I have now met a real life creationist.

[DrZoidberg]

Ok, so now use ethics and logic to argue why this is relevant. I'm an atheist. I don't care about what Jesus thinks about anything. I understand you do. That's nice. But doesn't help me. I'm assuming you think the words of Jesus are moral? So it shouldn't be any problem for you to tell us why you find them moral?

Philosophy is foolishness.
You don't care what Jesus thinks about anything - right?
So, why should I bother to explain his words to you?

Just making the claim that philosophy is foolishness is using philosophy to argue that you shouldn't philosophise. Here's a suggestion. If you don't know what a long word means ("philosophy") ask somebody who does or look it up before you use it in a sentence.

 

[wilson]

ar·range
[əˈrānj]

VERB
put (things) in a neat, attractive, or required order:
"she had just finished arranging the flowers" · [more]
synonyms: order · set out · lay out · array · position · dispose · [more]
organize or make plans for (a future event):
"they hoped to arrange a meeting" · [more]
synonyms: organize · fix (up) · plan · schedule · pencil in · contrive · [more]
music
adapt (a composition) for performance with instruments or voices other than those originally specified:
"songs arranged for viola and piano"
synonyms: adapt · set · score · orchestrate · transcribe · instrument
archaic
settle (a dispute or claim):
"the quarrel, partly by the interference of the crown prince, was arranged"


ar·range·ment
[əˈrānjmənt]

NOUN
the action, process, or result of arranging or being arranged:
"the arrangement of the furniture in the room"
synonyms: positioning · disposition · order · presentation · display · [more]
(arrangements)
plans or preparations for a future event:
"all the arrangements for the wedding were made"
music
a composition adapted for performance with different instruments or voices than those originally specified:
"Mozart's symphonies in arrangements for cello and piano"
synonyms: adaptation · orchestration · instrumentation
archaic
a settlement of a dispute or claim.

"Nature itself is an elaborate arrangement that operates in one direction. It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident.
Every object in nature is part of that arrangement and nothing can be found that does not fit in with it.
Humans can criticize the designer, but they cannot escape the design."

 

[Keith&Co.]

"Nature itself is an elaborate arrangement that operates in one direction. It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident.
Every object in nature is part of that arrangement and nothing can be found that does not fit in with it.
Humans can criticize the designer, but they cannot escape the design."

attribution
: the act of attributing something; especially : the ascribing of a work (as of literature or art) to a particular author or artist

 

[none]

I wouldn't say nature is arrangement with "one direction", it is because it exists
You might be able to argue heat death
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-16452-9_6?no-access=true

...
The dynamics of a large-scale quasi-homogeneous scalar field producing the de Sitter (inflationary) stage in the early universe is strongly affected by small-scale quantum fluctuations of the same scalar field and, in this way, becomes stochastic.
...

I know I know you can say God brought order to an otherwise stochastic universe, but I'd like some evidence... not some aesthetic plea
I'm getting the feeling this is a God of the gaps type argument, we can't say what happened therefore God

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Nature itself is an elaborate arrangement that operates in one direction. It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident.
Every object in nature is part of that arrangement and nothing can be found that does not fit in with it.
Humans can criticize the designer, but they cannot escape the design."

We have arranged nature into categories to better understand it. But nature didn't. Nature just is. No, we can't criticise the designer, because there is none. The universe and all of creation looks like it has come about by the workings of random forces. Even in chaos we get patterns. The fact that you can see a pattern in a chaotic mess doesn't prove a designer.

 

[wilson]

"Nature itself is an elaborate arrangement that operates in one direction. It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident.
Every object in nature is part of that arrangement and nothing can be found that does not fit in with it.
Humans can criticize the designer, but they cannot escape the design."

We have arranged nature into categories to better understand it. But nature didn't. Nature just is. No, we can't criticise the designer, because there is none. The universe and all of creation looks like it has come about by the workings of random forces. Even in chaos we get patterns. The fact that you can see a pattern in a chaotic mess doesn't prove a designer.

Humans cannot arrange nor re-arrange nature in any way.
"It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident."
I would like you to show me examples of chaos in nature.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We have arranged nature into categories to better understand it. But nature didn't. Nature just is. No, we can't criticise the designer, because there is none. The universe and all of creation looks like it has come about by the workings of random forces. Even in chaos we get patterns. The fact that you can see a pattern in a chaotic mess doesn't prove a designer.

Humans cannot arrange nor re-arrange nature in any way.
"It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident."
I would like you to show me examples of chaos in nature.

We can arrange our labels for things. Which is what we've done.

An example of chaos in nature is if you mix a bunch of colours and then whisk them around you get a mess. Same thing happens in our seas all the time. It's the second law of thermodynamics. It's so well established that I'm struggling to come up with examples. Everything is an example of increased entropy. Can you come up with an example of a situation where entropy doesn't increase? Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

 

[wilson]

Humans cannot arrange nor re-arrange nature in any way.
"It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident."
I would like you to show me examples of chaos in nature.

We can arrange our labels for things. Which is what we've done.

Which is not what you said:

"We have arranged nature into categories to better understand it. But nature didn't."

Is this your effort at correcting that error?

An example of chaos in nature is if you mix a bunch of colours and then whisk them around you get a mess.

"Nature" NEVER does that - YOU do.

Same thing happens in our seas all the time.

The sea is never chaotic. It ALWAYS works for the good of its inhabitants. That's not chaos.

It's the second law of thermodynamics.

No "law" is chaotic. It is steady, consistent and can be relied upon. That's not chaos.

It's so well established that I'm struggling to come up with examples.

You are contradicting yourself. Anything "established" is not chaotic.

Everything is an example of increased entropy.

That's a law. That's not chaos.

Can you come up with an example of a situation where entropy doesn't increase?

No. And that is what makes abiogenesis and evolution impossible.

Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

Why not? Stopped by a natural law? You are still talking about laws of nature. That's not chaos.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We can arrange our labels for things. Which is what we've done.

Which is not what you said:

"We have arranged nature into categories to better understand it. But nature didn't."

Is this your effort at correcting that error?

It is exactly what I said. When you misunderstood what I said, I said the same thing in a different way in the hope that you now would understand me. Well.... did you?

The sea is never chaotic. It ALWAYS works for the good of its inhabitants. That's not chaos.

I don't even know what to say. You seem so bizarrely ignorant about pretty much everything, it's hard to find metaphors that might speak to you. I'm sure to tell that to all the inhabitants plagued by the multitude of parasites and predators trying to kill them. There's a very good reason our ancestors migrated onto land. It was a hell of a lot safer.

It's the second law of thermodynamics.

No "law" is chaotic. It is steady, consistent and can be relied upon. That's not chaos.

It's so well established that I'm struggling to come up with examples.

You are contradicting yourself. Anything "established" is not chaotic.

Everything is an example of increased entropy.

That's a law. That's not chaos.

This is just word play and games with logic. Are we playing or are we having a discussion? I'd rather have a discussion.

Can you come up with an example of a situation where entropy doesn't increase?

No. And that is what makes abiogenesis and evolution impossible.

What? You just agreed with me. And then go on to contradict yourself.

Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

Why not? Stopped by a natural law? You are still talking about laws of nature. That's not chaos.

ha ha ha. No, they're not stopped by a natural law. These aren't legal laws. The natural laws can't stop anything. They're just a handy way to label nature as to make it easier to talk about. But it only works if you can be bothered to learn what the labels actually mean.

For all we know chaos isn't the final stage. But when something has become chaotic the last 13.7 billion years they stay that way. 13.7 billion years is what scientists call, a very long time. So long it can for practical purposes be equated with eternity. That's why we created a law, to make it easier for us to understand. It's a shortcut. If somebody says, "I saw a tree fall upward and right itself". We can say, "how much have you had to drink, Larry?" We don't have to go and see for ourselves. That's what laws of nature are for. They're to help us avoid wasting time on investigating things that have been exhaustively investigated already. If you learn them they speed up the understanding of all kinds of things.

An anecdote. When I was young a friend of the family was a physicist. She had loads of plants. I asked her the names of them. She didn't know many. But her plants were incredibly well taken care of and extremely healthy. I asked her how she knew how to take care of the plants if she didn't know their names. She said, "it's just basic physics and chemistry. If you know science well you can work out how to take care of any plant". And then she explained her system to me. I've used the same system to take care of my plants as well. I still haven't been bothered to read up on horticulturalism, because my grasp of physics and chemistry have made it redundant. See how easy life gets if you can be bothered to learn science properly?

 

[atrib]

"Nature itself is an elaborate arrangement that operates in one direction. It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident.
Every object in nature is part of that arrangement and nothing can be found that does not fit in with it.
Humans can criticize the designer, but they cannot escape the design."

Nature works by equalizing energy gradients. The universe began in a highly ordered state about 13 billion years ago, and has progressed since then to a state of increasing disorder. The initial conditions of the universe allows stars to be born from massive clouds of gas and dust, and allows life to exist, at least on one planet we know of, for a brief period of time. But this will end. As the overall entropy of the universe increases, so will its ability to do work and create structures like stars decrease. Ultimately, all that will be left will be a sea of random photons, equally distributed over the the extent of the universe, and the universe will be dark. Heat death. No designer involved or needed.

Obviously, you would know all this if you had bothered to read a science textbook instead of your sacred text. Ignorance is NOT bliss. If you need something to wonder about, look up at the night sky through a telescope, and educate yourself by going to the library and reading some current textbooks. Our state of knowledge has advanced enormously since the Bible, and you are really missing out by chaining your mind to the idea of a imaginary supercreature that rules your existence.

 

[atrib]

Can you come up with an example of a situation where entropy doesn't increase?

No. And that is what makes abiogenesis and evolution impossible.

Step outside during the day and look up at the sky. You will see a bright ball of fire, which we call the Sun. The Sun has been radiating enormous amounts of energy over the past 4 billion years. Energy which allows plants to grow, and drives the water cycle on our planet. The energy of the Sun makes life possible on Earth. I am surprised you don't know this. Do they keep you locked up in a dark cell?

Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

Why not? Stopped by a natural law? You are still talking about laws of nature. That's not chaos.

No. Caused by the fact that energy differentials no longer exist in the universe. This is called heat death, where the entropy of the universe has reached a maximum, and the universe has become changeless and timeless. Basic science. Something you would know if you had bothered to keep up with the progress of science.

 

[wilson]

Which is not what you said:

"We have arranged nature into categories to better understand it. But nature didn't."

Is this your effort at correcting that error?

It is exactly what I said. When you misunderstood what I said, I said the same thing in a different way in the hope that you now would understand me. Well.... did you?

The sea is never chaotic. It ALWAYS works for the good of its inhabitants. That's not chaos.

I don't even know what to say. You seem so bizarrely ignorant about pretty much everything, it's hard to find metaphors that might speak to you. I'm sure to tell that to all the inhabitants plagued by the multitude of parasites and predators trying to kill them. There's a very good reason our ancestors migrated onto land. It was a hell of a lot safer.

It's the second law of thermodynamics.

No "law" is chaotic. It is steady, consistent and can be relied upon. That's not chaos.

It's so well established that I'm struggling to come up with examples.

You are contradicting yourself. Anything "established" is not chaotic.

Everything is an example of increased entropy.

That's a law. That's not chaos.

This is just word play and games with logic. Are we playing or are we having a discussion? I'd rather have a discussion.

Can you come up with an example of a situation where entropy doesn't increase?

No. And that is what makes abiogenesis and evolution impossible.

What? You just agreed with me. And then go on to contradict yourself.

Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

Why not? Stopped by a natural law? You are still talking about laws of nature. That's not chaos.

ha ha ha. No, they're not stopped by a natural law. These aren't legal laws. The natural laws can't stop anything. They're just a handy way to label nature as to make it easier to talk about. But it only works if you can be bothered to learn what the labels actually mean.

For all we know chaos isn't the final stage. But when something has become chaotic the last 13.7 billion years they stay that way. 13.7 billion years is what scientists call, a very long time. So long it can for practical purposes be equated with eternity. That's why we created a law, to make it easier for us to understand. It's a shortcut. If somebody says, "I saw a tree fall upward and right itself". We can say, "how much have you had to drink, Larry?" We don't have to go and see for ourselves. That's what laws of nature are for. They're to help us avoid wasting time on investigating things that have been exhaustively investigated already. If you learn them they speed up the understanding of all kinds of things.

An anecdote. When I was young a friend of the family was a physicist. She had loads of plants. I asked her the names of them. She didn't know many. But her plants were incredibly well taken care of and extremely healthy. I asked her how she knew how to take care of the plants if she didn't know their names. She said, "it's just basic physics and chemistry. If you know science well you can work out how to take care of any plant". And then she explained her system to me. I've used the same system to take care of my plants as well. I still haven't been bothered to read up on horticulturalism, because my grasp of physics and chemistry have made it redundant. See how easy life gets if you can be bothered to learn science properly?

So far, you have failed to name a single example of chaos in nature.
Want to try something else?

 

[DrZoidberg]

So far, you have failed to name a single example of chaos in nature.
Want to try something else?

I think Atrib summed it up best

"No. Caused by the fact that energy differentials no longer exist in the universe. This is called heat death, where the entropy of the universe has reached a maximum, and the universe has become changeless and timeless. Basic science. Something you would know if you had bothered to keep up with the progress of science."

You are so bizarrely ignorant about this that you don't even understand why your question makes no sense. Everything in nature is an example of increasing chaos. Literally anything and everything is an example of chaos in nature. Just look at your hand. The engine behind that creation is the loss of energy from the sun. Energy has transferred from the sun to your hand, but it's an inefficient transfer and there's a net loss. One day the sun will be gone and so will whatever appendages your distant off-spring will have.

 

[wilson]

No. And that is what makes abiogenesis and evolution impossible.

Step outside during the day and look up at the sky. You will see a bright ball of fire, which we call the Sun. The Sun has been radiating enormous amounts of energy over the past 4 billion years. Energy which allows plants to grow, and drives the water cycle on our planet. The energy of the Sun makes life possible on Earth. I am surprised you don't know this. Do they keep you locked up in a dark cell?

Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

Why not? Stopped by a natural law? You are still talking about laws of nature. That's not chaos.

No. Caused by the fact that energy differentials no longer exist in the universe. This is called heat death, where the entropy of the universe has reached a maximum, and the universe has become changeless and timeless. Basic science. Something you would know if you had bothered to keep up with the progress of science.

False prophecy!
This is earth's future:
“. . .The wilderness and the parched land will exult, And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron. *2 Without fail it will blossom; It will rejoice and shout for joy. The glory of Lebʹa·non will be given to it, The splendor of Carʹmel and of Sharʹon. They will see the glory of Jehovah, the splendor of our God. *3 Strengthen the weak hands, And make firm the knees that are shaking. *4 Say to those who are anxious at heart: “Be strong. Do not be afraid. Look! Your own God will come with vengeance, God will come with retribution. He will come and save you.” *5 At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened, And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. *6 At that time the lame will leap like the deer, And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert plain. *7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool, And the thirsty ground springs of water. In the lairs where jackals rested, There will be green grass and reeds and papyrus.” (Isaiah 35:1-7)

“. . .They will build houses and live in them, And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. 22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit, Nor will they plant for others to eat. For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree, And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, Nor will they bear children for distress, Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah, And their descendants with them. 24 Even before they call out, I will answer; While they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, The lion will eat straw just like the bull, And the serpent’s food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.” (Isaiah 65:21-25)

“. . .He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.” (Isaiah 25:8)

“. . .And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error.” (Isaiah 33:24)

“. . .With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:3, 4)

Even the old will be young again:
“. . .Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.’” (Job 33:25)

And even the dead will live again:
“ If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands.” (Job 14:14, 15)

“. . .And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. . .” (Acts 24:15)

“. . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28, 29)

You are an unbeliever, so this is of no interest to you.
That does not mean it will not happen.
And it is a much brighter future.

 

[DrZoidberg]

False prophecy!
This is earth's future:
“. . .The wilderness and the parched land will exult, And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron. *2 Without fail it will blossom; It will rejoice and shout for joy. The glory of Lebʹa·non will be given to it, The splendor of Carʹmel and of Sharʹon. They will see the glory of Jehovah, the splendor of our God. *3 Strengthen the weak hands, And make firm the knees that are shaking. *4 Say to those who are anxious at heart: “Be strong. Do not be afraid. Look! Your own God will come with vengeance, God will come with retribution. He will come and save you.” *5 At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened, And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. *6 At that time the lame will leap like the deer, And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert plain. *7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool, And the thirsty ground springs of water. In the lairs where jackals rested, There will be green grass and reeds and papyrus.” (Isaiah 35:1-7)

“. . .They will build houses and live in them, And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. 22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit, Nor will they plant for others to eat. For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree, And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, Nor will they bear children for distress, Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah, And their descendants with them. 24 Even before they call out, I will answer; While they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, The lion will eat straw just like the bull, And the serpent’s food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.” (Isaiah 65:21-25)

“. . .He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.” (Isaiah 25:8)

“. . .And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error.” (Isaiah 33:24)

“. . .With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:3, 4)

Even the old will be young again:
“. . .Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.’” (Job 33:25)

And even the dead will live again:
“ If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands.” (Job 14:14, 15)

“. . .And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. . .” (Acts 24:15)

“. . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28, 29)

You are an unbeliever, so this is of no interest to you.
That does not mean it will not happen.
And it is a much brighter future.

All you've got left to do now is back all this up with some actual arguments. In order to become a believer you need to come across convincing arguments.

Do you remember when you were in school and doing a maths test, and you got a failed sum because you'd forgotten to explain how you came to the result? This is the same thing. What was the process by which you came to believe the above? Just this list is worthless by itself.

 

[wilson]

“. . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28, 29)

You are an unbeliever, so this is of no interest to you.
That does not mean it will not happen.
And it is a much brighter future.

All you've got left to do now is back all this up with some actual arguments. In order to become a believer you need to come across convincing arguments.

Do you remember when you were in school and doing a maths test, and you got a failed sum because you'd forgotten to explain how you came to the result? This is the same thing. What was the process by which you came to believe the above? Just this list is worthless by itself.

Do I need to convince you?
Nope!
With an unbeliever, that is not possible. That is why unbelievers are not regular associates of believers.
To the believer:
“. . . Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . .” (2 Corinthians 6:14-16)

“. . .Now I urge you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the spirit, that you exert yourselves with me in prayers to God for me, 31 that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Ju·deʹa and that my ministry in behalf of Jerusalem may prove to be acceptable to the holy ones, 32 so that by God’s will I will come to you with joy and be refreshed together with you. 33 May the God who gives peace be with all of you.. . .” (Romans 15:30-33)

“. . .If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things (Satan), has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.” (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4)

"To unbelievers, Jesus would be a sign to be spoken against, or an object of contempt. Such faithless ones would reject him, stumble over him, and fall. As foretold, Jesus proved to be a stone of stumbling to many Jews. (Isa 8:14) Others, however, would put faith in Jesus. (Isa 28:16) They would be figuratively resurrected, or raised up, from a state of being “dead in [their] trespasses and sins” and would come to enjoy a righteous standing with God.—Eph 2:1."
(Luke Study Notes—Chapter 2)

Better (for a believer) to be defrauded than to take a fellow Christian to court before unbelievers (1 Corinthians 6:1-6)

"The disciples of Jesus Christ were likewise mocked by the uninformed and by unbelievers.
"However, others mocked them and said: “They are full of sweet wine.”(Ac 2:13)
“. . .Now when they heard of a resurrection of the dead, some began to scoff, while others said: “We will hear you again about this.”” (Acts 17:32)

"Enduring ridicule with the proper viewpoint.
Jesus Christ knew all along that he would face ridicule and that it would culminate in his being put to death. But he recognized that the reproaches were actually against Jehovah, whom he represented, and this was all the more painful to him, for he ‘always did the things pleasing to his Father’ (Joh 8:29), and he was more concerned with the sanctification of his Father’s name than with anything else. (Mt 6:9) Accordingly, “when he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.” The apostle Peter expresses this point when writing to Christians, particularly to slaves, exhorting them not to let such treatment incite them to retaliate; for Christ is their example, “a model,” Peter says, “for [them] to follow his steps closely.”—1Pe 2:18-23; Ro 12:17-21."
(Insight vol. 2 pp. 807-808)

“. . .“But the wicked are like the restless sea that cannot calm down, And its waters keep tossing up seaweed and mire.  There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”” (Isaiah 57:20, 21)


You are an unbeliever, so this is of no interest to you.
That does not mean it will not happen.
And it is a much brighter future.

 

[none]

At least you admit it's not very convincing

 

[DrZoidberg]

All you've got left to do now is back all this up with some actual arguments. In order to become a believer you need to come across convincing arguments.

Do you remember when you were in school and doing a maths test, and you got a failed sum because you'd forgotten to explain how you came to the result? This is the same thing. What was the process by which you came to believe the above? Just this list is worthless by itself.

Do I need to convince you?
Nope!
With an unbeliever, that is not possible. That is why unbelievers are not regular associates of believers.
To the believer:
“. . . Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . .” (2 Corinthians 6:14-16)

“. . .Now I urge you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the spirit, that you exert yourselves with me in prayers to God for me, 31 that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Ju·deʹa and that my ministry in behalf of Jerusalem may prove to be acceptable to the holy ones, 32 so that by God’s will I will come to you with joy and be refreshed together with you. 33 May the God who gives peace be with all of you.. . .” (Romans 15:30-33)

“. . .If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things (Satan), has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.” (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4)

"To unbelievers, Jesus would be a sign to be spoken against, or an object of contempt. Such faithless ones would reject him, stumble over him, and fall. As foretold, Jesus proved to be a stone of stumbling to many Jews. (Isa 8:14) Others, however, would put faith in Jesus. (Isa 28:16) They would be figuratively resurrected, or raised up, from a state of being “dead in [their] trespasses and sins” and would come to enjoy a righteous standing with God.—Eph 2:1."
(Luke Study Notes—Chapter 2)

Better (for a believer) to be defrauded than to take a fellow Christian to court before unbelievers (1 Corinthians 6:1-6)

"The disciples of Jesus Christ were likewise mocked by the uninformed and by unbelievers.
"However, others mocked them and said: “They are full of sweet wine.”(Ac 2:13)
“. . .Now when they heard of a resurrection of the dead, some began to scoff, while others said: “We will hear you again about this.”” (Acts 17:32)

"Enduring ridicule with the proper viewpoint.
Jesus Christ knew all along that he would face ridicule and that it would culminate in his being put to death. But he recognized that the reproaches were actually against Jehovah, whom he represented, and this was all the more painful to him, for he ‘always did the things pleasing to his Father’ (Joh 8:29), and he was more concerned with the sanctification of his Father’s name than with anything else. (Mt 6:9) Accordingly, “when he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.” The apostle Peter expresses this point when writing to Christians, particularly to slaves, exhorting them not to let such treatment incite them to retaliate; for Christ is their example, “a model,” Peter says, “for [them] to follow his steps closely.”—1Pe 2:18-23; Ro 12:17-21."
(Insight vol. 2 pp. 807-808)

“. . .“But the wicked are like the restless sea that cannot calm down, And its waters keep tossing up seaweed and mire.  There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”” (Isaiah 57:20, 21)


You are an unbeliever, so this is of no interest to you.
That does not mean it will not happen.
And it is a much brighter future.

You were an unbeliever at some point. What was your process to become convinced?

You are yourself evidence of that unbelievers can become believers

 

[James Brown]

I'm an unbeliever that's been married to a believer for nearly 28 years.

But I'm sure That's Different™.

 

[wilson]

Do I need to convince you?
Nope!
With an unbeliever, that is not possible. That is why unbelievers are not regular associates of believers.
To the believer:
“. . . Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . .” (2 Corinthians 6:14-16)

“. . .Now I urge you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the spirit, that you exert yourselves with me in prayers to God for me, 31 that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Ju·deʹa and that my ministry in behalf of Jerusalem may prove to be acceptable to the holy ones, 32 so that by God’s will I will come to you with joy and be refreshed together with you. 33 May the God who gives peace be with all of you.. . .” (Romans 15:30-33)

“. . .If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things (Satan), has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.” (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4)

"To unbelievers, Jesus would be a sign to be spoken against, or an object of contempt. Such faithless ones would reject him, stumble over him, and fall. As foretold, Jesus proved to be a stone of stumbling to many Jews. (Isa 8:14) Others, however, would put faith in Jesus. (Isa 28:16) They would be figuratively resurrected, or raised up, from a state of being “dead in [their] trespasses and sins” and would come to enjoy a righteous standing with God.—Eph 2:1."
(Luke Study Notes—Chapter 2)

Better (for a believer) to be defrauded than to take a fellow Christian to court before unbelievers (1 Corinthians 6:1-6)

"The disciples of Jesus Christ were likewise mocked by the uninformed and by unbelievers.
"However, others mocked them and said: “They are full of sweet wine.”(Ac 2:13)
“. . .Now when they heard of a resurrection of the dead, some began to scoff, while others said: “We will hear you again about this.”” (Acts 17:32)

"Enduring ridicule with the proper viewpoint.
Jesus Christ knew all along that he would face ridicule and that it would culminate in his being put to death. But he recognized that the reproaches were actually against Jehovah, whom he represented, and this was all the more painful to him, for he ‘always did the things pleasing to his Father’ (Joh 8:29), and he was more concerned with the sanctification of his Father’s name than with anything else. (Mt 6:9) Accordingly, “when he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.” The apostle Peter expresses this point when writing to Christians, particularly to slaves, exhorting them not to let such treatment incite them to retaliate; for Christ is their example, “a model,” Peter says, “for [them] to follow his steps closely.”—1Pe 2:18-23; Ro 12:17-21."
(Insight vol. 2 pp. 807-808)

“. . .“But the wicked are like the restless sea that cannot calm down, And its waters keep tossing up seaweed and mire.  There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”” (Isaiah 57:20, 21)


You are an unbeliever, so this is of no interest to you.
That does not mean it will not happen.
And it is a much brighter future.

You were an unbeliever at some point.

Never.

What was your process to become convinced?

I had no "process," but humility helps a lot.

You are yourself evidence of that unbelievers can become believers

They can - but only if the condition of the heart is right.
“. . .When those of the nations (non-Jews) heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.” (Acts 13:48)

What does that mean?
"A person displays a certain dominant attitude. He has a particular disposition that is rooted in his figurative heart. (Matthew 12:34, 35; 15:18-20) Thus, we read of a person whose “heart is disposed to fight.” (Psalm 55:21) We are told that “anyone disposed to rage has many a transgression.” And we read: “There exist companions disposed to break one another to pieces, but there exists a friend sticking closer than a brother.” (Proverbs 18:24; 29:22) Happily, many prove to be like some Gentiles in ancient Antioch in Pisidia. Upon hearing about Jehovah’s provision for salvation, “they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.”—Acts 13:44-48.
 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you.” (Matthew 6:33)

A heart that longs for righteousness and truth, one that hates wickedness, violence and unjust profit, one that sees the oppression and injustice of the present system of things, plus a personal study of the bible and a comparison with other religious texts and practices is usually sufficient to start one on the road that leads to eternal life.

Those not rightly disposed for everlasting life will not become believers. It is not possible for them to exercise faith. (2*Thessalonians 3:2) Moreover, nobody can become a true follower of Jesus Christ unless he is teachable and Jehovah, who sees what the heart is, draws that person.
"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him,....."(John 6:41-47)
Of course, in preaching from house to house, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not prejudge anyone. They cannot read hearts but leave the results in God’s loving hands." (WT 91 1/15 pp. 16-17)