I have now met a real life creationist.

[DrZoidberg]

Biblical history goes back to the beginning of humanity.

History is studying the past by studying written documents. Humanity is a lot older than the oldest written text. Again and again you demonstrate that you don't know the meaning of the most basic "long words". Wilson, you were saying earlier that it's important to be humble. When are you going to start?

Science has only guesses.

Are you afraid of flying by any chance? How about worrying about your fridge keeping the food cold? When you get into a car do you trust that the car will work? When you fill it with gas, do you ever wonder if just this time it won't work?

The reason why you don't worry about any of this is because science is dependable, ie the opposite of only having guesses. There's a reason we trust science in our society. Because science works! Every time you open the fridge and it is cold you have proof that science is correct. Every time I've prayed to God, (just as an experiment) nothing has happened. God has been dependably disappointing.

My statement was:
"Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity."
Is it true or false?

Now - try again.

And you've been shown that science is the greatest boon mankind has ever seen. Statistically, without science you'd be dead. You wouldn't even be born. None of us would.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If a person today in the world of tech got lost in the deep woods or got left behind on a tour in the wilderness. That person would first die of fright before hunger and thirst kicked in because he or she is out of range for the i-phone.

This person has probably never really been interested in nature let alone learn to cook because of the microwave but says "they do make a mean double cheese with fries nearby and they ...er.... hold on theres a text". You know the story.

Science is the study of nature. Reality is the exact opposite of what you just wrote. I'm an engineer. If the disaster comes, I'll be fine. I can even help rebuild civilisation again. Can you? If you're stuck out in the wilderness your the only thing your Bible is good for is kindling.

 

[Learner]

Science is the study of nature. Reality is the exact opposite of what you just wrote. I'm an engineer. If the disaster comes, I'll be fine. I can even help rebuild civilisation again. Can you? If you're stuck out in the wilderness your the only thing your Bible is good for is kindling.

The Amish and the like regardless of religion have done pretty good without technology of any kind. An example that this is possible! . Now Im not suggesting to live without your mobiles but they have been considerably "quite healthy" by what they produce themselves.

I'd say in your disaster scenario if all systems and power grid is down - these people would also save lives because of their religion and their useful way of life in nature.

 

[wilson]

All that rings kind of hollow considering the person saying it is the member of a cult.

Saying what? Is something wrong with hating wickedness, violence, oppression, injustice and unjust profit? When I turned down that job making injurious things, did I do something wrong?
Who is "saying" all of this? Do you think these words originate with a cult?:
“. . .Those who acquit the wicked for a bribe And who deny justice to the righteous!” (Isaiah 5:23)
“. . .Woe to those who enact harmful regulations, Who constantly draft oppressive decrees, *2 To deny the legal claim of the poor, To deprive the lowly among my people of justice, Making widows their spoil And fatherless children their plunder!” (Isaiah 10:1, 2)
“. . .No, your own errors have separated you from your God. Your sins have made him hide his face from you, And he refuses to hear you. *3 For your palms are polluted with blood And your fingers with error. Your lips speak lies, and your tongue mutters unrighteousness. *4 No one calls out for righteousness, And no one goes to court in truthfulness. They trust in unreality and speak what is worthless. They conceive trouble and give birth to what is harmful. *5 They hatch the eggs of a poisonous snake, And they weave the cobweb of a spider. Anyone who eats their eggs would die, And the egg that is crushed hatches a viper. *6 Their cobweb will not serve as a garment, Nor will they cover themselves with what they make. Their works are harmful, And deeds of violence are in their hands. *7 Their feet run to do evil, And they hurry to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are harmful thoughts; Ruin and misery are in their ways. *8 They have not known the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks. They make their roadways crooked; No one treading on them will know peace. *9 That is why justice is far away from us, And righteousness does not overtake us. We keep hoping for light, but look! there is darkness; For brightness, but we keep walking in gloom. 10 We grope for the wall like blind men; Like those without eyes we keep groping. We stumble at high noon as in evening darkness; Among the strong we are just like the dead. 11 We all keep growling like bears And cooing mournfully like doves. We hope for justice, but there is none; For salvation, but it is far away from us. 12 For our revolts are many before you; Each of our sins testifies against us. For our revolts are with us; We well know our errors. 13 We have transgressed and denied Jehovah; We have turned our backs on our God. We have spoken of oppression and revolt; We have conceived lies and muttered false words from the heart. 14 Justice is driven back, And righteousness stands far off; For truth has stumbled in the public square, And what is upright is unable to enter. 15 Truth has vanished, And anyone who turns away from bad is plundered. Jehovah saw this and was displeased, For there was no justice.” (Isaiah 59:2-15)
“. . .“For from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them, every one is making for himself unjust gain; and from the prophet even to the priest, each one is acting falsely. 14 And they try to heal the breakdown of my people lightly, saying, ‘There is peace! There is peace!’ when there is no peace. 15 Did they feel shame because it was something detestable that they had done? For one thing, they positively do not feel any shame; for another thing, they have not come to know even how to feel humiliated. Therefore they will fall among those who are falling; in the time that I must hold an accounting with them they will stumble,” Jehovah has said.” (Jeremiah 6:13-15)
The corruption and injustice today is far worse that it was back then.
Cults have nothing to do with any of it.
It is a person's disposition that causes him to love the world's practices just as it is.

How about judging people on what they do, rather than what they say what they do? JW's say one thing and do another IMHO.

Back up your claims about cults.

JW have caused a tremendous amount of harm and injury to people. People that I know.

List them.
No allegations or accusations. List the facts - things that you can prove.
If you can't, you are a slanderer and a liar!

If you truly hate wickedness, violence, oppression, injustice and unjust profit then you can prove it by leaving JW. JW is an incredibly rich organisation. Did they become rich by unjust profiteering, or is it just unjust when other people do it? I'm not saying that JW's are bad people. But JW makes good people do bad things.

Before I go any further, will you answer this question that you seem to be trying to ignore?:
"When I turned down that job making injurious things, did I do something wrong?"

 

[funinspace]

People kill people with science. Science is simply a systematically organized body of knowledge. The lack of knowledge would have kept humanity incredibly primitive, with infant mortality rates worse than the worst parts of today's world. This lacking would also have humans with very stunted life spans; this lacking would have culled 20-30% of all children by disease every generation or two like it used to. Smallpox, flu, black death, Malaria, AIDS, Cholera, Typhus, to name a few:
http://www.oddee.com/item_90608.aspx

Smallpox killed an estimated 60 million Europeans, including five reigning European monarchs, in the 18th century alone. Up to 30% of those infected, including 80% of the children under 5 years of age, died from the disease, and one third of the survivors became blind.

Death by a thousand tiny wars every year is no less dead than by 5 wars a year. Humanity without science would have stripped the planet of trees far worse than otherwise. The murder rates in Europe, with its long recorded history has declined over the centuries (link has lots of pretty graphs):
https://ourworldindata.org/homicides/

European homicide rates have dramatically decreased over the last millennium and have remained steadily low over the past 50 years.

Woman in most parts of the world are no longer little better than chattel. Slavery almost no longer exists. Rape and pillage are usually no longer part of war. Torture is generally frowned upon. Lots of positives that the 'end is nih' crowd puts outside of their blinders...

Science is the study of nature. Reality is the exact opposite of what you just wrote. I'm an engineer. If the disaster comes, I'll be fine. I can even help rebuild civilisation again. Can you? If you're stuck out in the wilderness your the only thing your Bible is good for is kindling.

The Amish and the like regardless of religion have done pretty good without technology of any kind. An example that this is possible! . Now Im not suggesting to live without your mobiles but they have been considerably "quite healthy" by what they produce themselves.

Hardly true at all. Yes, they live with less technology/science, but hardly without it. Do they mine their own iron ore?

They use electricity, basic appliances, vaporizers for health, et.al:
http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-use-electricity/

No technology here LOL, never mind diesel generators, gas, batteries:


A benefit for a medical clinic intended primarily for the Amish:
http://amishamerica.com/clinic-for-special-children-benefit-auction/

I'd say in your disaster scenario if all systems and power grid is down - these people would also save lives because of their religion and their useful way of life in nature.

Many people know how to get by old style, it doesn't take religion. And the Amish, on their own, would slowly degrade back to something like the 16th century without their kind neighbors coddling them. Others would understand how to start rebuilding...

 

[Learner]

People kill people with science. Science is simply a systematically organized body of knowledge. The lack of knowledge would have kept humanity incredibly primitive, with infant mortality rates worse than the worst parts of today's world. This lacking would also have humans with very stunted life spans; this lacking would have culled 20-30% of all children by disease every generation or two like it used to. Death by a thousand tiny wars every year is no less dead than by death by 5 wars a year. Humanity without science would have stripped the planet of trees far worse than otherwise. The murder rates in Europe, with its long recorded history has declined over the centuries (link has lots of pretty graphs):
https://ourworldindata.org/homicides/

Woman in most parts of the world are no longer little better than chattel. Slavery almost no longer exists. Rape and pillage are usually no longer part of war. Torture is generally frowned upon.

Taking from Wilson . Science you so described is knowledge that is beneficial and yet destructive at the same time. Science and knowledge abused is also power! The technology improves the bigger yield by less effort by the push of the button. Its been done twice! Now we are pondering on the idea (as in the current news) if its in the wrong hands and what we should do.

Less murders in Europe is not less murders in the science age - the rest of world with humanity.

They use electricity, basic appliances, vaporizers for health, et.al:
http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-use-electricity/

No technology here LOL, never mind diesel generators, gas, batteries:


A benefit for a medical clinic intended primarily for the Amish:
http://amishamerica.com/clinic-for-special-children-benefit-auction/

Sure ... these are gradient trivial things in comparison in context which are just recent compared to the example that they have lived without for a considerble time. They are still the experts without technology unlike those that mostly depend on it.

Many people know how to get by old style, it doesn't take religion. And the Amish, on their own, would slowly degrade back to something like the 16th century without their kind neighbors coddling them. Others would understand how to start rebuilding...

I think ye must mean .. degrading ; going back to the olde style speaking Shakespearian English. Like Pitcairn island where they still speak English from Captain Bligh's era.

 

[funinspace]

Science you so described is knowledge that is beneficial and yet destructive at the same time. Science and knowledge abused is also power! The technology improves the bigger yield by less effort by the push of the button. Its been done twice! Now we are pondering on the idea (as in the current news) if its in the wrong hands and what we should do.

Less murders in Europe is not less murders in the science age - the rest of world with humanity.

My point was, and maybe you started responding before I added this part: "Lots of positives that the 'end is nih' crowd puts outside of their blinders...". Wilson is one of those Malthusian Christians, always seeing the negative as it fits his religious narrative. One see's that in lots of fundamentalists/evangelicals. Technology/science didn't expand in a vacuum. I picked the European trend as they have some of the best data; and murders are the best indicator for crime as it is better recorded. The obvious trend is that modern countries generally have good health and much lower crime rates. Lots of things are way better than they were 500 years ago. But sure modern science is a double edged sword.

They use electricity, basic appliances, vaporizers for health, et.al:
http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-use-electricity/

No technology here LOL, never mind diesel generators, gas, batteries:


A benefit for a medical clinic intended primarily for the Amish:
http://amishamerica.com/clinic-for-special-children-benefit-auction/

Sure ... these are gradient trivial things in comparison in context which are just recent compared to the example that they have lived without for a considerble time. They are still the experts without technology unlike those that mostly depend on it.

I disagree. I say they live in a fantasy bubble, enabled by their kindly neighboring society. Put another way, set them on a distant island, with no outside aid and with their mentality, they would slip back into the 16th century and into a much harsher life. And they can spend their free time mining, smelting, and shaping that iron ore. But sure they could survive...

 

[wilson]

History is studying the past by studying written documents. Humanity is a lot older than the oldest written text. Again and again you demonstrate that you don't know the meaning of the most basic "long words". Wilson, you were saying earlier that it's important to be humble. When are you going to start?

Science has only guesses.

Are you afraid of flying by any chance? How about worrying about your fridge keeping the food cold? When you get into a car do you trust that the car will work? When you fill it with gas, do you ever wonder if just this time it won't work?

The reason why you don't worry about any of this is because science is dependable, ie the opposite of only having guesses. There's a reason we trust science in our society. Because science works! Every time you open the fridge and it is cold you have proof that science is correct. Every time I've prayed to God, (just as an experiment) nothing has happened. God has been dependably disappointing.

My statement was:
"Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity."
Is it true or false?

Now - try again.

And you've been shown that science is the greatest boon mankind has ever seen. Statistically, without science you'd be dead. You wouldn't even be born. None of us would.

"Scientists believe that a rise in the earth’s average temperature, extremes in weather, the melting of ice caps and glaciers, and the death of coral reefs and important species all point to global climate change. Though the subject is debated, many hold the cause to be the burning of coal, oil, and natural gas—fossil fuels that emit high amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere—by cars and industry.
Some experts believe that those emissions act like a greenhouse, slowing the escape of heat from the earth into space and causing temperatures to rise. Because trees absorb carbon dioxide, large-scale deforestation may also contribute to climate change.
“If present rates of global warming continue and production of carbon dioxide is not curtailed, many scientists believe the Earth’s average temperature will continue to rise, resulting in wilder and more unpredictable climatic swings and higher ocean levels that could threaten the low-lying coastal areas where much of humanity makes its home.”—(A Mind for Tomorrow: Facts, Values, and the Future)

“Every year, between 18,000 and 55,000 species become extinct. The cause: human activities.”—United Nations Development Program

What's the solution?

 

[Keith&Co.]

If a person today in the world of tech got lost in the deep woods or got left behind on a tour in the wilderness. That person would first die of fright before hunger and thirst kicked in because he or she is out of range for the i-phone.

This person has probably never really been interested in nature let alone learn to cook because of the microwave but says "they do make a mean double cheese with fries nearby and they ...er.... hold on theres a text". You know the story.

okay. So let's play 'what if' games, sure.

If a person is exposed to any one of a thousand fatal diseases, they can
1) turn to science and seek medical treatment for their specific condition.
2) Pray to their favorite god to be cured, or protected or spared.

What do you estimate the comparative success rates of the two choices are, Learner? Note, the choice has to be pure. No praying to God for a scientist to figure out a cure using science-developed drugs or science-developed treatments, or scientific methods to keep the body alive longer while the natural healing system works at curing the body. (So no giving god the credit for science's advances)
How would you compare them?

 

[Keith&Co.]

The Amish and the like regardless of religion have done pretty good without technology of any kind.

Wrong. They have houses. Barns. They wear clothes. They have sewing machines. Ovens. They have all sorts of technology, Learner.
Unless you know of a plant that grows carriages, or something?

 

[funinspace]

Had to comment as Keith & Co made me notice it...and sure why not as this thread is relatively random anyway.

If a person today in the world of tech got lost in the deep woods or got left behind on a tour in the wilderness. That person would first die of fright before hunger and thirst kicked in because he or she is out of range for the i-phone.

Well, lots of people die for lots of stupid reasons...ergo the humorous Darwin Awards. Personally, I like the group of younger adults that were sitting on a couch and played Russian roulette with a semi-auto; two shot dead, the third critically wounded with just one shot.

I'm a IT guy. I have a home NAS; I work on big Unix servers...blah, blah blah. When I go into the woods, my day pack always has a first aid kit (with Chlorine dioxide tablets and waterproof matches) and a tube tent (also serves as a nice clean ground cover for lunch). I also make sure I know the possible weather conditions. I even know some of my regional natural edibles. I'd be fine for a few days.

This person has probably never really been interested in nature let alone learn to cook because of the microwave but says "they do make a mean double cheese with fries nearby and they ...er.... hold on theres a text". You know the story.

We make some of our own bacon. Our young pawpaw trees are getting their first ever blooms this week. Canning, got that. We make our own stock/broth. And sure we can make a mean double cheese with the farm meat we buy.

Captain Bligh....

 

[Learner]

okay. So let's play 'what if' games, sure.

If a person is exposed to any one of a thousand fatal diseases, they can
1) turn to science and seek medical treatment for their specific condition.
2) Pray to their favorite god to be cured, or protected or spared.

What do you estimate the comparative success rates of the two choices are, Learner? Note, the choice has to be pure. No praying to God for a scientist to figure out a cure using science-developed drugs or science-developed treatments, or scientific methods to keep the body alive longer while the natural healing system works at curing the body. (So no giving god the credit for science's advances)
How would you compare them?

Ok no praying to God for scientists etc to figure out. Quite restrictive obviously from my perspective, both would be Gods choices.

The best medicine is "prevention" is what I have always heard . You are what you eat or what you do to your body or how you live in a manner of speaking and according to God. Unfortunately in a busy world we rush about and have no time unless everything we do consists of a series of short cuts and quick fixes. (myself included)

 

[DrZoidberg]

Back up your claims about cults.

JW have caused a tremendous amount of harm and injury to people. People that I know.

List them.
No allegations or accusations. List the facts - things that you can prove.
If you can't, you are a slanderer and a liar!

You have a short memory. I already did once. Here you go again:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...fe-creationist&p=410949&viewfull=1#post410949

This is made very easy because JW is one of the worst offending cults out there, as well as having been extensively researched.

It's cute how you're pretending to be affronted by these obvious and well known facts. I suspect this isn't the first time you've been confronted with the crimes of JW.

Who is "saying" all of this? Do you think these words originate with a cult?:

Don't confuse JW with all of Christianity. There are plenty of Christians who aren't members of a cult. There are no words from the Bible you can use to defend the actions of JW. I'm sorry, but you can't. The good actions of non-JW Christians prove that much.

Before I go any further, will you answer this question that you seem to be trying to ignore?:
"When I turned down that job making injurious things, did I do something wrong?"

I don't know what injurious thing you were expected to make, so it's hard for me to have an opinion. I suspect that we have a different view of what is injurious.

 

[Learner]

The Amish and the like regardless of religion have done pretty good without technology of any kind.

Wrong. They have houses. Barns. They wear clothes. They have sewing machines. Ovens. They have all sorts of technology, Learner.
Unless you know of a plant that grows carriages, or something?

Oh I see .. As in, I mean't without technology (no clarification) like people crawling in the fields naked eating grass like cows and unable to do anything else? In this regard I was mistaken by wrong context.

 

[Keith&Co.]

okay. So let's play 'what if' games, sure.

If a person is exposed to any one of a thousand fatal diseases, they can
1) turn to science and seek medical treatment for their specific condition.
2) Pray to their favorite god to be cured, or protected or spared.

What do you estimate the comparative success rates of the two choices are, Learner? Note, the choice has to be pure. No praying to God for a scientist to figure out a cure using science-developed drugs or science-developed treatments, or scientific methods to keep the body alive longer while the natural healing system works at curing the body. (So no giving god the credit for science's advances)
How would you compare them?

Ok no praying to God for scientists etc to figure out. Quite restrictive obviously from my perspective, both would be Gods choices.

Except you jumped in on wilson's side. wilson's portraying all science as a sweeping, unnecessary evil.

The best medicine is "prevention" is what I have always heard . You are what you eat or what you do to your body or how you live in a manner of speaking and according to God. Unfortunately in a busy world we rush about and have no time unless everything we do consists of a series of short cuts and quick fixes. (myself included)

So, if you're exposed to Leprosy, your response is to hope you've been eating all your vegetables...

 

[wilson]

If a person today in the world of tech got lost in the deep woods or got left behind on a tour in the wilderness. That person would first die of fright before hunger and thirst kicked in because he or she is out of range for the i-phone.

This person has probably never really been interested in nature let alone learn to cook because of the microwave but says "they do make a mean double cheese with fries nearby and they ...er.... hold on theres a text". You know the story.

Science is the study of nature. Reality is the exact opposite of what you just wrote. I'm an engineer. If the disaster comes, I'll be fine.

You will not!
Scenario 1:
You are on the 68th floor of a building in midtown Manhattan.
Power goes out. No water, no elevator, no food, no gasoline, no telephone. no police.
Somehow, you get to the ground. Fighting in the streets, riots over food, people running in every direction, taking whatever they want; cops using their guns to obtain food. You manage to get to your house. No food, power, water. You grab your pets and kill them for food. No more pets, but kids are still alive, although skinny. You begin looking at them and licking your lips. YOU EAT THEM!
You think you won't?
It has happened before. Looking back at history:
Jerusalem was surrounded by the Babylonians. Its inhabitants were in dire straits.
From an eyewitness:
“. . .Those slain with the sword are better off than those slain by famine, Those who waste away, who are pierced through for lack of food from the field. י  The hands of compassionate women have boiled their own children. They have become their food of mourning during the breakdown of the daughter of my people.” (Lamentations 4:9, 10)
That was a time of tribulation. But Jesus said there is worse to come:
“. . .for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (Matthew 24:21, 22)

HOW WILL TRIED AND TESTED SERVANTS OF JEHOVAH MAKE OUT?
“. . .Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“Look! My servants will eat, but you will go hungry. Look! My servants will drink, but you will go thirsty. Look! My servants will rejoice, but you will suffer shame. 14 Look! My servants will shout joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, But you will cry out because of the pain of heart And you will wail because of a broken spirit.” (Isaiah 65:13, 14)

I can even help rebuild civilisation again. Can you? If you're stuck out in the wilderness your the only thing your Bible is good for is kindling.

You have to survive the Great Tribulation first.
How you gonna do that?
Kung Fu?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Wrong. They have houses. Barns. They wear clothes. They have sewing machines. Ovens. They have all sorts of technology, Learner.
Unless you know of a plant that grows carriages, or something?

Oh I see .. I mean't without technology ,(no clarification) as in people crawling in the fields naked eating grass like cows and unable to do anything else. In this regard I was mistakenly wrong.

You DID say

without technology of any kind.

SO, yes, i thought you mean without technology of any fucking kind.
Kind of hard, now, to figure where i got that idea...

But, hey, I guess i should have known you meant SOME technology of some kind, just not the most advanced technology. To make your point.
over the internet...

 

[wilson]

Back up your claims about cults.

List them.
No allegations or accusations. List the facts - things that you can prove.
If you can't, you are a slanderer and a liar!

You have a short memory. I already did once. Here you go again:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...fe-creationist&p=410949&viewfull=1#post410949

This is made very easy because JW is one of the worst offending cults out there, as well as having been extensively researched.

It's cute how you're pretending to be affronted by these obvious and well known facts. I suspect this isn't the first time you've been confronted with the crimes of JW.

I said - "no allegations or accusations." You didn't see that? There is no proof for any of those charges.
Now - proceed with the proof.

Before I go any further, will you answer this question that you seem to be trying to ignore?:
"When I turned down that job making injurious things, did I do something wrong?"

I don't know what injurious thing you were expected to make, so it's hard for me to have an opinion. I suspect that we have a different view of what is injurious.

I told you - making components for weapons to be used by the armed forces.
Now - try again:
Did I do something wrong?

 

[Learner]

You DID say

without technology of any kind.

SO, yes, i thought you mean without technology of any fucking kind.
Kind of hard, now, to figure where i got that idea...

But, hey, I guess i should have known you meant SOME technology of some kind, just not the most advanced technology. To make your point.
over the internet...

Well ... now we understand and my "mistake" is hopefully forgivable, (I don't know everything) all is good .

 

[Learner]

So, if you're exposed to Leprosy, your response is to hope you've been eating all your vegetables...

It helps .. but those that had it in the first place before passing it onto others could have been prevented maybe.