I have now met a real life creationist.

[DrZoidberg]

You were an unbeliever at some point.

Never.

What was your process to become convinced?

I had no "process," but humility helps a lot.

You're going to have to explain that to me, because that doesn't make any sense IMHO. The Abrahamic idea of God is a fairly philosophically complex theory.

People don't just spontaneously start believing in such a God. It has to be taught. That's the reason why all such faith stems from just a single source. It's a theory of Aristotle that Philo of Alexandria incorporated into Jewish philosophy. All Christians, Muslims and Pharisaic Jews base their belief system on the works of just those thinkers.

There has to have been a point when somebody explained the Abrahamic monotheistic theory of God. It's possible that you found it convincing right out the box. But you weren't born a Christian.

You are yourself evidence of that unbelievers can become believers

They can - but only if the condition of the heart is right.
“. . .When those of the nations (non-Jews) heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.” (Acts 13:48)

So if the condition of the heart is right, what arguments can convince such a person? What convinced you when your "heart is right".

I still remember when somebody tried to explain Abrahamic monotheism to me for the first time. It was a friend at school. We were a bunch of ten years old's struggling to get our heads around the basic concept. We though it sounded so bizarre we ended up asking our teacher if this is actually what some people believe. She said that it was and then gave us some platitude about that nobody really knows what is ultimately true and that we each have to find our own journey. I suspected that she was bullshitting me and that she was an atheist struggling incredibly hard to say something that didn't offend religious people. Hypothetical religious people since none of the children in my class had religious parents. I didn't understand why she wasn't honest with me and I remembered that it bothered me.

After that I had an idea of Christianity and I asked the teacher if the world wouldn't be a better place if everybody was a Christian. She told me that I'd fundamentally misunderstood Christianity and would do best to find a priest before making more claims about Christianity that were wrong. That was the end of my childhood religious education. I didn't come into contact with any religion again until I was an adult.

I suspect that it was more than my heart condition that wasn't right. I lived in a culture where nobody was Christian. Don't you think that's more of a factor?

A heart that longs for righteousness and truth, one that hates wickedness, violence and unjust profit, one that sees the oppression and injustice of the present system of things, plus a personal study of the bible and a comparison with other religious texts and practices is usually sufficient to start one on the road that leads to eternal life.

All that rings kind of hollow considering the person saying it is the member of a cult. A cult is a tool of oppression. Cults maintain control over the members through psychological violence. I think it is fundamentally wicked.

 

[funinspace]

Wilson philosophizing...a notion he finds foolish...

ar·range·ment
[əˈrānjmənt]

NOUN
the action, process, or result of arranging or being arranged:
"the arrangement of the furniture in the room"
synonyms: positioning · disposition · order · presentation · display · [more]
(arrangements)
plans or preparations for a future event:
"all the arrangements for the wedding were made"
music
a composition adapted for performance with different instruments or voices than those originally specified:
"Mozart's symphonies in arrangements for cello and piano"
synonyms: adaptation · orchestration · instrumentation
archaic
a settlement of a dispute or claim.

"Nature itself is an elaborate arrangement that operates in one direction. It cannot be reversed, transgressed nor ignored. Its laws keep that arrangement in place despite the passing of time and anything else. The laws also enable different aspects to co-operate with each other making the orderliness evident.
Every object in nature is part of that arrangement and nothing can be found that does not fit in with it.
Humans can criticize the designer, but they cannot escape the design."

Ah, you are back to this foolishness...playing word games is pretty comical, and you have something in common with Bill Clinton and his "is" game. No one outside of creationists utilize the word "arrangement" in the manor that you do. When other people use this word in relation to the cosmos, they are using the less clear intent of the synonym "formation". Your game has a more formal name: Argumentum ad dictionarium.

Not that you will care, but this page has a good example of why it is foolish.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_dictionarium

Suppose Alice and Bob are sat down having coffee. After a quick chat over stock prices, they descend into an argument. Alice, annoyed with Bob, decides to play a hilarious prank. Leaving the room she immediately runs to the dictionary on the book shelf. Finding the word "coffee", she scribbles out "beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant"[6] and replaces it with "a slimy sticky mixture of soil with a liquid, especially water". Not content that the joke has been played to its full potential, she leaves and runs to the head of Merriam-Webster, then the OED and then finally to Wiktionary itself - and by the powers of magic changes every definition of "coffee" in every dictionary on the planet. Alice then returns to the argument and Bob takes another drink.

So, what does Bob taste? A "beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant" or some "slimy sticky mixture of soil with water"?

The answer is obviously "beverage from roasted seeds of the coffee plant" and not muddy water, but every argumentum ad dictionarium suggests that somehow the change in definition can somehow affect the reality. It's only obvious here because this example is absurdly literal enough to show it clearly. More subtle examples can mask the fallacy.

 

[funinspace]

I'm an unbeliever that's been married to a believer for nearly 28 years.

But I'm sure That's Different™.

Of course it's different. You are not part of his special itty bitty sect, comprising only 0.1% of the worlds current population...

 

[atrib]

Step outside during the day and look up at the sky. You will see a bright ball of fire, which we call the Sun. The Sun has been radiating enormous amounts of energy over the past 4 billion years. Energy which allows plants to grow, and drives the water cycle on our planet. The energy of the Sun makes life possible on Earth. I am surprised you don't know this. Do they keep you locked up in a dark cell?

Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

Why not? Stopped by a natural law? You are still talking about laws of nature. That's not chaos.

No. Caused by the fact that energy differentials no longer exist in the universe. This is called heat death, where the entropy of the universe has reached a maximum, and the universe has become changeless and timeless. Basic science. Something you would know if you had bothered to keep up with the progress of science.

False prophecy!
This is earth's future:
“. . .The wilderness and the parched land will exult, And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron. *2 Without fail it will blossom; It will rejoice and shout for joy. The glory of Lebʹa·non will be given to it, The splendor of Carʹmel and of Sharʹon. They will see the glory of Jehovah, the splendor of our God. *3 Strengthen the weak hands, And make firm the knees that are shaking. *4 Say to those who are anxious at heart: “Be strong. Do not be afraid. Look! Your own God will come with vengeance, God will come with retribution. He will come and save you.” *5 At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened, And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. *6 At that time the lame will leap like the deer, And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert plain. *7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool, And the thirsty ground springs of water. In the lairs where jackals rested, There will be green grass and reeds and papyrus.” (Isaiah 35:1-7)

“. . .They will build houses and live in them, And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. 22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit, Nor will they plant for others to eat. For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree, And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, Nor will they bear children for distress, Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah, And their descendants with them. 24 Even before they call out, I will answer; While they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, The lion will eat straw just like the bull, And the serpent’s food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.” (Isaiah 65:21-25)

“. . .He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.” (Isaiah 25:8)

“. . .And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error.” (Isaiah 33:24)

“. . .With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:3, 4)

Even the old will be young again:
“. . .Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.’” (Job 33:25)

And even the dead will live again:
“ If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands.” (Job 14:14, 15)

“. . .And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. . .” (Acts 24:15)

“. . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28, 29)

You are an unbeliever, so this is of no interest to you.
That does not mean it will not happen.
And it is a much brighter future.

Nonsense. You have no evidence to support your claim that the prophecies of the Bible will come true. Our observations tell us that our universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate, and that the overall entropy of the universe is increasing. Science allows us to predict the fate of the universe based on our understand of how reality behaves. You have an old book written by Bronze Age goat herders. Sorry, I am not buying it.

In my experience, creationists are a lot like cockroaches. They tend to disappear when science turns the lights on. In this case, you have abandoned any semblance of debating the facts and resorted to quoting random scripture. Preaching is not allowed on these forums. Either you support your claims with facts and reason, or you stop making them.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Nonsense. You have no evidence to support your claim that the prophecies of the Bible will come true. Our observations tell us that our universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate, and that the overall entropy of the universe is increasing. Science allows us to predict the fate of the universe based on our understand of how reality behaves. You have an old book written by Bronze Age goat herders. Sorry, I am not buying it.

Bronze age, yes. But hardly goat herders. Writing down Christian theology assumes...

1) ...that you can write. Therefore the extreme elite of Jewish society. Not even 1% could read and write.
2) ...a firm grasp of Aristotelian philosophy. Because Christianity is Judaism with some of Aristotele's ideas worked in. So whoever came up with this and wrote it was rich and well educated.

And we also know who first introduced these ideas into Judaism, Philo of Alexandria. He was a rich, elite and philosopher. He wasn't the type of guy to rub shoulders with the poor. So whoever got hold of Philo's ideas to write them down in the Bible must have been in a position to come into contact with these ideas, ie rich, elite and and well educated.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm an unbeliever that's been married to a believer for nearly 28 years.

But I'm sure That's Different™.

Of course it's different. You are not part of his special itty bitty sect, comprising only 0.1% of the worlds current population...

JW's aren't just a sect. They're completely bonkers.

 

[wilson]

Never.

What was your process to become convinced?

I had no "process," but humility helps a lot.

You're going to have to explain that to me, because that doesn't make any sense IMHO.

Nope! I'm not going to have to do any such thing. Isn't that your problem? Makes a lot of sense to me.

The Abrahamic idea of God is a fairly philosophically complex theory.

Nope! If, by that, you mean the biblical expressions of God, it is not based on any human philosophy.

People don't just spontaneously start believing in such a God. It has to be taught.

Taught and accepted. If the teaching is not accepted, it is a waste of time. A person can believe something without accepting it. Don't challenge that!

That's the reason why all such faith stems from just a single source.

That's not true!
Monotheism and polytheism could not possible originate from any single source.

It's a theory of Aristotle that Philo of Alexandria incorporated into Jewish philosophy. All Christians, Muslims and Pharisaic Jews base their belief system on the works of just those thinkers.

Is that true? How do you know?

There has to have been a point when somebody explained the Abrahamic monotheistic theory of God.

There is no such theory.

It's possible that you found it convincing right out the box. But you weren't born a Christian.

How would you know?

You are yourself evidence of that unbelievers can become believers

They can - but only if the condition of the heart is right.
“. . .When those of the nations (non-Jews) heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.” (Acts 13:48)

So if the condition of the heart is right, what arguments can convince such a person?

What makes you think that arguments must be involved?
It has to do with your personality; your disposition, an innate love of what is right.
If it pleases you grab more than you need, to prosper at the expense of others, something is wrong with your disposition.

What convinced you when your "heart is right".

It is not for you to say.

A heart that longs for righteousness and truth, one that hates wickedness, violence and unjust profit, one that sees the oppression and injustice of the present system of things, plus a personal study of the bible and a comparison with other religious texts and practices is usually sufficient to start one on the road that leads to eternal life.

All that rings kind of hollow considering the person saying it is the member of a cult.

Saying what? Is something wrong with hating wickedness, violence, oppression, injustice and unjust profit? When I turned down that job making injurious things, did I do something wrong?
Who is "saying" all of this? Do you think these words originate with a cult?:
“. . .Those who acquit the wicked for a bribe And who deny justice to the righteous!” (Isaiah 5:23)
“. . .Woe to those who enact harmful regulations, Who constantly draft oppressive decrees, *2 To deny the legal claim of the poor, To deprive the lowly among my people of justice, Making widows their spoil And fatherless children their plunder!” (Isaiah 10:1, 2)
“. . .No, your own errors have separated you from your God. Your sins have made him hide his face from you, And he refuses to hear you. *3 For your palms are polluted with blood And your fingers with error. Your lips speak lies, and your tongue mutters unrighteousness. *4 No one calls out for righteousness, And no one goes to court in truthfulness. They trust in unreality and speak what is worthless. They conceive trouble and give birth to what is harmful. *5 They hatch the eggs of a poisonous snake, And they weave the cobweb of a spider. Anyone who eats their eggs would die, And the egg that is crushed hatches a viper. *6 Their cobweb will not serve as a garment, Nor will they cover themselves with what they make. Their works are harmful, And deeds of violence are in their hands. *7 Their feet run to do evil, And they hurry to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are harmful thoughts; Ruin and misery are in their ways. *8 They have not known the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks. They make their roadways crooked; No one treading on them will know peace. *9 That is why justice is far away from us, And righteousness does not overtake us. We keep hoping for light, but look! there is darkness; For brightness, but we keep walking in gloom. 10 We grope for the wall like blind men; Like those without eyes we keep groping. We stumble at high noon as in evening darkness; Among the strong we are just like the dead. 11 We all keep growling like bears And cooing mournfully like doves. We hope for justice, but there is none; For salvation, but it is far away from us. 12 For our revolts are many before you; Each of our sins testifies against us. For our revolts are with us; We well know our errors. 13 We have transgressed and denied Jehovah; We have turned our backs on our God. We have spoken of oppression and revolt; We have conceived lies and muttered false words from the heart. 14 Justice is driven back, And righteousness stands far off; For truth has stumbled in the public square, And what is upright is unable to enter. 15 Truth has vanished, And anyone who turns away from bad is plundered. Jehovah saw this and was displeased, For there was no justice.” (Isaiah 59:2-15)
“. . .“For from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them, every one is making for himself unjust gain; and from the prophet even to the priest, each one is acting falsely. 14 And they try to heal the breakdown of my people lightly, saying, ‘There is peace! There is peace!’ when there is no peace. 15 Did they feel shame because it was something detestable that they had done? For one thing, they positively do not feel any shame; for another thing, they have not come to know even how to feel humiliated. Therefore they will fall among those who are falling; in the time that I must hold an accounting with them they will stumble,” Jehovah has said.” (Jeremiah 6:13-15)
The corruption and injustice today is far worse that it was back then.
Cults have nothing to do with any of it.
It is a person's disposition that causes him to love the world's practices just as it is.

 

[wilson]

Step outside during the day and look up at the sky. You will see a bright ball of fire, which we call the Sun. The Sun has been radiating enormous amounts of energy over the past 4 billion years. Energy which allows plants to grow, and drives the water cycle on our planet. The energy of the Sun makes life possible on Earth. I am surprised you don't know this. Do they keep you locked up in a dark cell?

Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

Why not? Stopped by a natural law? You are still talking about laws of nature. That's not chaos.

No. Caused by the fact that energy differentials no longer exist in the universe. This is called heat death, where the entropy of the universe has reached a maximum, and the universe has become changeless and timeless. Basic science. Something you would know if you had bothered to keep up with the progress of science.

False prophecy!
This is earth's future:
“. . .The wilderness and the parched land will exult, And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron. *2 Without fail it will blossom; It will rejoice and shout for joy. The glory of Lebʹa·non will be given to it, The splendor of Carʹmel and of Sharʹon. They will see the glory of Jehovah, the splendor of our God. *3 Strengthen the weak hands, And make firm the knees that are shaking. *4 Say to those who are anxious at heart: “Be strong. Do not be afraid. Look! Your own God will come with vengeance, God will come with retribution. He will come and save you.” *5 At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened, And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. *6 At that time the lame will leap like the deer, And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert plain. *7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool, And the thirsty ground springs of water. In the lairs where jackals rested, There will be green grass and reeds and papyrus.” (Isaiah 35:1-7)

“. . .They will build houses and live in them, And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. 22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit, Nor will they plant for others to eat. For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree, And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, Nor will they bear children for distress, Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah, And their descendants with them. 24 Even before they call out, I will answer; While they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, The lion will eat straw just like the bull, And the serpent’s food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.” (Isaiah 65:21-25)

“. . .He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.” (Isaiah 25:8)

“. . .And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error.” (Isaiah 33:24)

“. . .With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:3, 4)

Even the old will be young again:
“. . .Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.’” (Job 33:25)

And even the dead will live again:
“ If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands.” (Job 14:14, 15)

“. . .And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. . .” (Acts 24:15)

“. . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28, 29)

You are an unbeliever, so this is of no interest to you.
That does not mean it will not happen.
And it is a much brighter future.

Nonsense. You have no evidence to support your claim that the prophecies of the Bible will come true. Our observations tell us that our universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate, and that the overall entropy of the universe is increasing. Science allows us to predict the fate of the universe based on our understand of how reality behaves. You have an old book written by Bronze Age goat herders. Sorry, I am not buying it.

Who's asking you to? You're much too smart for that - right?

In my experience, creationists are a lot like cockroaches. They tend to disappear when science turns the lights on. In this case, you have abandoned any semblance of debating the facts and resorted to quoting random scripture. Preaching is not allowed on these forums. Either you support your claims with facts and reason, or you stop making them.

Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity.
If you ask me questions, I will answer you my way. If you don't like my answers, don't ask me anything.
What happens when your funding for science runs out? You think that cannot happen? Why, then, were your scientists marching in the streets last week?

"Organizers want the march to be a non-partisan protest that addresses issues including government funding for scientists, transparency, climate change and evolution, according to the website." http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/politics/scientists-march-dc-trnd/index.html

"I'm really concerned about the role of science in federal decision-making. Right now, we're witnessing this administration and this congress try to dismantle the very process we use that allows science to inform decisions," Gretchen Goldman told Live Science." http://www.livescience.com/58766-march-for-science-2017-scientist-voices.html

"Among scientists, understandably, there is growing fear that fact-based decision making is losing its seat at the policy-making table. There’s also overwhelming frustration with the politicization of science by climate change skeptics and others who see it as threatening to their interests or beliefs."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/opinion/a-scientists-march-on-washington-is-a-bad-idea.html?_r=0

Without funds, your god will die.

 

[Elixir]

Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity.

Maybe... I don't know about that, but I know this: Science has saved more lives and enabled more construction than any other branch of human activity.

What happens when your funding for science runs out?

At this population level? People will starve and die of disease and dehydration.

What happens when funding for religious fleecers runs out? People get set free.

 

[Ford]

Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity.

And yet here you are, using a combination of things that would not exist without science.

Unless of course you prayed for your computer to appear out of nowhere.

 

[bilby]

Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity.

And yet here you are, using a combination of things that would not exist without science.

Unless of course you prayed for your computer to appear out of nowhere.

 

[wilson]

Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity.

And yet here you are, using a combination of things that would not exist without science.

Is it true or false?
Do you want a fact sheet?
I'll give you just one:
How many people have died violently since, and due to, the invention of gunpowder?
Maybe another:
What about the tons and tons of plastic garbage, choking the land and killing many sea creatures?
Can you name me an invention of science that has no serious side effects?

Unless of course you prayed for your computer to appear out of nowhere.

This is what becomes of them:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...E794FF8899AB5DAB78E601873495E0B0A&FORM=IQFRBA
and consider this:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...C3D921D427E805659CF1FDFCD93FC2A20&FORM=IQFRBA
And this:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...-31&sk=&cvid=7FCA352CCFDD45939798C7606555878D

Soon, you will run out of places to put them. Do you have a remedy for that? Does science?
People lived for many years without them. People will live for many more years without them.
Why do you think they are necessary for life?

 

[none]

you have to admit lots of people die from food poisoning
Just imagine how many people have been saved

 

[bilby]

For the entire period of this graph the world has been dominated by religion. Only the last 2 or 3 centuries had any real science, as we understand it today; and science has only been dominant over religion in the area of medicine, health care, and assistance for the sick and injured, for the last century or so.

During all of this time, birthrates have remained fairly stable. Here is the difference in mortality (mostly infant mortality) between the achievements of science, and those of religion:



Why is God so much worse at protecting babies from dying than science is?

 

[Ford]

And yet here you are, using a combination of things that would not exist without science.

Is it true or false?

It is true. You are using a computer. Don't know if it is a tablet, PC, laptop, or mobile device, but you are definitely using something that would not exist without an astonishing amount of science.

It is connected to a world-wide network that was created by scientists in the pursuit of science. Even the electricity which powers your computer is a result of science.

The best that religion could do was hand-written copies of holy books reserved to a handful of educated elites in palaces and monasteries. The parent company of your religion deliberately kept the masses illiterate and uneducated so that they could better spread the "word of god" by ironically not allowing people to actually read it. The printing press - a scientific advance to be sure - made widespread literacy possible by making books available to more than just a select few.

Yet you can strike a blow against science! If you believe it is truly evil, then take your computer outside, build a bonfire, and throw the demonic thing into the flames. If you really want to go all out, torch everything in your house that exists due to evil science. Hope you have a lot of firewood.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You're going to have to explain that to me, because that doesn't make any sense IMHO.

Nope! I'm not going to have to do any such thing. Isn't that your problem? Makes a lot of sense to me.

Isn't the point of communication to make others understand things? Isn't that why you said all this to begin with? Yes, it is my problem. But if you have an interest in helping me understand, it's also your problem.

The Abrahamic idea of God is a fairly philosophically complex theory.

Nope! If, by that, you mean the biblical expressions of God, it is not based on any human philosophy.

ha ha. For a Christian you seem bizarrely uninterested in Christianity and it's origins. The origins of Christianity isn't remotely controversial. It's well documented. The original works have survived.

People don't just spontaneously start believing in such a God. It has to be taught.

Taught and accepted. If the teaching is not accepted, it is a waste of time. A person can believe something without accepting it. Don't challenge that!

Ok, progress. Why did you accept it?

That's the reason why all such faith stems from just a single source.

That's not true!
Monotheism and polytheism could not possible originate from any single source.

What's the point in denying things that we know for a fact? I don't know why you brought in polytheism into this. The origins of polytheism is lost in history. Abrahamic monotheism is not. BTW, you've got to add "Abrahamic" to it. The idea of monotheism has popped up several times in different places. Abrahamic monotheism is far from the first or oldest form of monotheism.

It's a theory of Aristotle that Philo of Alexandria incorporated into Jewish philosophy. All Christians, Muslims and Pharisaic Jews base their belief system on the works of just those thinkers.

Is that true? How do you know?

Because their works have survived. Back in the day Aristotle and Philo were famous people. It was common knowledge among the elite. You know, the type of people who could read and write. Who ever wrote the Bible must have belonged to that elite. Christian monks made sure the works survived into modern times. This in spite of a long list of popes continually banning the works and ordering them to be destroyed. Many popes found the idea that the father of their religion was pagan, as quite distressing. But enough Christian monks cared more about what was true than the pope's sensitive feelings. So they defied the many bans. Not only did Aristotle's works survive but was taught at priest seminaries. This too in defiance of papal bans.

Anyway... you would know all this if you gave a shit about your own religion. The information is all out there if you care to look for it. What I've told you is not the slightest bit controversial.

There has to have been a point when somebody explained the Abrahamic monotheistic theory of God.

There is no such theory.

I'm so confused now. I was using the colloquial form of "theory". I'm aware that if we use scientific terminology the idea of the Christian God is just a hypothesis.

Let's call it the "idea" of God. It means the same thing. But perhaps is a word you understand the meaning of?

It's possible that you found it convincing right out the box. But you weren't born a Christian.

How would you know?

Because humans left to their own devices tend to be animist. We know this because of psychological research. That would have been true for you as well.

If spontaneously being an Abrahamic monotheist was possible it would have happened somewhere in the world. But it hasn't. Not ever. Religions are always taught.

All that rings kind of hollow considering the person saying it is the member of a cult.

Saying what? Is something wrong with hating wickedness, violence, oppression, injustice and unjust profit? When I turned down that job making injurious things, did I do something wrong?
Who is "saying" all of this? Do you think these words originate with a cult?:
“. . .Those who acquit the wicked for a bribe And who deny justice to the righteous!” (Isaiah 5:23)
“. . .Woe to those who enact harmful regulations, Who constantly draft oppressive decrees, *2 To deny the legal claim of the poor, To deprive the lowly among my people of justice, Making widows their spoil And fatherless children their plunder!” (Isaiah 10:1, 2)
“. . .No, your own errors have separated you from your God. Your sins have made him hide his face from you, And he refuses to hear you. *3 For your palms are polluted with blood And your fingers with error. Your lips speak lies, and your tongue mutters unrighteousness. *4 No one calls out for righteousness, And no one goes to court in truthfulness. They trust in unreality and speak what is worthless. They conceive trouble and give birth to what is harmful. *5 They hatch the eggs of a poisonous snake, And they weave the cobweb of a spider. Anyone who eats their eggs would die, And the egg that is crushed hatches a viper. *6 Their cobweb will not serve as a garment, Nor will they cover themselves with what they make. Their works are harmful, And deeds of violence are in their hands. *7 Their feet run to do evil, And they hurry to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are harmful thoughts; Ruin and misery are in their ways. *8 They have not known the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks. They make their roadways crooked; No one treading on them will know peace. *9 That is why justice is far away from us, And righteousness does not overtake us. We keep hoping for light, but look! there is darkness; For brightness, but we keep walking in gloom. 10 We grope for the wall like blind men; Like those without eyes we keep groping. We stumble at high noon as in evening darkness; Among the strong we are just like the dead. 11 We all keep growling like bears And cooing mournfully like doves. We hope for justice, but there is none; For salvation, but it is far away from us. 12 For our revolts are many before you; Each of our sins testifies against us. For our revolts are with us; We well know our errors. 13 We have transgressed and denied Jehovah; We have turned our backs on our God. We have spoken of oppression and revolt; We have conceived lies and muttered false words from the heart. 14 Justice is driven back, And righteousness stands far off; For truth has stumbled in the public square, And what is upright is unable to enter. 15 Truth has vanished, And anyone who turns away from bad is plundered. Jehovah saw this and was displeased, For there was no justice.” (Isaiah 59:2-15)
“. . .“For from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them, every one is making for himself unjust gain; and from the prophet even to the priest, each one is acting falsely. 14 And they try to heal the breakdown of my people lightly, saying, ‘There is peace! There is peace!’ when there is no peace. 15 Did they feel shame because it was something detestable that they had done? For one thing, they positively do not feel any shame; for another thing, they have not come to know even how to feel humiliated. Therefore they will fall among those who are falling; in the time that I must hold an accounting with them they will stumble,” Jehovah has said.” (Jeremiah 6:13-15)
The corruption and injustice today is far worse that it was back then.
Cults have nothing to do with any of it.
It is a person's disposition that causes him to love the world's practices just as it is.

How about judging people on what they do, rather than what they say what they do? JW's say one thing and do another IMHO. JW have caused a tremendous amount of harm and injury to people. People that I know.

If you truly hate wickedness, violence, oppression, injustice and unjust profit then you can prove it by leaving JW. JW is an incredibly rich organisation. Did they become rich by unjust profiteering, or is it just unjust when other people do it? I'm not saying that JW's are bad people. But JW makes good people do bad things.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity.
If you ask me questions, I will answer you my way. If you don't like my answers, don't ask me anything.
What happens when your funding for science runs out? You think that cannot happen? Why, then, were your scientists marching in the streets last week?

Norman Borlaug. There's a scientist who alone has saved more lives than all religion put together.

Graham MacGregor. He also has saved more lives than all practitioners or religion put together. Just by himself.

How about Fritz Haber? Also has, alone, saved more lives than all of religion put together.

I'll grant you that science has wrought death, destruction and havoc to many drosophilia melanogaster and lab rats. But apart from that science has done a good job. Even the inventors of the atomic bomb. You need to square that against all the benefits of nuclear power.

BTW, I hope you are aware that if we don't base our decisions on facts we're basing them on ignorance? I find it amusing that you think that flying blind is a better option than knowing where we're going. Yes, without funding for science it will be hard to learn stuff. But in what way will that benefit you?

 

[DrZoidberg]

How many people have died violently since, and due to, the invention of gunpowder?

... in wars of religion. If people hadn't been religious a hell of a lot less people had died from gunpowder. But gunpowder also gave us dynamite. Which has helped the world in countless ways. The net benefit of gunpowder vastly overshadows the loss of life from wars involving gunpowder. Also, people have killed each other in every age. As science progresses we've been killing each other less and less. We live in the most peaceful era in history. All thanks to science.

What about the tons and tons of plastic garbage, choking the land and killing many sea creatures?
Can you name me an invention of science that has no serious side effects?

But that needs to be squared against the massive boon to our world from plastic. You probably have clean water coming out your tap at home. All thanks to scientist Eugen Baumann. Before plastic it was common for children to die as infants. And we didn't know why.

The side effects always need to be squared against the benefit. If you walk anywhere you risk killing bugs. So is the conclusion that we stop walking anywhere?

Unless of course you prayed for your computer to appear out of nowhere.

This is what becomes of them:

Soon, you will run out of places to put them. Do you have a remedy for that? Does science?

We will never run out of places to put them. The way landfills work is that when they're full we pave them over and build cities on top of them. We've been doing that for 10 000 years. It will never be a problem. This is a problem that "science" solved from back when we built the first mud hut. I find it hilarious that this is something that keeps you up at night

People lived for many years without them. People will live for many more years without them.
Why do you think they are necessary for life?

But why do you? You clearly think they are necessary for life or you wouldn't have one, and you wouldn't be on this forum discussing. You can answer that question yourself.

Wilson, I find is fascinating how you've managed to get through life and learn so little about it. These are all questions that you should have learned to answer in school, yourself. I think it's pretty sad that you need our help to understand the most basic facts about life.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Which is not what you said:

"We have arranged nature into categories to better understand it. But nature didn't."

Is this your effort at correcting that error?

It is exactly what I said. When you misunderstood what I said, I said the same thing in a different way in the hope that you now would understand me. Well.... did you?

The sea is never chaotic. It ALWAYS works for the good of its inhabitants. That's not chaos.

I don't even know what to say. You seem so bizarrely ignorant about pretty much everything, it's hard to find metaphors that might speak to you. I'm sure to tell that to all the inhabitants plagued by the multitude of parasites and predators trying to kill them. There's a very good reason our ancestors migrated onto land. It was a hell of a lot safer.

It's the second law of thermodynamics.

No "law" is chaotic. It is steady, consistent and can be relied upon. That's not chaos.

It's so well established that I'm struggling to come up with examples.

You are contradicting yourself. Anything "established" is not chaotic.

Everything is an example of increased entropy.

That's a law. That's not chaos.

This is just word play and games with logic. Are we playing or are we having a discussion? I'd rather have a discussion.

Can you come up with an example of a situation where entropy doesn't increase?

No. And that is what makes abiogenesis and evolution impossible.

What? You just agreed with me. And then go on to contradict yourself.

Chaos is the last stage of increasing entropy. It's the stage where things can't fall apart more.

Why not? Stopped by a natural law? You are still talking about laws of nature. That's not chaos.

ha ha ha. No, they're not stopped by a natural law. These aren't legal laws. The natural laws can't stop anything. They're just a handy way to label nature as to make it easier to talk about. But it only works if you can be bothered to learn what the labels actually mean.

For all we know chaos isn't the final stage. But when something has become chaotic the last 13.7 billion years they stay that way. 13.7 billion years is what scientists call, a very long time. So long it can for practical purposes be equated with eternity. That's why we created a law, to make it easier for us to understand. It's a shortcut. If somebody says, "I saw a tree fall upward and right itself". We can say, "how much have you had to drink, Larry?" We don't have to go and see for ourselves. That's what laws of nature are for. They're to help us avoid wasting time on investigating things that have been exhaustively investigated already. If you learn them they speed up the understanding of all kinds of things.

An anecdote. When I was young a friend of the family was a physicist. She had loads of plants. I asked her the names of them. She didn't know many. But her plants were incredibly well taken care of and extremely healthy. I asked her how she knew how to take care of the plants if she didn't know their names. She said, "it's just basic physics and chemistry. If you know science well you can work out how to take care of any plant". And then she explained her system to me. I've used the same system to take care of my plants as well. I still haven't been bothered to read up on horticulturalism, because my grasp of physics and chemistry have made it redundant. See how easy life gets if you can be bothered to learn science properly?

So far, you have failed to name a single example of chaos in nature.
Want to try something else?

Shades of Metacrock.

 

[wilson]

Is it true or false?

It is true. You are using a computer. Don't know if it is a tablet, PC, laptop, or mobile device, but you are definitely using something that would not exist without an astonishing amount of science.

It is connected to a world-wide network that was created by scientists in the pursuit of science. Even the electricity which powers your computer is a result of science. The best that religion could do was hand-written copies of holy books reserved to a handful of educated elites in palaces and monasteries.

Biblical history goes back to the beginning of humanity. Science has only guesses.

The parent company of your religion deliberately kept the masses illiterate and uneducated so that they could better spread the "word of god" by ironically not allowing people to actually read it. The printing press - a scientific advance to be sure - made widespread literacy possible by making books available to more than just a select few.

You are talking about Christendom. We did not originate with them. They made huge efforts to restrict and prohibit the proliferation of the Holy Bible by vigilante activities, burning people with copies of the bible tied around their necks and prohibiting the printing of scripture. Didn't know that, did you? They are fake Christians with a horrific history of violence, injustice and hatred. We don't have that history. They have slaughtered people in the name of Jesus! We spend a great deal of effort exposing their hypocrisy. So sorry you can't tell the difference.

What awaits false and violent religion?:
“. . .At this a loud voice came out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders, and there was a great earthquake unlike any that had occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive and so great was the earthquake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great (the world empire of false religion) was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.” (Revelation 16:17-19)

JWs have listened to the divine warning and gotten OUT of false religion:
“. . .And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.” (Revelation 18:4-8)

Yes! ALL false religion will be destroyed before the end of this system of things arrives.

Yet you can strike a blow against science! If you believe it is truly evil, then take your computer outside, build a bonfire, and throw the demonic thing into the flames. If you really want to go all out, torch everything in your house that exists due to evil science. Hope you have a lot of firewood.

That "blow" will be struck, but not by me. And it will be permanent!
I already told you : "....and he will bring to (their) ruin, those ruining the earth." (Rev. 11:18)
Are humans not ruining the earth?
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...0A&FORM=IQFRBA
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...20&FORM=IQFRBA
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...98C7606555878D

Your cities will be leveled, just as Isaiah prophesied:
“. . .At this I said: “How long, O Jehovah?” Then he said: “Until the cities crash in ruins without an inhabitant And the houses are without people And the land is ruined and desolate; 12 Until Jehovah removes men far away And the deserted condition of the land becomes very extensive.” (Isaiah 6:11, 12)

It is true. You are using a computer. Don't know if it is a tablet, PC, laptop, or mobile device, but you are definitely using something that would not exist without an astonishing amount of science.

Don't be silly!
My statement was:
"Science has caused more death and destruction than any other branch of human activity."
Is it true or false?

Now - try again.

 

[Learner]

If a person today in the world of tech got lost in the deep woods or got left behind on a tour in the wilderness. That person would first die of fright before hunger and thirst kicked in because he or she is out of range for the i-phone.

This person has probably never really been interested in nature let alone learn to cook because of the microwave but says "they do make a mean double cheese with fries nearby and they ...er.... hold on theres a text". You know the story.