Tesla, not very green

[Bronzeage]

Basic reason would suggest a $100,000 sports car is not an environmentally friendly car. An environmentally friendly car is going to look like something somewhere between a 1992 geo metro and a motorcycle. Teslas are toys for rich people.

Basic reason would suggest a car manufacturer that has not yet made a profit, would not be worth more than Ford Motor Company, a firm which has shown consistent profits for over a century. Reason, basic, or any other kind, doesn't seem to apply to this problem.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

1M4T is a bit strong. The Tesla S seats 5. This is a true 1M4T concept:
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I hear you though: cars often have only one person in them. But the concept of individual mobility has many advantages, which is why people drive even in places with strong transit.
So while I do support more investment in transit (which lacks a lot in cities like Atlanta) I do not think we should dismiss developments in car technology either.

I spent most of my working life in the car business, so I understand individual mobility. If we want to have a 1M4T system, we expect our government to build an all weather paved road from our door, to wherever we want to drive. That's fair enough, but we also expect 200 square feet of real estate to be reserved for our car, in whatever place we want to go. For a business with 20 employees, that is 4000 square feet of concrete, plus more if customers are expected to show up. This means the business can only cater to employees and customers who can afford a car.

I'm old enough to have witnessed the decline and decay of my city's downtown area. Suburban malls and suburban housing developments took residents and commerce away, so small businesses could not survive. Whenever someone wanted to make use of the cheap downtown real estate, the problem was always parking. Mass transit, as a viable alternative to a car, simply does not exist. That is by design, for many reasons, but it is reality.

In a world with finite resources, there isn't enough money to build two parallel infrastructures. We can't provide a road from here to there, with parking space at both ends for everyone, and an efficient mass transit system at the same time.

A Tesla is a fine car, but its market is people whose economic situation gives them many choices. The infrastructure which makes the Tesla an attractive way to get around, limits the choice of people less well off. Their only choice is to get a car. Which car, is immaterial. A large part of their income goes to pay for the car that gets them to their job, which they have to have to make money to pay for the car.

The buses in my city run on Natural Gas. I also don't see why they couldn't be electric and plugged into a solar power source. If mileage is an issue they can be swapped out no?

aa

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think the issue is simply the battery. Presumably the natural gas engine can run a long time. A battery will die eventually.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

You guys sound like a bunch of grumpy old men. Solar doesn't solve all of our environmental problems immediately. So what? Let's don't even start? Let's not make progress? I don't get it.

aa

 

[barbos]

You guys sound like a bunch of grumpy old men. Solar doesn't solve all of our environmental problems immediately. So what? Let's don't even start? Let's not make progress? I don't get it.

aa

maybe, but what I said about Tesla wall-battery is true, it's a shitty idea.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

You guys sound like a bunch of grumpy old men. Solar doesn't solve all of our environmental problems immediately. So what? Let's don't even start? Let's not make progress? I don't get it.

aa

maybe, but what I said about Tesla wall-battery is true, it's a shitty idea.

Forever? It can't be improved upon?

aa

 

[Loren Pechtel]

From your article: The calculation is based on the assumption that the electricity mix used by the battery factory consists of energy generated by more than 50% fossil fuels.

I don't agree with this. Tesla also markets solar cell roofs and will surely use them to power his factories which are located in a sun environment.

But then you need to look at the CO2 released making those solar cells.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1. It relies on a specific energy mix being used. But if the battery factory uses their own solar power the issue of local power mix is moot. (RVonse already brought that one up). The article also seems to lump all fossil fuels together even though there are big differences in specific emissions between coal and natural gas.

It's doing the correct thing and going on averages.

2. It has to be remembered that this is an industry that is still early in its development cycle. Battery technology will become more efficient both in operation and manufacture, and power grid mix will evolve in the next decades. Remember, electric car technology will never become mature if we do not start with development at all. Also to remember is that ICE technology is extremely mature - modern ICE engines have been developed for about 150 years now. Incremental improvements these days require rather complex technology (such as variable valve timing for example). Major improvements are unlikely to come in the future. We need something new.

Things may become more green in the future. That doesn't say they are green now.

3. An electric car has a much simpler powertrain than an ICE car. The motor itself is much simpler than an engine, having only one moving part.

As opposed to:

Big problem here--most of those parts in the second image don't move.

5. While energy use and CO₂ emissions are certainly important they are not everything. Air pollution is a big deal, as could be seen from the VW diesel cheating scandal. As is pollution of soil and water through fluid leaks and spills. EVs do not use liquid fuels or engine oil or coolant. We should not neglect these advantages.

I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to electric cars. It's just they aren't greener than normal cars yet.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to electric cars. It's just they aren't greener than normal cars yet.

According to what? The hack job website you cited which "cites" a study in a different language, but doesn't seem to actually link to it?

I remember similar efforts against the Insight and Prius, but their math needed the average distance a hybrid drove lifetime being around 60k to 80k miles.

I can accept electrics may have issues with green, but I don't see an argument showing it as such. When one needs to cite rare earth metal mining as part of the footprint, when that rare earth metals were going to be mined regardless is biased.

 

[ZiprHead]

3. An electric car has a much simpler powertrain than an ICE car. The motor itself is much simpler than an engine, having only one moving part.

As opposed to:

Big problem here--most of those parts in the second image don't move.

Dafuq? The vast majority of those parts in the second pic move. Do you know how an ICE engine works?

 

[bilby]

Big problem here--most of those parts in the second image don't move.

Dafuq? The vast majority of those parts in the second pic move. Do you know how an ICE engine works?

Any part of a car that doesn't move is going to be left behind as soon as you start driving.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Big problem here--most of those parts in the second image don't move.

Dafuq? The vast majority of those parts in the second pic move. Do you know how an ICE engine works?

And/or fouled by carbon. Dafuq indeed.
Maybe he's referring to their current unassembled state.

 

[Bronzeage]

[

snip
I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to electric cars. It's just they aren't greener than normal cars yet.

I do know something about internal combustion engines. I didn't do an actual count, but if we got down to small pieces like the valve spring retainers and keepers, (96 pieces, right there) most of the pieces in this picture could be classified as moving parts, whether the vehicle is in motion, or even with engine shut down.

It's a very complicated machine and the very most complicated part is the funny little box laying inside the ignition control harness. For some reason, the cover has been taken off and the circuit board is exposed. This is the Engine Control Module. This device has allowed the development of hardware which has increased the fuel efficiency(measured at the tires) from a sad 9%(back when I worried about this sort of thing, as an occupation) up to a crazy 20%. I never thought I would live to see it, but here we are.

There is a simple reason we drove around for about a century, content with only 9% efficiency, and that was because it was the best there was. Nothing can compete with a gasoline engine for it's combination of power, versatility, and weight. It can operate in any environment on this planet. South Pole, Sahara Desert, there's a gasoline engine that will start up and run with the push of a button. Those days are coming to an end and not a bit too soon.

 

[OLDMAN]

Most of the parts are probably cut or assembled from pre-made die cast. So, like the tires are made using conventional methods. Like solar panels and windmills they produce co2 when made....a fact most people miss. When I make a sign to protest against deforestation and oil production, it shouldn't be painted on wood.

 

[LordKiran]

Most of the parts are probably cut or assembled from pre-made die cast. So, like the tires are made using conventional methods. Like solar panels and windmills they produce co2 when made....a fact most people miss. When I make a sign to protest against deforestation and oil production, it shouldn't be painted on wood.

Naked flesh is a far superior canvas.

 

[ZiprHead]

[

snip
I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to electric cars. It's just they aren't greener than normal cars yet.

I do know something about internal combustion engines. I didn't do an actual count, but if we got down to small pieces like the valve spring retainers and keepers, (96 pieces, right there) most of the pieces in this picture could be classified as moving parts, whether the vehicle is in motion, or even with engine shut down.

I thought about doing a count of my own but, why bother? It's Loren.

ETA: Could you get a good look at the engine cover? Looks like a BMW M V8 but can't say for sure. Whatever it is, twin turbo V8, saweet!

 

[Deepak]

I do know something about internal combustion engines. I didn't do an actual count, but if we got down to small pieces like the valve spring retainers and keepers, (96 pieces, right there) most of the pieces in this picture could be classified as moving parts, whether the vehicle is in motion, or even with engine shut down.

I thought about doing a count of my own but, why bother? It's Loren.

ETA: Could you get a good look at the engine cover? Looks like a BMW M V8 but can't say for sure. Whatever it is, twin turbo V8, saweet!

It's an S63

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to electric cars. It's just they aren't greener than normal cars yet.

According to what? The hack job website you cited which "cites" a study in a different language, but doesn't seem to actually link to it?

I remember similar efforts against the Insight and Prius, but their math needed the average distance a hybrid drove lifetime being around 60k to 80k miles.

I can accept electrics may have issues with green, but I don't see an argument showing it as such. When one needs to cite rare earth metal mining as part of the footprint, when that rare earth metals were going to be mined regardless is biased.

You count the rare earths that the electric car needs that the gasoline one doesn't. You don't get to simply say they would have been mined anyway.

And note that this not the first report of the lack of greenness of Teslas. As it currently stands electric cars are one of these feel-good things, not an actual environmental benefit. When our powerplants are carbon free then electric cars will be green, but not until then.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Big problem here--most of those parts in the second image don't move.

Dafuq? The vast majority of those parts in the second pic move. Do you know how an ICE engine works?

There's an awful lot of housing parts in the second picture. Perhaps if you count each component of the sets of identical ones you get more moving parts than stationary ones.

 

[ZiprHead]

I thought about doing a count of my own but, why bother? It's Loren.

ETA: Could you get a good look at the engine cover? Looks like a BMW M V8 but can't say for sure. Whatever it is, twin turbo V8, saweet!

It's an S63

Ah, a Merc. Thanks.