Solar Power In California

[Alcoholic Actuary]

The storage capacity of a typical electricity network is approximately 20 milliseconds of supply, a value that can be rounded down to zero for most practical purposes. Your conclusions are based on a false assumption.

You are correct, but apparently they are working on it:

http://newsroom.edison.com/stories/sce-unveils-largest-battery-for-storing-electricity-in-north-america

aa

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

The problem is that solar forces the utilities to supply a more uneven demand. Uneven demand means gas generators and it means running generators at idle a lot because they take too long to start up when needed. Think of how much your gar guzzles (on a mpg basis) while stuck in stop-and-go traffic. That's what your panels are doing to the power grid.

I have an electric vehicle. And I really don't care that it wastes 'sun-power' when I'm stopped, it's not like I'm going to run out of sunshine.

aa

 

[J842P]

The problem is that solar forces the utilities to supply a more uneven demand. Uneven demand means gas generators and it means running generators at idle a lot because they take too long to start up when needed. Think of how much your gar guzzles (on a mpg basis) while stuck in stop-and-go traffic. That's what your panels are doing to the power grid.

I have an electric vehicle. And I really don't care that it wastes 'sun-power' when I'm stopped, it's not like I'm going to run out of sunshine.

aa

No, it's the gas generators that are idling.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The storage capacity of a typical electricity network is approximately 20 milliseconds of supply, a value that can be rounded down to zero for most practical purposes. Your conclusions are based on a false assumption.

You are correct, but apparently they are working on it:

http://newsroom.edison.com/stories/sce-unveils-largest-battery-for-storing-electricity-in-north-america

aa

And even more recently from Tesla both in CA and if they ever took Elon Musk up on his offer, South Australia.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

I have an electric vehicle. And I really don't care that it wastes 'sun-power' when I'm stopped, it's not like I'm going to run out of sunshine.

aa

No, it's the gas generators that are idling.

I know, and that sucks. My comment is more of a metaphor anyway. This is something that SCE needs to figure out. "We need to get fewer people on solar so that we can stop wasting gas" is as ridiculous as it sounds.

aa

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I have an electric vehicle. And I really don't care that it wastes 'sun-power' when I'm stopped, it's not like I'm going to run out of sunshine.

aa

No, it's the gas generators that are idling.

Instead of going full bore to meet demand by themselves.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This again?

It's not a sign of environmental success, but rather of environmental failure. The solar power isn't reliable enough to take the other generators offline, thus you have them running at minimum throttle and burning fuel for no benefit.

The benefit is that they come on when it gets dark. What are the total emissions of solar and conventional power during the day verses just the conventional during the day?

Your complaint would be like complaining about people being paid not to grow crops in order to maintain the needed infrastructure for a strong agriculture system.

Except they're running all day, needed or not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I see this as an incentive to pour funding into energy storage development.

I don't think it's needed--there's lot of drive for power storage as it is.

There comes a point where more funding is trying to use 9 women to make a baby in a month.

 

[KeepTalking]

I see this as an incentive to pour funding into energy storage development.

I don't think it's needed--there's lot of drive for power storage as it is.

There comes a point where more funding is trying to use 9 women to make a baby in a month.

I know you meant it as a negative, but that sure sounds like a lot of fun to me.

 

[LordKiran]

I see this as an incentive to pour funding into energy storage development.

I don't think it's needed--there's lot of drive for power storage as it is.

There comes a point where more funding is trying to use 9 women to make a baby in a month.

I know, you follow the instructions but there's always a fucking piece missing...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, it's the gas generators that are idling.

Instead of going full bore to meet demand by themselves.

Without the solar much of that power could be provided by nuke--zero CO2 emissions.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The problem is that solar forces the utilities to supply a more uneven demand. Uneven demand means gas generators and it means running generators at idle a lot because they take too long to start up when needed. Think of how much your gar guzzles (on a mpg basis) while stuck in stop-and-go traffic. That's what your panels are doing to the power grid.

Gas turbine generators, Siemens, GE, have start up times of under an hour. They are designed to compliment renewables.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is that solar forces the utilities to supply a more uneven demand. Uneven demand means gas generators and it means running generators at idle a lot because they take too long to start up when needed. Think of how much your gar guzzles (on a mpg basis) while stuck in stop-and-go traffic. That's what your panels are doing to the power grid.

Gas turbine generators, Siemens, GE, have start up times of under an hour. They are designed to compliment renewables.

But you need at least some of them spinning anyway in case a cloud comes over.

 

[lpetrich]

I notice that hydroelectric generation is not being throttled very much.

Throttle the hydro and you throttle the river.

Dams have spillways for a reason. If the water is not allowed into the generators, it will go over the top of the dam and into the dam's spillway(s).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Throttle the hydro and you throttle the river.

Dams have spillways for a reason. If the water is not allowed into the generators, it will go over the top of the dam and into the dam's spillway(s).

If it's full. If it's not full and you don't run the generators you also don't have water flowing.

 

[Underseer]

Oh no!

If power becomes too cheap, what then? Won't someone think of the fossil fuel companies and nuclear power plants?

I'm sorry, but cheaper power could have a large number of positive effects we can't predict yet. Yes, we have to figure out a better way to deal with excess power, but this could have the power to change the cost of a large number of things in our economies. Having more power available for less money could transform the economy in ways we can't get predict.

 

[bilby]

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/28/germany-facing-mass-blackouts-because-the-wind-and-sun-wont-cooperate/

I wonder if the Germans have a word for 'Schadenfreude'.

 

[bilby]

Oh no!

If power becomes too cheap, what then? Won't someone think of the fossil fuel companies and nuclear power plants?

I'm sorry, but cheaper power could have a large number of positive effects we can't predict yet. Yes, we have to figure out a better way to deal with excess power, but this could have the power to change the cost of a large number of things in our economies. Having more power available for less money could transform the economy in ways we can't get predict.

This isn't about cheap power. Cheap power is a good thing.

This is about power that is worth less than nothing. The only reason power can have a negative price is because it's harming the grid, and the grid operator demands that producers pay to add their damaging excess power to his oversaturated grid, in the hope that this will get some production taken offline.

 

[dismal]

Oh no!

If power becomes too cheap, what then? Won't someone think of the fossil fuel companies and nuclear power plants?

I'm sorry, but cheaper power could have a large number of positive effects we can't predict yet. Yes, we have to figure out a better way to deal with excess power, but this could have the power to change the cost of a large number of things in our economies. Having more power available for less money could transform the economy in ways we can't get predict.

This isn't about cheap power. Cheap power is a good thing.

This is about power that is worth less than nothing. The only reason power can have a negative price is because it's harming the grid, and the grid operator demands that producers pay to add their damaging excess power to his oversaturated grid, in the hope that this will get some production taken offline.

No, Bilby it's not "harming the grid". It's just that producers have incentives to sell it for a negative price because of the way the market has been set up.

If you are getting a $20/MWh subsidy outside the pool and have a $10 cost to produce a MWh, you might bid as low as -$10 because you'd be happy to run at that price. It the pool clears at $-5, you still make money producing (-5 price + -10 costs + $20 subsidy = +$5 total margin)

 

[ZiprHead]

I wonder if the Germans have a word for 'Schadenfreude'.

While I am nowhere near fluent in German, I believe the word is 'Schadenfreude'.