.

 

[Axulus]

People are free to start their own business, join a co-op, join an ESOP (there are thousands of ESOPs, join a company that isn't so dictatorial, and etc.

"Let them eat cake."

Dictatorship in the workplace is injustice in the workplace.

Whoever submits to it does so only out of necessity, not desire or free choice.

You can have a democratically elected dictator. Are you saying a democratically elected dictator in the workplace is an injustice? You contradict yourself.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Quit thumping your anarchist bible.

Bringing in children is not pathetic, it's a simple rebuttal of your position. You asserted A => B. I showed a A that wasn't a B. However, you are reacting as if we committed blasphemy--the standard hallmark of those who work on faith rather than reason.

This is not a matter of simple logic.

It is a matter of morality.

And in the organized study of human morality children are ALWAYS considered separately as an entity unto themselves. For good reasons that people who study human morality understand.

You want to stand the entire modern understanding of morality on it's head.

I have no Anarchist bible, just an understanding of morality.

The master/slave relationship is immoral.

The dictator/dictated to relationship is immoral.

It doesn't have to be said but we are talking about relationships among adults.

Bible thumping isn't a rebuttal. All you are doing is proving my point.

- - - Updated - - -

And where the two sides are disagreeing is the morality between two adults each making free choices. You don't like it that people have free choice to decide their life.

Within a dictatorial structure those at the top giving orders are free.

All the rest are servants.

People do not willfully become servants. They only do so out of necessity.

This doesn't pass the laugh test.

Note that you are addressing a person who has specifically chosen the path you say nobody willfully chooses.

 

[untermensche]

Within a dictatorial structure those at the top giving orders are free.

No they're not.

It's an odd sort of freedom when one is surrounded by high walls and armed guards, and cannot go outside without a police escort, for fear of being shot dead.

I'm talking about the legal dictators that actually exist all over the place in capitalist systems.

Dictatorship in government is something people clearly recognize as unjust.

It is just as unjust in the workplace but it is accepted for some reason.

And the top dictators live better than kings, as free as any human has ever been.

 

[LordKiran]

No they're not.

It's an odd sort of freedom when one is surrounded by high walls and armed guards, and cannot go outside without a police escort, for fear of being shot dead.

I'm talking about the legal dictators that actually exist all over the place in capitalist systems.

Dictatorship in government is something people clearly recognize as unjust.

It is just as unjust in the workplace but it is accepted for some reason.

And the top dictators live better than kings, as free as any human has ever been.

So if I were to start a business with my own capital/credit and hired you to work for me, why should you be given a say in how that business is run?

 

[untermensche]

I'm talking about the legal dictators that actually exist all over the place in capitalist systems.

Dictatorship in government is something people clearly recognize as unjust.

It is just as unjust in the workplace but it is accepted for some reason.

And the top dictators live better than kings, as free as any human has ever been.

So if I were to start a business with my own capital/credit and hired you to work for me, why should you be given a say in how that business is run?

Can you meet your goals without another human?

If not that human is as essential as you are.

But ultimately if people had a real choice between working in a democratic institution vs working for a dictator, the want-to-be dictators would have no workers.

 

[coloradoatheist]

So if I were to start a business with my own capital/credit and hired you to work for me, why should you be given a say in how that business is run?

Can you meet your goals without another human?

If not that human is as essential as you are.

But ultimately if people had a real choice between working in a democratic institution vs working for a dictator, the want-to-be dictators would have no workers.

If people had a choice they would want to be sipping My Tais on the beach while being oiled by supermodels. People have the choice to not have a dictator, they can go sell hot dogs in front of Home Depot if they want.

 

[untermensche]

Can you meet your goals without another human?

If not that human is as essential as you are.

But ultimately if people had a real choice between working in a democratic institution vs working for a dictator, the want-to-be dictators would have no workers.

If people had a choice they would want to be sipping My Tais on the beach while being oiled by supermodels. People have the choice to not have a dictator, they can go sell hot dogs in front of Home Depot if they want.

People have a great natural desire for a means of autonomous expression.

But they also can be made to suffer from learned helplessness.

What we have is a population suffering from severe learned helplessness. They have had such restricted options for so long, mainly because of money, they can't even see any additional options.

We don't have a population that desires to be wage slaves.

No population if given a choice would freely chose to be wage slaves.

But the structure of society has to be made healthy before people become healthy and free.

 

[coloradoatheist]

If people had a choice they would want to be sipping My Tais on the beach while being oiled by supermodels. People have the choice to not have a dictator, they can go sell hot dogs in front of Home Depot if they want.

People have a great natural desire for a means of autonomous expression.

But they also can be made to suffer from learned helplessness.

What we have is a population suffering from severe learned helplessness. They have had such restricted options for so long, mainly because of money, they can't even see any additional options.

We don't have a population that desires to be wage slaves.

No population if given a choice would freely chose to be wage slaves.

But the structure of society has to be made healthy before people become healthy and free.

Exactly what all these regimes have said in the past. With enough people executed, imprisoned, tortured (I mean re-educated) everything is a paradise.

 

[untermensche]

People have a great natural desire for a means of autonomous expression.

But they also can be made to suffer from learned helplessness.

What we have is a population suffering from severe learned helplessness. They have had such restricted options for so long, mainly because of money, they can't even see any additional options.

We don't have a population that desires to be wage slaves.

No population if given a choice would freely chose to be wage slaves.

But the structure of society has to be made healthy before people become healthy and free.

Exactly what all these regimes have said in the past. With enough people executed, imprisoned, tortured (I mean re-educated) everything is a paradise.

Just as one trapped in a system of learned helplessness says.

No improvement is possible.

We must submit to dictatorship in the workplace because no other option is possible. Despite all the historical evidence to the contrary.

You display this malady well.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Exactly what all these regimes have said in the past. With enough people executed, imprisoned, tortured (I mean re-educated) everything is a paradise.

Just as one trapped in a system of learned helplessness says.

No improvement is possible.

We must submit to dictatorship in the workplace because no other option is possible. Despite all the historical evidence to the contrary.

You display this malady well.

Thanks for the good laugh this morning. I do have history on my side. All you have for history is one example of an area that failed quickly and you have one example of a company that somewhat implements your ideas. That's no history at all. We do have history of countries trying to implement the workers paradise and totalitarian regimes going into place.

 

[LordKiran]

So if I were to start a business with my own capital/credit and hired you to work for me, why should you be given a say in how that business is run?

Can you meet your goals without another human?

If not that human is as essential as you are.

But ultimately if people had a real choice between working in a democratic institution vs working for a dictator, the want-to-be dictators would have no workers.

You are not invested in the business. I may need your labor but that is why I compensate you for it. So why should you be entitled to make business decisions in a business you aren't invested in?

The way I see it, you would have as much right to make business decisions for my company as some random joe schmoe on the street.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Can you meet your goals without another human?

If not that human is as essential as you are.

But ultimately if people had a real choice between working in a democratic institution vs working for a dictator, the want-to-be dictators would have no workers.

You are not invested in the business. I may need your labor but that is why I compensate you for it. So why should you be entitled to make business decisions in a business you aren't invested in?

The way I see it, you would have as much right to make business decisions for my company as some random joe schmoe on the street.

Ordinary people shouldn't have business ideas, only the thoughtful "morality control officers" should

 

[untermensche]

Just as one trapped in a system of learned helplessness says.

No improvement is possible.

We must submit to dictatorship in the workplace because no other option is possible. Despite all the historical evidence to the contrary.

You display this malady well.

Thanks for the good laugh this morning. I do have history on my side. All you have for history is one example of an area that failed quickly and you have one example of a company that somewhat implements your ideas. That's no history at all. We do have history of countries trying to implement the workers paradise and totalitarian regimes going into place.

Yes, you have the history of humans moving from dictatorship in government to democracy.

You can clearly see how it can be done.

You have no excuse for defending dictatorship.

 

[untermensche]

Can you meet your goals without another human?

If not that human is as essential as you are.

But ultimately if people had a real choice between working in a democratic institution vs working for a dictator, the want-to-be dictators would have no workers.

You are not invested in the business. I may need your labor but that is why I compensate you for it. So why should you be entitled to make business decisions in a business you aren't invested in?

The way I see it, you would have as much right to make business decisions for my company as some random joe schmoe on the street.

Putting labor towards something is investing yourself in it.

If you need no other humans than you can dictate all you want, like a writer or painter.

If you need others you have no human right to dictate over them, only a bad tradition of that immoral practice.

 

[LordKiran]

You are not invested in the business. I may need your labor but that is why I compensate you for it. So why should you be entitled to make business decisions in a business you aren't invested in?

The way I see it, you would have as much right to make business decisions for my company as some random joe schmoe on the street.

Putting labor towards something is investing yourself in it.

If you need no other humans than you can dictate all you want, like a writer or painter.

If you need others you have no human right to dictate over them, only a bad tradition of that immoral practice.

And your investment of labor is rewarded with a paycheck and benefits.

Also your idea of labor that doesn't include anyone is pretty silly. Writers need publishers or the internet to get their work out. Painters need clients and supplies made by others.

Every business ever requires consumers to purchase their goods or services. Without customers a business has nothing, so should customers be allowed to participate in business decisions since they're involved in the success of my business?

 

[coloradoatheist]

You are not invested in the business. I may need your labor but that is why I compensate you for it. So why should you be entitled to make business decisions in a business you aren't invested in?

The way I see it, you would have as much right to make business decisions for my company as some random joe schmoe on the street.

Putting labor towards something is investing yourself in it.

If you need no other humans than you can dictate all you want, like a writer or painter.

If you need others you have no human right to dictate over them, only a bad tradition of that immoral practice.

Because if I want somebody to mow my lawn they don't actually have to mow the lawn

 

[untermensche]

Putting labor towards something is investing yourself in it.

If you need no other humans than you can dictate all you want, like a writer or painter.

If you need others you have no human right to dictate over them, only a bad tradition of that immoral practice.

And your investment of labor is rewarded with a paycheck and benefits.

Also your idea of labor that doesn't include anyone is pretty silly. Writers need publishers or the internet to get their work out. Painters need clients and supplies made by others.

Every business ever requires consumers to purchase their goods or services. Without customers a business has nothing, so should customers be allowed to participate in business decisions since they're involved in the success of my business?

It is of course fitting that labor receive compensation.

That has nothing to do with the matter of an immoral social structure.

People have different skills and that may lead to a difference in compensation, but it certainly gives nobody the right to be a dictator.

No human has that right, despite our moral infancy that presently allows it.