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Mayor blames 4 year old for her own molestation

By the Washington Post article there was no mitigating circumstances offered. It simply was a discussion of what actually happened.

If one says her skirt was provocative, that information alone is insufficient to determine that one is attempting to blame the victim. It doesn't look good (that's for sure), and if one goes on to say this never would have happened if she wasn't dressed so provocatively, it's going to take a herd of horses to convince me it's not victim blaming. However, the truth is still the truth, and the truth still hinges on just what I say it does.

Her skirt was provocative? Definitely victim blaming although really all you're doing is showing how weak you are.

A willingness of a child to acquiesce to an adults sexual wants in absolutely no way implies legal consent. If the perpetrator of a sexual assault brings up the victims frame of mind as if it was a pleasurable welcoming experience (by saying the child liked or enjoyed it, or the child wanted it or asked for it), then we still need to know why the perp is saying those things.

Yup, which is the key point. If this had been in the courtroom I certainly would call it victim blaming. However, it was with the therapist. That simply makes it details of what happened, not an attempt to lay blame.

Victim blaming is a broader concept than you seem to be aware. It's not necessarily the kind of superficial lie to get out of something legally. It's laying some of the blame for the offense on the victim when it's really the offender who had a choice to either commit an offense or not. That need not be in a court room nor superficially outwardly stated; it can be as little as an internalized thought of the offender, to a pronouncement out loud when no one else is around, to a pronouncement out loud to a confidante like a therapist, to a prosecutor, or to a newspaper publicly. Just to be clear, it can be a lie to one's self because the offender may not be able to deal with what they did.
 
It depends on why it was brought up. You're not going to blame the child for being a victim if she admits to be the first wanting to play the feel good game. Of course you're not, but if the rapist testifies that she started it, why be so sure it's not merely a candid presentation of the facts?

If it's brought up to mitigate responsibility, then boom, victim blaming, but if the fact is brought out through direct examination to establish the facts of the case, that seems to me a bit different.

"She started it" cannot be a "fact" in this situation. It is a inference of causality, implicitly claiming that whatever she did or said was the necessary anbd sufficient cause his own actions of raping her. No causal assertion is an observed "fact" of any event. Causality is always inferred, and the number of and likely error in the non-factual assumptions required for causal inference is never greater than when concluding the cause of human action. And in this particular situation, every fact we do know and every well established theory of causes of human action tell us that there is no possible way that anything a 4 year old could say or do would ever be close to either a neccessary or sufficient cause of an adult to touch them sexually.

What could be a "fact" is if he merely stated actual empirical facts like what exactly she did and said, without any non-factual interpretation of what that meant about what "started" (aka caused the sex) or anything about her desires or psychological states that are not directly observable and thus not "facts" And even then, they would have to be factual responses to questions he was asked by the prosecution, otherwise the only plausible motive for him or his defense bringing them up would be to imply causality and blame.

Of course, causal inferences need not be (and often are not) moral blaming. That is a logical fact that the OP and its supporters regularly deny and ignore, ...

Full stop.

Your argument started off sounding rational and then went off the deep end. He and his defense did not say this to the prosecution. He started saying it to people in small circles before it becoming public he would be/was arrested for raping the girl over a 2 year period. Your problem is that it's not factually a causal inference but instead he had a choice afterward and he made an immoral choice because he was attracted to her AND because he was in a situation where risk of getting caught in the act was low. I will add that he did this another 7 or more times so his excuse of her walking in on him in a bathroom is just that and that further, since he was finding himself around her alone all these times over a 2 year period that he was willingly doing so. He wasn't physically disabled!
 
Ravensky,

I have given examples. You have given nothing but broad sweeping claims. ......
Dude, your "examples" are poorly reasoned and constructed so that they are irrelevant. You have yet to explain how anything you have posted explains how claiming that a 4 year old initiated sex or was a willing participant is not trying to mitigate the responsibility away from the rapist and towards the victim. And now, ironically, you engage in the very behavior to claim to abhor in others.
 
You are confusing blaming the victim and minimization; and you are not putting the molester's claim into full context or even analyzing deep enough how this situation arose.

Your word "minimizing" would be more like the molester saying he only raped her 10 times whereas other children get raped every day. Instead, the molester is saying he raped her because first she did X. That puts the onus on her. You are claiming you are an acting "logician" and it doesn't necessarily put the onus on her, but you are not thinking deeply enough to see it. He is saying X ==> Y, his next action. X =/=> Y, though. That only happens if also the guy is deranged (Z) and circumstances are open enough for it to happen such as parents aren't around (A). So, X and Z and A ==> Y. But is it real?

He raped her over a period of 2 to 3 years, multiple multiple times. Yes, I wrote the word "multiple" more than once.* So, this single time she is alleged to have done something accounts for some 8 rapes? Really? After the first time, where he just HAD to do it because of what a 4 year old did, he also HAD to rape her another 7 times? That's a rhetorical question as it ought to be obvious to a normal person (and a self-declared logician) that the only relevant factors are his motive and opportunity (i.e., Z and A ==> Y).

Finally, the molester's declarations do not minimize their ugliness in any way whatsoever. All they do is expose his irrational mind as does the fact that he wants to plead not guilty.

*
Keenan was later admitted to Trumbull Memorial Hospital’s psychiatric ward in Warren, Ohio. He said during group discussions there that he had been sexually abusing a child for two years, according to court records.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rticipant-records-say/?utm_term=.0201253ff741

Wait, wait, wait. We got two different ball games going here. I'm usually pretty good about keeping my eye on the ball, but when the game ball winds up on the other field, we have to be particularly careful. If we're talking about a particular case and whether the bad guy's words ought to be construed as victim blaming, then that's a horse of another color, and as such, I find little reason to argue.

However, when a topic progresses and transcends beyond an actual case whereby similar yet hypothetical cases are being examined instead, then the points being driven home need not address the original case in every way. I could easily argue with Lauren about claims highlighted in red, but to think my arguments must be confined to facts of the particular case presented in the OP is silly.

Statements like, "she was dressed provacatively" does not logically imply (but merely suggests) that there may be some victim blaming going on. If someone presents a case where something like that is said, then even if we can demonstrate that the statement in that case does represent victim blaming, that does nothing to counter my claim which is a different issue entirely and need be applicable to the particular case at hand.

If an officer arrests a provacatively dressed twelve year old and places her in the same cell as a 24 year old immigrant earlier arrested by that same officer for sexually molesting a ten year old, the immigrant might say she is partially to blame for dressing provacatively, but the prosecuting attorney who just so happens to agree that she was dressed provacatively is not blaming the victim. Suppose instead, the immigrant says yes, she was dressed provacatively but that had nothing to do with it, for he would have molested her either way because the officer gave him access to her by putting her in there with him. That's SHIFTING blame away from him to the officer but not onto the victim. The point is that what may ordinarily be a dead giveaway for victim blaming does not guarentee that it must always in every conceivable case be so.

WHY we say the things we do matter.
 
You are confusing blaming the victim and minimization; and you are not putting the molester's claim into full context or even analyzing deep enough how this situation arose.

Your word "minimizing" would be more like the molester saying he only raped her 10 times whereas other children get raped every day. Instead, the molester is saying he raped her because first she did X. That puts the onus on her. You are claiming you are an acting "logician" and it doesn't necessarily put the onus on her, but you are not thinking deeply enough to see it. He is saying X ==> Y, his next action. X =/=> Y, though. That only happens if also the guy is deranged (Z) and circumstances are open enough for it to happen such as parents aren't around (A). So, X and Z and A ==> Y. But is it real?

He raped her over a period of 2 to 3 years, multiple multiple times. Yes, I wrote the word "multiple" more than once.* So, this single time she is alleged to have done something accounts for some 8 rapes? Really? After the first time, where he just HAD to do it because of what a 4 year old did, he also HAD to rape her another 7 times? That's a rhetorical question as it ought to be obvious to a normal person (and a self-declared logician) that the only relevant factors are his motive and opportunity (i.e., Z and A ==> Y).

Finally, the molester's declarations do not minimize their ugliness in any way whatsoever. All they do is expose his irrational mind as does the fact that he wants to plead not guilty.

*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rticipant-records-say/?utm_term=.0201253ff741

Wait, wait, wait. We got two different ball games going here. I'm usually pretty good about keeping my eye on the ball, but when the game ball winds up on the other field, we have to be particularly careful. If we're talking about a particular case and whether the bad guy's words ought to be construed as victim blaming, then that's a horse of another color, and as such, I find little reason to argue.

However, when a topic progresses and transcends beyond an actual case whereby similar yet hypothetical cases are being examined instead, then the points being driven home need not address the original case in every way. I could easily argue with Lauren about claims highlighted in red, but to think my arguments must be confined to facts of the particular case presented in the OP is silly.

Statements like, "she was dressed provacatively" does not logically imply (but merely suggests) that there may be some victim blaming going on. If someone presents a case where something like that is said, then even if we can demonstrate that the statement in that case does represent victim blaming, that does nothing to counter my claim which is a different issue entirely and need be applicable to the particular case at hand.

If an officer arrests a provacatively dressed twelve year old and places her in the same cell as a 24 year old immigrant earlier arrested by that same officer for sexually molesting a ten year old, the immigrant might say she is partially to blame for dressing provacatively, but the prosecuting attorney who just so happens to agree that she was dressed provacatively is not blaming the victim. Suppose instead, the immigrant says yes, she was dressed provacatively but that had nothing to do with it, for he would have molested her either way because the officer gave him access to her by putting her in there with him. That's SHIFTING blame away from him to the officer but not onto the victim. The point is that what may ordinarily be a dead giveaway for victim blaming does not guarentee that it must always in every conceivable case be so.

WHY we say the things we do matter.

Those hypothetical statements do not exist in a vacuum either. I suggest you stick to reality of this case or some other. Otherwise, you run the risk of an obtuse theoretical conclusion. And I do hope you actually address the specifics of my post.
 
So very easy to scream "Wrong!" without actually addressing what I said, isn't it? Trump showed us that.

Sorry, but context matters in determining the level of blameworthiness of somebody for an action, and context can include the behaviour of others who are in no way misbehaving or worthy of blame themselves.
Perhaps you can work through the logic of how saying a 4 year old either initiated sex or was a willing participant with an adult male is not an attempt to mitigate the responsibility of the rapist?

Just curious, and this question is just for you, (no one else, just you) and I'll even give you the upper hand by intentionally conflating sex with coitus whereby sex includes only coitus, is a rapist even capable of raping a four year old given your past claim that a four year old can't have sex? What throws me is the idea that rape is nonconsensual sex. If a four year old can't have sex (what you're saying), then why use the term "rapist?"
 
Perhaps you can work through the logic of how saying a 4 year old either initiated sex or was a willing participant with an adult male is not an attempt to mitigate the responsibility of the rapist?

Just curious, and this question is just for you, (no one else, just you) and I'll even give you the upper hand by intentionally conflating sex with coitus whereby sex includes only coitus, is a rapist even capable of raping a four year old given your past claim that a four year old can't have sex? What throws me is the idea that rape is nonconsensual sex. If a four year old can't have sex (what you're saying), then why use the term "rapist?"

Pedophile rolls off the tongue far better, you're right. :D
 
Wait, wait, wait. We got two different ball games going here. I'm usually pretty good about keeping my eye on the ball, but when the game ball winds up on the other field, we have to be particularly careful. If we're talking about a particular case and whether the bad guy's words ought to be construed as victim blaming, then that's a horse of another color, and as such, I find little reason to argue.

However, when a topic progresses and transcends beyond an actual case whereby similar yet hypothetical cases are being examined instead, then the points being driven home need not address the original case in every way. I could easily argue with Lauren about claims highlighted in red, but to think my arguments must be confined to facts of the particular case presented in the OP is silly.

Statements like, "she was dressed provacatively" does not logically imply (but merely suggests) that there may be some victim blaming going on. If someone presents a case where something like that is said, then even if we can demonstrate that the statement in that case does represent victim blaming, that does nothing to counter my claim which is a different issue entirely and need be applicable to the particular case at hand.

If an officer arrests a provacatively dressed twelve year old and places her in the same cell as a 24 year old immigrant earlier arrested by that same officer for sexually molesting a ten year old, the immigrant might say she is partially to blame for dressing provacatively, but the prosecuting attorney who just so happens to agree that she was dressed provacatively is not blaming the victim. Suppose instead, the immigrant says yes, she was dressed provacatively but that had nothing to do with it, for he would have molested her either way because the officer gave him access to her by putting her in there with him. That's SHIFTING blame away from him to the officer but not onto the victim. The point is that what may ordinarily be a dead giveaway for victim blaming does not guarentee that it must always in every conceivable case be so.

WHY we say the things we do matter.

Those hypothetical statements do not exist in a vacuum either. I suggest you stick to reality of this case or some other. Otherwise, you run the risk of an obtuse theoretical conclusion. And I do hope you actually address the specifics of my post.

Which specific specifically?

You said, "Instead, the molester is saying he raped her because first she did X." Sounds like victim blaming to me. The term, "because" goes a long way to make me think it's victim blaming. It's like he's saying, "it's her damn fault anyway; we wouldn't even be here if she wouldn't have ever done X because had she not done X, I probably wouldn't have ever did what I did. Ya dangle fresh meat in front of a lion and wonder why they take a bite. Yeah, victim blaming.
 
Ravensky,

I have given examples. You have given nothing but broad sweeping claims.
wrong

And now you are engaging in slander. I have not engaged in personal attacks in private messages...
Yes. You did.

And now you are engaged in more of the same on the public board. Since you are incapable of staying on the actual topic, and instead want to engage in personal attacks and derails, you have clearly declared yourself out.

Buy bye.
 
Former Hubbard, Ohio mayor Richard Keenan, who now admits to raping a young child, is facing life behind bars.

He was visibly shaken Friday as he changed his plea to guilty on 20 counts of sex crimes, including eight counts of rape. Keenan agreed to a life sentence with the eligibility of parole after ten years.

According to court documents, the abuse began as early as September 2013 when the victim — who Keenan knew — was just 4 years old.
http://nbc4i.com/2017/03/18/former-northeast-ohio-mayor-pleads-guilty-to-raping-4-year-old/
 
The filing goes into extensive detail about each of the purported admissions.

It states that after Keenan voluntarily admitted himself into a Warren psychiatric facility after his release from Trumbull, he told a social worker “he was feeling suicidal because he had been molesting the child victim for approximately the past two years.” It states that during those discussions, Keenan blamed the victim for initiating the acts and called her a “willing participant.”

- See more at: http://www.vindy.com/news/2016/sep/13/prosecutor-ex-mayor-of-hubbard-admitted-/#sthash.CU58IliT.dpuf
 
"She started it" cannot be a "fact" in this situation. [...] What could be a "fact" is if he merely stated actual empirical facts like what exactly she did and said, without any non-factual interpretation of what that meant about what "started" (aka caused the sex) or anything about her desires or psychological states that are not directly observable and thus not "facts"

Well dang ronburgundy, I was just throwing in the "She started it" line as a quick example, which apparently was a bad example because I had hoped to avoid the "(aka caused the sex)" interpretation.

How about, "She did and said whatever the hell it is she did and said?"

If it's brought up by the perp, then there's a pretty darn good chance that it's being brought up in an effort to deflect blame away from himself in an attempt to show that she should in the very least share in some of whatever blame that's coming his way. In short, if the perp says she did and said something, there's a high likelihood that he is at least partially blaming her ... victim blaming.

All I'm doing is taking a step back and trying to rule out possibilities of mistake. We're gonna crucify the guy either way, and we're gonna do it because of what he did, whether he acknowledges full responsibility or not.
 
From the cited article

He blamed the child for initiating sex and describing her as a “willing participant.
(emphasis is mine).

So, in order to make a convincing reality-based argument that this pastor did not blame the child, one would need to present evidence to contradict the report that either the pastor did not literally blame the child (i.e. a report with quotes from him) or evidence that the reporter of the cited article is unreliable.

In the absence of such evidence, I would think and hope any rational and disinterested party would agree that this pastor actually blamed his victim.

He didn't blame the child! That is a straw man! Instead, he was pointing out that the child was being reckless and that the rape would not have happened if not for the child's actions, which is completely different from blaming the child, therefore straw man!
 
Still waiting for the "this is not blaming the victim" crowd to rationally explain how that claiming a rape victim of 4 years of age initiated the sex is not an attempt to shift some of the responsibility onto the victim (which is blaming the victim).

Because this is what happened with the therapist, not what happened in the courtroom.

Exactly what happened is something of importance in therapy.
 
Still waiting for the "this is not blaming the victim" crowd to rationally explain how that claiming a rape victim of 4 years of age initiated the sex is not an attempt to shift some of the responsibility onto the victim (which is blaming the victim).

Because this is what happened with the therapist, not what happened in the courtroom.

Exactly what happened is something of importance in therapy.

Are you seriously attempting to claim that a very young child willing and deliberately initiated sex with a grown man on many multiple occasions for several years starting at the age of 4? Is this what you are trying to claim is "exactly what happened"?
 
Similarly, a woman may bend over in front of a filing cabinet directly in the line of sight of a guy so he looks up from what he's doing and finds himself looking directly down her blouse. She isn't being blamed for him looking down her shirt, and he can certainly use her behaviour to push some if not all of the blame off himself. He was just sitting there and from his point of view she basically flashed him. Stating that isn't blaming her for anything, is it? She could be oblivious to doing it.

So no, bringing up what somebody is wearing or how somebody is behaving CAN be brought up and can even be done so to take blame off of the accused, without it being victim blaming.

Yup--I have been flashed in similar circumstances. I was looking at the object she bent over, her top was so loose and open that I could see the entire top half of her breasts, including her nipples.
 
So no, bringing up what somebody is wearing or how somebody is behaving CAN be brought up and can even be done so to take blame off of the accused, without it being victim blaming.

Wrong. Discussing the behavior of a victim to take the blame off of the accused is necessarily shifting some of that blame to the victim. It is victim blaming, plain and simple.

Except some of us at least see no shifting of the blame happening here.

1) This arose in a therapy context, not a courtroom.

2) It would only be a defense if he had immediately stopped her, something that he didn't do.
 
Yup--I have been flashed in similar circumstances. I was looking at the object she bent over, her top was so loose and open that I could see the entire top half of her breasts, including her nipples.

Who the fuck cares? This derail about you ogling a woman's breasts has nothing to do with your insistence that that the rapist blaming the victim is not victim-blaming.
 
Wrong. Discussing the behavior of a victim to take the blame off of the accused is necessarily shifting some of that blame to the victim. It is victim blaming, plain and simple.

Except some of us at least see no shifting of the blame happening here.
Yes, it is clear that you refuse to see reality

1) This arose in a therapy context, not a courtroom.
Immaterial, and you have been told this repeatedly by several people, which means that you are willfully ignoring anything that doesn't support your erroneous position
 
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