A Reason the Middle East Is Chronically Unstable: Brideprice

[Trausti]

The Middle East and most of Asia are culturally different than the West. While it is fashionable to attribute instability in these areas to events long ago by Westerners, the inexorable impediment these places have in forming stable and prosperous democracies may be largely cultural.

Approximately seventy-five percent of the world's population lives in countries where asset exchange upon marriage is obligatory. Rising brideprice—money or gifts provided to a woman's family by the groom and his family as part of marriage arrangements—is a common if overlooked catalyst of violent conflict. In patrilineal (and some matrilineal) societies where brideprice is practiced, a man's social status is directly connected to his marital status. Brideprice acts as a flat tax that is prone to sudden and swift increases. As a result, rising brideprice can create serious marriage market distortions that prevent young men, especially those who are poor or otherwise marginalized, from marrying. This phenomenon is especially evident in polygamous societies, where wealthy men can afford more than one bride. These distortions incentivize extra-legal asset accumulation, whether through ad hoc raiding or organized violence. In such situations, rebel and terror groups may offer to pay brideprice—or even provide brides—to recruit new members. Descriptive case studies of Boko Haram in Nigeria and various armed groups in South Sudan demonstrate these linkages, while an examination of Saudi Arabia's cap on brideprice and its efforts to arrange low-cost mass weddings illustrates the ways in which governments can intervene in marriage markets to help prevent brideprice-related instability. The trajectory of brideprice is an important but neglected early indicator of societal instability and violent conflict, underscoring that the situation and security of women tangibly affect national security.

In Plain Sight: The Neglected Linkage between Brideprice and Violent Conflict

It is perhaps not too surprising that most of the, ahem, "refugees" that poured into Europe in the last two years were young unmarried men.

 

[barbos]

Well, chimps have the same problem, whereas bonobo, thanks to their liberal sex practices, have no terrorism.

 

[untermensche]

The ME has been made chronically unstable through endless intrusion by the West. Massive endless intrusions into every aspect of life.

It's democracies destroyed. Dictatorships supported and defended. Saudi Arabia is the leading cause of the spread of Islamic fundamentalism.

The massive US terrorism and decade of torture in Iraq which gave us ISIS.

Western support for the murderous Israeli regime.

It is a joke to say the instability we have seen in the ME is the fault of the people living there.

 

[Derec]

The ME has been made chronically unstable through endless intrusion by the West.

Well, they started it.



Amazing how wars of aggression started by Muslims are never condemned. Crusades, started to liberate the Holy Land from Muslim invaders, have become a byword, but the Islamic invasion of the Levant that preceded the Crusades is never condemned, as if ownership of the Levant is somehow Islamic birthright. Btw, that unjustified belief also goes into anti-Israel attitudes because how dare these Jews encroach on "Islamic Land" even though there was Israel long before Mohammed ever pretended to talk to Gabriel or had fucked his 9 year old wife.

Massive endless intrusions into every aspect of life.

You are describing the Muslim religion.

t's democracies destroyed.

LMAO! What democracies?

Saudi Arabia is the leading cause of the spread of Islamic fundamentalism.

True. But it is not the West that
And if US did not prop up the Saudi regime, what would arise from the ashes would be even worse, probably very much Islamic State like. Western-Saudi relations are a good example of Realpolitik.

The massive US terrorism and decade of torture in Iraq which gave us ISIS.

No. Islamic ideology gave us the Islamic State.

Western support for the murderous Israeli regime.

West is not supporting Israel enough. For example, US and EU have still not stopped financing the PA, even though there is ample evidence that PA uses those moneys to finance blood money for terrorists.

It is a joke to say the instability we have seen in the ME is the fault of the people living there.

It is definitely the fault of people living there. Worldviews matter. Culture matters.

 

[untermensche]

It's democracies destroyed.

LMAO! What democracies?

There are these things called history books.

You should look into it.

They will explain how history is divided by the Industrial Revolution. Post Industrial Revolution history is nothing but Western interference and torture in the ME.

Join the party. Join the modern world.

 

[Derec]

There are these things called history books.

No kidding. But my question was rhetorical.

You should look into it.

Maybe you should too. I know Mosaddegh is the go-to example. And he comes the closest I guess. But he was no real democrat. When you take "rule by decree" powers (as he did in 1952/53) or stop the voting while he was ahead (as he did in 1951) you are not really a democrat. He also basically stole British and American oil assets.

And while the Shah in the 1954-1979 era had his issues, he was orders of magnitude better than the theocratic dictatorship the Islamic Revolution, supported by Marxists and other Leftists (plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose)brought the people of Iran.

Join the party. Join the modern world.

I have. The problem is that the Muslim World (and therefore most of the ME) refuses to do so.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Don't you love patriarchy?

 

[rousseau]

My best guess as to why the middle-east is under-developed:

Islamic societies are classically more religious than Christian ones. Islam isn't just one aspect of Muslim way of life, it is the Muslim way of life. In Islamic societies women are subordinate to men, and everyone is subordinate to God. Atheists, scientists, free-thinkers in this type of culture.. well, they don't fare well.

Where Europe differed in it's history is that it became a central point to the Global economy when the America's were discovered, and then business interests, and industrial innovation started to take precedence over religion. A lot people basically said: fuck religion, it's impeding my ability to make money, and thus ended the medieval era (somewhat analogous to the modern Middle-East).

And then once a number of super-powers developed in Europe they began to destabilize other parts of the world, including the Middle-East.

So I'd argue that a part of the reason is cultural, but another big part of it is geographic and historical coincidence. Because Europe and proto-Europe's were the first dominant regions of the world, many other areas were systemically under-developed, as these proto-Europe's began exploiting them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The ME has been made chronically unstable through endless intrusion by the West. Massive endless intrusions into every aspect of life.

It's democracies destroyed. Dictatorships supported and defended. Saudi Arabia is the leading cause of the spread of Islamic fundamentalism.

The massive US terrorism and decade of torture in Iraq which gave us ISIS.

Western support for the murderous Israeli regime.

It is a joke to say the instability we have seen in the ME is the fault of the people living there.

You need a major dose of reality.

What Middle East democracies? There have been a few short-term flirtations with democracy that never last. And the problems in the Middle East predate any western actions there.

 

[untermensche]

No kidding. But my question was rhetorical.

You should look into it.

Maybe you should too. I know Mosaddegh is the go-to example. And he comes the closest I guess. But he was no real democrat. When you take "rule by decree" powers (as he did in 1952/53) or stop the voting while he was ahead (as he did in 1951) you are not really a democrat. He also basically stole British and American oil assets.

And while the Shah in the 1954-1979 era had his issues, he was orders of magnitude better than the theocratic dictatorship the Islamic Revolution, supported by Marxists and other Leftists (plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose)brought the people of Iran.

Join the party. Join the modern world.

I have. The problem is that the Muslim World (and therefore most of the ME) refuses to do so.

Iran is the clearest example of the West deliberately destroying a democracy that existed. A heinous crime that directly led to fundamentalists seizing power.

But supporting dictators is how you prevent democracy from ever happening.

Since the Industrial Revolution the West has interfered into the internal political situation of every single nation in the ME.

It has destroyed countless lives and prevented unknown progress. It has supported despot after despot destroyed democratic growth wherever it has popped up.

What we are seeing now from the ME is the chaos and blowback for decades of abuse and torture from the West.

- - - Updated - - -

What Middle East democracies? There have been a few short-term flirtations with democracy that never last. And the problems in the Middle East predate any western actions there.

There have been many democratic movements.

None supported by the US.

The apartheid state of Israel does not count. That nation is only partially democratic.

 

[LordKiran]

Well, they started it.
View attachment 12628
View attachment 12629

Amazing how wars of aggression started by Muslims are never condemned. Crusades, started to liberate the Holy Land from Muslim invaders, have become a byword, but the Islamic invasion of the Levant that preceded the Crusades is never condemned, as if ownership of the Levant is somehow Islamic birthright. Btw, that unjustified belief also goes into anti-Israel attitudes because how dare these Jews encroach on "Islamic Land" even though there was Israel long before Mohammed ever pretended to talk to Gabriel or had fucked his 9 year old wife.

Massive endless intrusions into every aspect of life.

You are describing the Muslim religion.

t's democracies destroyed.

LMAO! What democracies?

Saudi Arabia is the leading cause of the spread of Islamic fundamentalism.

True. But it is not the West that
And if US did not prop up the Saudi regime, what would arise from the ashes would be even worse, probably very much Islamic State like. Western-Saudi relations are a good example of Realpolitik.

The massive US terrorism and decade of torture in Iraq which gave us ISIS.

No. Islamic ideology gave us the Islamic State.

Western support for the murderous Israeli regime.

West is not supporting Israel enough. For example, US and EU have still not stopped financing the PA, even though there is ample evidence that PA uses those moneys to finance blood money for terrorists.

It is a joke to say the instability we have seen in the ME is the fault of the people living there.

It is definitely the fault of people living there. Worldviews matter. Culture matters.

Lol pre-medieval expansion into Iberia? What a joke. I guess if we're allowed to go as far back as we want, I could just as easily say that those invasions are a retaliation for the Alexandrian and Roman incursions into Asia Minor, Africa, the Levant among other parts. Except I would never do that because that would be just as ridiculous as you're being now. Don't be such a tool.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Iran is the clearest example of the West deliberately destroying a democracy that existed. A heinous crime that directly led to fundamentalists seizing power.

That was one of those sham democracies--exist for one election to gain power.

Since the Industrial Revolution the West has interfered into the internal political situation of every single nation in the ME.

Every nation??

And there's plenty of wrongdoing that has absolutely nothing to do with to do with the west. You realize there was slavery there up into the 20th century?

It has destroyed countless lives and prevented unknown progress. It has supported despot after despot destroyed democratic growth wherever it has popped up.

You realize the "democratic" movements are shams go bring the Islamists to power? We saw that in Egypt--one election, the Islamists gain power and then show their true colors.

What we are seeing now from the ME is the chaos and blowback for decades of abuse and torture from the West.

What we are seeing is the Muslims objecting to having their conquests thwarted.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol pre-medieval expansion into Iberia? What a joke. I guess if we're allowed to go as far back as we want, I could just as easily say that those invasions are a retaliation for the Alexandrian and Roman incursions into Asia Minor, Africa, the Levant among other parts. Except I would never do that because that would be just as ridiculous as you're being now. Don't be such a tool.

There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

 

[LordKiran]

There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

No duh. It's still asinine to point to thousand year old wars as some how indicative of people living today. I mean Jesus Christ, I'm pretty sure if either of us looked, we could find a post of Derec trying to minimize, make excuses for, or just metaphorically shrugging his shoulders with indifference at western imperialism into the new world and that was even more recent!

 

[untermensche]

There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

Modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution and begins with the colonization of the ME by the West.

We are still dealing with the problems of Western colonization.

The map is the result of Western colonization. It is not the map the Muslims drew.

Part of what is happening is Muslims are trying to redraw the maps from their colonization. They do not consider them valid.

 

[barbos]

There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

No duh. It's still asinine to point to thousand year old wars as some how indicative of people living today. I mean Jesus Christ, I'm pretty sure if either of us looked, we could find a post of Derec trying to minimize, make excuses for, or just metaphorically shrugging his shoulders with indifference at western imperialism into the new world and that was even more recent!

Well, muslims do that all the time, they base their whole religion on what some 7th century warlord did. So, yeah, it's indicative, at least in case of muslims.

 

[LordKiran]

No duh. It's still asinine to point to thousand year old wars as some how indicative of people living today. I mean Jesus Christ, I'm pretty sure if either of us looked, we could find a post of Derec trying to minimize, make excuses for, or just metaphorically shrugging his shoulders with indifference at western imperialism into the new world and that was even more recent!

Well, muslims do that all the time, they base their whole religion on what some 7th century warlord did. So, yeah, it's indicative, at least in case of muslims.

So do we. What's your point? Jesus' message of peace and love didn't seem to sink into the mind of Cortez and his men while they were busy enslaving natives so they could work them to death in silver mines by the thousands. Or all those slaves who worked to death on sugar and rum plantations. Did you know that on sugar plantations, the mortality rate was so high that the local slave population never grew very high because they died almost as fast as they came in. Because Christianity is a religion of justice and compassion! Just...Y'know...When it wants to be.

But no that's not indicative of anything but somehow a thousand year old war in a time when conquest was the norm no matter what your religion was is somehow indicative of modern Muslim attitudes. Get real, dude.

 

[barbos]

Well, muslims do that all the time, they base their whole religion on what some 7th century warlord did. So, yeah, it's indicative, at least in case of muslims.

So do we. What's your point? Jesus' message of peace and love didn't seem to sink into the mind of Cortez and his men while they were busy enslaving natives so they could work them to death in silver mines by the thousands. Or all those slaves who worked to death on sugar and rum plantations. Did you know that on sugar plantations, the mortality rate was so high that the local slave population never grew very high because they died almost as fast as they came in. Because Christianity is a religion of justice and compassion! Just...Y'know...When it wants to be.

But no that's not indicative of anything but somehow a thousand year old war in a time when conquest was the norm no matter what your religion was is somehow indicative of modern Muslim attitudes. Get real, dude.

Nobody worships Cortez, certainly not a billion people.

 

[LordKiran]

So do we. What's your point? Jesus' message of peace and love didn't seem to sink into the mind of Cortez and his men while they were busy enslaving natives so they could work them to death in silver mines by the thousands. Or all those slaves who worked to death on sugar and rum plantations. Did you know that on sugar plantations, the mortality rate was so high that the local slave population never grew very high because they died almost as fast as they came in. Because Christianity is a religion of justice and compassion! Just...Y'know...When it wants to be.

But no that's not indicative of anything but somehow a thousand year old war in a time when conquest was the norm no matter what your religion was is somehow indicative of modern Muslim attitudes. Get real, dude.

Nobody worships Cortez, certainly not a billion people.

But people worship Jesus. Cortez himself supposedly a devout catholic. So why didnt Jesus' message of peace and love not sink in? its almost as if nobody really believes that crap if there's money to be made. Its almost as if the religious are full of shit.

 

[barbos]

Nobody worships Cortez, certainly not a billion people.

But people worship Jesus. Cortez himself supposedly a devout catholic. So why didnt Jesus' message of peace and love not sink in? its almost as if nobody really believes that crap if there's money to be made. Its almost as if the religious are full of shit.

That's a separate question.
You said we should not refer to a 1000 year old wars. Yet there is a whole damn religion based on that.

 

[LordKiran]

But people worship Jesus. Cortez himself supposedly a devout catholic. So why didnt Jesus' message of peace and love not sink in? its almost as if nobody really believes that crap if there's money to be made. Its almost as if the religious are full of shit.

That's a separate question.
You said we should not refer to a 1000 year old wars. Yet there is a whole damn religion based on that.

No, it's actually the original point I was making, you tried to make it about people worshiping cortez. The point wasn't "christians worship cortez." Try again.