What is the actual free will humans have?

[Subsymbolic]

Naw. You're thinking of Tiny Dancer.

I'm thinking of splatoon!

 

[fromderinside]

Naw. You're thinking of Tiny Dancer.

I'm thinking of splatoon!

Nope. I was projecting da udder guy. TM and all that is lost with it.

 

[DBT]

Not the same, the actor/attacker with the knife does not actually experience homicidal rage and the victim does not actually fear for their life. They are acting out their roles, which gives rise to emotions, but not like actual terror or actual homicidal rage. The job of an actor is to simulate emotions, which entails mentally placing themselves in the role they are playing, which in turn generates response by their brain, stimuli, mirror neurons, etc, which in turn enables a feeling for the characters and roles they play. They do not evoke terror at will, like a turning on a tap. Stimuli always comes first, the brain responding to its stimuli generates feelings.

Feeling an emotion is feeling an emotion.

Same exact thing.

Feeling are related to the object. Hence the actor who feigns homicidal rage, may feel emotion, but it isn't exactly homicidal rage. Actual homicidal rage comes not from acting.

To deny the will in your life is to move about rudderless and believe stories of the visions of the blind.

Wow....again, nobody is denying the existence of will. The issue is about how will is formed and the role it plays.....which I have already pointed out numerous times.

 

[fromderinside]

Wow....again, nobody is denying the existence of will. The issue is about how will is formed and the role it plays.....which I have already pointed out numerous times.

Will?

1. What's that?
2. Ergo I'm denying it.

 

[untermensche]

Feeling are related to the object.

Feelings are subjective experiences.

Something you know absolutely nothing about objectively.

Stop pretending you do.

If one feels an emotion one feels an emotion.

Wow....again, nobody is denying the existence of will. The issue is about how will is formed and the role it plays.....which I have already pointed out numerous times.

A will does something.

It moves the arm

You are not talking about the will.

You are not talking about what initiates the movement.

All we know is the consciousness does "something" and the arm moves. And if the consciousness does not do that "something" it might move in a spastic reflexive manner at times but it will not move with purpose.

The mind moves the arm with purpose.

The brain flails the arm about in a spastic desperate manner.

 

[DBT]

Will doesn't send signals to muscle groups. It's not even a conscious process. Perception of lifting your arm at will, etc, is conscious.

Consciousness is the representation of activity, a virtual 4D mental map of self interacting with environment. Will is a part of the process. Will itself is formed by the brain.

The brain, not will, being the agency of all conscious and unconscious response.

 

[untermensche]

Will doesn't send signals to muscle groups. It's not even a conscious process. Perception of lifting your arm at will, etc, is conscious.

Consciousness is the representation of activity, a virtual 4D mental map of self interacting with environment. Will is a part of the process. Will itself is formed by the brain.

The brain, not will, being the agency of all conscious and unconscious response.

You are right.

Will is not down the chain sending signals (somehow, nobody knows how the brain does things like this) to muscles.

It is the initial step, not some distant step.

It initiates the movement. And the tiniest initiation can easily be amplified once commenced.

 

[DBT]

Will doesn't send signals to muscle groups. It's not even a conscious process. Perception of lifting your arm at will, etc, is conscious.

Consciousness is the representation of activity, a virtual 4D mental map of self interacting with environment. Will is a part of the process. Will itself is formed by the brain.

The brain, not will, being the agency of all conscious and unconscious response.

You are right.

Will is not down the chain sending signals (somehow, nobody knows how the brain does things like this) to muscles.

It is the initial step, not some distant step.

It initiates the movement. And the tiniest initiation can easily be amplified once commenced.

Sensory inputs and distribution and processing of information must necessarily happen before will emerges. That prior activity being the stimuli that determines what is experienced in conscious form, perceptions, feeling, thoughts, decisions and the will (urge) to act upon decisions made. Will is neither magical or free, just a part of the cognitive process.

 

[Juma]

Will doesn't send signals to muscle groups. It's not even a conscious process. Perception of lifting your arm at will, etc, is conscious.

Consciousness is the representation of activity, a virtual 4D mental map of self interacting with environment. Will is a part of the process. Will itself is formed by the brain.

The brain, not will, being the agency of all conscious and unconscious response.

You are right.

Will is not down the chain sending signals (somehow, nobody knows how the brain does things like this) to muscles.

It is the initial step, not some distant step.

It initiates the movement. And the tiniest initiation can easily be amplified once commenced.

Nah. Will is just how it feels to act. the brain acts.the reasons for the act is often hidden to us but we are very good at inventing reasons after the fact.

 

[ruby sparks]

You are right.

Will is not down the chain sending signals (somehow, nobody knows how the brain does things like this) to muscles.

It is the initial step, not some distant step.

It initiates the movement. And the tiniest initiation can easily be amplified once commenced.

The conscious intent, which I accept occurs for some of our actions, isn't really 'an initial step' though, is it? It's a moment in time in the midst of a constant flux. Where does it come from? To get it to be anything more than the result of all the brain processes that happen right up to that moment, you'd need to be talking about a consciousness that is independent of all that.

I don't exactly know what your conception of consciousness is, but if you think it's independent of the body then it's starting to sound a bit like a soul or something. Not necessarily an eternal soul capable of going on after bodily death, but a sort of soul nonetheless, and more importantly for this discussion, you seem to think it's free from being caused.

 

[untermensche]

Will doesn't send signals to muscle groups. It's not even a conscious process. Perception of lifting your arm at will, etc, is conscious.

Consciousness is the representation of activity, a virtual 4D mental map of self interacting with environment. Will is a part of the process. Will itself is formed by the brain.

The brain, not will, being the agency of all conscious and unconscious response.

You are right.

Will is not down the chain sending signals (somehow, nobody knows how the brain does things like this) to muscles.

It is the initial step, not some distant step.

It initiates the movement. And the tiniest initiation can easily be amplified once commenced.

Sensory inputs and distribution and processing of information must necessarily happen before will emerges. That prior activity being the stimuli that determines what is experienced in conscious form, perceptions, feeling, thoughts, decisions and the will (urge) to act upon decisions made. Will is neither magical or free, just a part of the cognitive process.

Sensory input has some part, but the will has the final say.

The music may make you want to move but you can easily say no.

 

[DBT]

Sensory inputs and distribution and processing of information must necessarily happen before will emerges. That prior activity being the stimuli that determines what is experienced in conscious form, perceptions, feeling, thoughts, decisions and the will (urge) to act upon decisions made. Will is neither magical or free, just a part of the cognitive process.

Sensory input has some part, but the will has the final say.

The music may make you want to move but you can easily say no.

Saying no is subject to the same process as saying yes.

 

[untermensche]

Sensory inputs and distribution and processing of information must necessarily happen before will emerges. That prior activity being the stimuli that determines what is experienced in conscious form, perceptions, feeling, thoughts, decisions and the will (urge) to act upon decisions made. Will is neither magical or free, just a part of the cognitive process.

Sensory input has some part, but the will has the final say.

The music may make you want to move but you can easily say no.

Saying no is subject to the same process as saying yes.

I agree.

 

[DBT]

Saying no is subject to the same process as saying yes.

I agree.

I can't see how you could agree. decisions being subject to prior inputs and processing are shaped and formed by that process, as is conscious will.

 

[untermensche]

Saying no is subject to the same process as saying yes.

I agree.

I can't see how you could agree. decisions being subject to prior inputs and processing are shaped and formed by that process, as is conscious will.

Decisions can be influenced by prior inputs but they can also be influenced by ideas in the mind about future consequences, even bad ideas, even delusions.

The mind can use many things, even emotions if one is inclined, to make decisions, but it is the mind, an aspect of brain activity, not the brain itself, making decisions.

They can also be capricious and rapid and unpredictable, like all the decisions made when dancing. A skill that only improves with practice.

How one uses their mind is entirely dependent on how they have practiced using it.

Some can have a sloppy will and some a precise. It is up to the individual to decide.

Not their brain. And they can decide at any waking moment to make their will more precise by practicing it.

 

[ruby sparks]

I can't see how you could agree. decisions being subject to prior inputs and processing are shaped and formed by that process, as is conscious will.

Decisions can be influenced by prior inputs but they can also be influenced by ideas in the mind about future consequences, even bad ideas, even delusions.

The mind can use many things, even emotions if one is inclined, to make decisions, but it is the mind, an aspect of brain activity, not the brain itself, making decisions.

They can also be capricious and rapid and unpredictable, like all the decisions made when dancing. A skill that only improves with practice.

How one uses their mind is entirely dependent on how they have practiced using it.

Some can have a sloppy will and some a precise. It is up to the individual to decide.

Not their brain. And they can decide at any waking moment to make their will more precise by practicing it.

I asked you this before. Are you saying that the mind is independent from bodily causes?

If so, where or what do you think it arises from?

 

[none]

he's going to either avoid answering you or say nobody knows...

 

[bilby]

he's going to either avoid answering you or say nobody knows...

...and then follow up with a statement of his opinion that implies that HE knows.

 

[DBT]

I can't see how you could agree. decisions being subject to prior inputs and processing are shaped and formed by that process, as is conscious will.

Decisions can be influenced by prior inputs but they can also be influenced by ideas in the mind about future consequences, even bad ideas, even delusions.

The mind can use many things, even emotions if one is inclined, to make decisions, but it is the mind, an aspect of brain activity, not the brain itself, making decisions.

They can also be capricious and rapid and unpredictable, like all the decisions made when dancing. A skill that only improves with practice.

How one uses their mind is entirely dependent on how they have practiced using it.

Some can have a sloppy will and some a precise. It is up to the individual to decide.

Not their brain. And they can decide at any waking moment to make their will more precise by practicing it.

You said you agree, but clearly you don't. The essential difference being that you appear add an additional element, autonomy of will. You say that you agree that will is a part of the cognitive process...then in effect say that it is not, that it operates independently from the process of cognition.

 

[untermensche]

I can't see how you could agree. decisions being subject to prior inputs and processing are shaped and formed by that process, as is conscious will.

Decisions can be influenced by prior inputs but they can also be influenced by ideas in the mind about future consequences, even bad ideas, even delusions.

The mind can use many things, even emotions if one is inclined, to make decisions, but it is the mind, an aspect of brain activity, not the brain itself, making decisions.

They can also be capricious and rapid and unpredictable, like all the decisions made when dancing. A skill that only improves with practice.

How one uses their mind is entirely dependent on how they have practiced using it.

Some can have a sloppy will and some a precise. It is up to the individual to decide.

Not their brain. And they can decide at any waking moment to make their will more precise by practicing it.

I asked you this before. Are you saying that the mind is independent from bodily causes?

If so, where or what do you think it arises from?

The mind has to be intimately connected to the brain to influence it. I see the mind influencing the brain as a kind of feedback mechanism. But one thing is certain the brain and the mind are not the same thing.

What is a thought?

Answer that and we may know what it is capable of.