Europe submits voluntarily

[whichphilosophy]

Jokodo, meet whichphilosophy.

Greetings. Here are the countries still outlaw apostasy and blasphemy. The world map makes it clear and interesting.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/
There were no laws against apostasy in any countries in Europe or the Americas in 2014.

blasphemy =/= apostasy, and you still haven't learned to write posts pertinent to the discussion at hand.

What else is new?

The research mentions both and there are 2 maps. In fact many of the countries ban both.

 

[SimpleDon]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

 

[Bomb#20]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

The policy that population should constantly rise so enough new people will provide enough income to old people is a Ponzi scheme.

 

[ruby sparks]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

The policy that population should constantly rise so enough new people will provide enough income to old people is a Ponzi scheme.

But he said replacement level, not rise. And in particular, replacement of young earners and tax contributors.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

Germany can take people mainly on work visas but only take in what it needs to avoid overcrowding.

 

[Vork]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

Firstly, how about you run policies that encourage people to have more children? So changes to welfare or whatever? And actually *tell* people to have more? (Not suggesting a gun to anyone's head.) Unless you know for a fact this wouldn't work, then your question may be starting from a false premise in the first place.

But if that doesn't work, then the last thing you do, is allow in immigrants with a tendency not to integrate (FGM, polygamy, honour violence, support for sharia law etc.) especially without any controls to be telling people that they *need* to integrate or they aren't welcome. That's just a recipe for disaster and a divided society. Not to mention that you are letting in a group that is responsible for a big increase in the terrorism threat in the Western world.

Also, if you need migrant workers, explore whether it's practical to bring them in as temporary workers on 5 year visas or whatever. That way, you aren't paying for the education of their children or having to pay so much in medical or welfare when they get old. And whether they have shared values is less of a concern.

But for the sake of argument, why not Mexicans? Or Koreans? Or Chinese? Maybe Russians?

 

[whichphilosophy]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

Firstly, how about you run policies that encourage people to have more children? So changes to welfare or whatever? And actually *tell* people to have more? (Not suggesting a gun to anyone's head.) Unless you know for a fact this wouldn't work, then your question may be starting from a false premise in the first place.

But if that doesn't work, then the last thing you do, is allow in immigrants with a tendency not to integrate (FGM, polygamy, honour violence, support for sharia law etc.) especially without any controls to be telling people that they *need* to integrate or they aren't welcome. That's just a recipe for disaster and a divided society. Not to mention that you are letting in a group that is responsible for a big increase in the terrorism threat in the Western world.

Also, if you need migrant workers, explore whether it's practical to bring them in as temporary workers on 5 year visas or whatever. That way, you aren't paying for the education of their children or having to pay so much in medical or welfare when they get old. And whether they have shared values is less of a concern.

But for the sake of argument, why not Mexicans? Or Koreans? Or Chinese? Maybe Russians?

If someone works in the Middle East, Africa, Asia such as China and India we need a work visa for the contract period. We must leave the country when the visa expires.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is that the difference in the murder rate proves nothing about which religion is more peaceful.

I wasn't talking about any religion being peaceful. In fact, such an attribution is a category error: people are or aren't peaceful.

I was disproving and ridiculing angelo's explicit universal claim that wherever there are significant numbers of Muslims, crime soars.

The figures are more than good enough for that job.

(footnote: I miscalculated, excluding terrorism actually only brings the murder rate down to 9.828/100000)

Which isn't even his point--rather, he's saying that large numbers of Muslims in a non-Muslim society cause problems.

 

[Bomb#20]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

The policy that population should constantly rise so enough new people will provide enough income to old people is a Ponzi scheme.

But he said replacement level, not rise. And in particular, replacement of young earners and tax contributors.

Doesn't matter -- if a modern industrial economy can handle a steady population it can handle a declining population. Replacement fertility is said to be 2.1 births per woman, and the number of workers supporting each retired person is not going to fall off a cliff just because fertility falls from 2.100 to 2.099. The point is, the previous poster committed the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses: there are other possibilities besides having too few workers per retiree or speeding up the insertion of new young. The obvious being (a) increase the retirement age to track improvements in longevity and health, or (b) increase capitalization -- saving, investment, and automation -- so that it takes fewer workers to support an old person. These are better solutions than adding more people. Adding more people is the principle cause of environmental degradation, global warming, and the sixth mass extinction. Low birth rates are a good thing, and Germany needs immigration low to avoid the fate of Japan.

 

[Jokodo]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

Germany can take people mainly on work visas but only take in what it needs to avoid overcrowding.

When Germany did a census 4 or 5 years ago, they found they had almost one and a half million fewer people (almost 2% of the total) than they'd expected based on extrapolation.

That's some serious overcrowding!

 

[Jokodo]

The point is that the difference in the murder rate proves nothing about which religion is more peaceful.

I wasn't talking about any religion being peaceful. In fact, such an attribution is a category error: people are or aren't peaceful.

I was disproving and ridiculing angelo's explicit universal claim that wherever there are significant numbers of Muslims, crime soars.

The figures are more than good enough for that job.

(footnote: I miscalculated, excluding terrorism actually only brings the murder rate down to 9.828/100000)

Which isn't even his point--rather, he's saying that large numbers of Muslims in a non-Muslim society cause problems.

That's what you are reading between the lines because you think it's true or at least reasonable, and you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.

It is, however, not at all what he actually said.

 

[angelo]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

The policy that population should constantly rise so enough new people will provide enough income to old people is a Ponzi scheme.

But he said replacement level, not rise. And in particular, replacement of young earners and tax contributors.

Looking at Muslim countries for the growth of tax payers immigration to sustain welfare payments to balance it is so far out of whack that it sounds ridiculous. The vast majority of Muslim immigrants are themselves welfare recipients.

 

[ruby sparks]

Looking at Muslim countries for the growth of tax payers immigration to sustain welfare payments to balance it is so far out of whack that it sounds ridiculous. The vast majority of Muslim immigrants are themselves welfare recipients.

I do not know how many Muslim immigrants do or don't pay tax here in the UK and I don't know the US situation, or the German one. All I do know is that data suggests that immigrants in general to Britain are less likely than natives to not pay tax or to be claiming benefits.

There are suggestions that recent immigrants to the UK from mainly Muslim countries may be more of a financial burden than an asset. But good data appears to be hard to come by.

Personally, I am in favour of controlled immigration. We should not, imo, be readily admitting immigrants if they are either (a) a security risk, (b) unlikely to contribute to the economy or (c) likely to form a sizeable non-integrating cultural minority when the culture is significantly at odds with the current 'native' one (as appears to be the case with Islam). If this is the case for immigrants from mainly muslim countries, then I'd be in favour of more restrictions and favouring immigration from other places instead, allowing that there may, separately, be other reasons to consider, such as refugees seeking asylum.

 

[SimpleDon]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

The policy that population should constantly rise so enough new people will provide enough income to old people is a Ponzi scheme.

It is a Ponzi scheme then called life.

Who will support the elderly then if not the current workers?

The number of workers has to at least stay the same for the burden on the current work force to be tolerable.

 

[SimpleDon]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

Germany can take people mainly on work visas but only take in what it needs to avoid overcrowding.

Germany is becoming less crowded because the birth rate is declining. This is the problem, not overcrowding.

You ducked the question. If the Germans do try to plug the loss of workers with a guestworker program the same question still remains, if they don't accept muslims where will the workers come from? In the past the majority of the guest workers came from Turkey, which is a muslim country.

The OP is based on the rather shaky proposition that the Germans can't properly vet the immigrants to their country. If this is true why do you think that they can properly vet guest workers?

Germany has a broad and long experience with guest worker programs and they know the problems that the programs create. They don't want to go through that again. The guest workers create ghettos where they live together re-creating a small version of their homes. The guest workers have to be trained and after they leave their replacements have to be trained. The guest workers' children have to be educated and they take the education home with them, Germany doesn't gain anything from educating them. The guest workers knowing that their time in Germany will come to an end tend to send their earnings back to their home countries, rather than to spend it in Germany. The guest workers are more likely to be young single men who are more likely to commit crimes.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

Germany can take people mainly on work visas but only take in what it needs to avoid overcrowding.

Germany is becoming less crowded because the birth rate is declining. This is the problem, not overcrowding.

You ducked the question. If the Germans do try to plug the loss of workers with a guestworker program the same question still remains, if they don't accept muslims where will the workers come from? In the past the majority of the guest workers came from Turkey, which is a muslim country.

The OP is based on the rather shaky proposition that the Germans can't properly vet the immigrants to their country. If this is true why do you think that they can properly vet guest workers?

Germany has a broad and long experience with guest worker programs and they know the problems that the programs create. They don't want to go through that again. The guest workers create ghettos where they live together re-creating a small version of their homes. The guest workers have to be trained and after they leave their replacements have to be trained. The guest workers' children have to be educated and they take the education home with them, Germany doesn't gain anything from educating them. The guest workers knowing that their time in Germany will come to an end tend to send their earnings back to their home countries, rather than to spend it in Germany. The guest workers are more likely to be young single men who are more likely to commit crimes.

Germany has housing shortages

https://www.thelocal.de/20150819/germany-building-homes-in-wrong-places-experts

What you wrote has happened. Guest workers can educate their children at home.

 

[LordKiran]

Guest workers can educate their children at home.

Do they though? Probably not. Europe has long been an education center for foreign families of means and status for a reason. There is every reason to also suspect that guest workers would jump at the chance for their offspring to receive such an education. This also doesn't answer the long list of problems with guest worker programs as outlined by Simple.

 

[Canard DuJour]

Bear in mind that old people don't eat money, they consume goods and services. So long as population decline isn't significantly faster than productivity growth, an ageing population should, theoretically, be manageable (as Bomb points out).

As with so much else, we have a distribution problem, not a scarcity problem. More folks willing to work for less won't necessarily help.

 

[SimpleDon]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

Firstly, how about you run policies that encourage people to have more children? So changes to welfare or whatever? And actually *tell* people to have more? (Not suggesting a gun to anyone's head.) Unless you know for a fact this wouldn't work, then your question may be starting from a false premise in the first place.

But if that doesn't work, then the last thing you do, is allow in immigrants with a tendency not to integrate (FGM, polygamy, honour violence, support for sharia law etc.) especially without any controls to be telling people that they *need* to integrate or they aren't welcome. That's just a recipe for disaster and a divided society. Not to mention that you are letting in a group that is responsible for a big increase in the terrorism threat in the Western world.

Also, if you need migrant workers, explore whether it's practical to bring them in as temporary workers on 5 year visas or whatever. That way, you aren't paying for the education of their children or having to pay so much in medical or welfare when they get old. And whether they have shared values is less of a concern.

But for the sake of argument, why not Mexicans? Or Koreans? Or Chinese? Maybe Russians?

The Germans have tried to increase the number of children. They pay "kinder gelt" - child money. They have tried everything to increase the number of children. They provide child care. They have generous maternity leaves. Etc. It is not just that raising a child is expensive, it is that women want to have careers too. And few men want to stay at home. It is the same in the US except that we do very little to offset the costs of having children.

Yes, many immigrants don't integrate into the country. These tend to go home. Even in the US of unlimited immigration when the immigrants self-selected, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, one half of the immigrants went home. After the bad experience with guest worker programs the Germans want immigrants that will become Germans, if only in the second or third generation. This is the case now as they have permitted the children of guest workers to stay in Germany. Germany is largely secular. I use to joke that in the four countries that I have lived in that when they find out that I am an atheist, that the Americans are shocked, the Chinese are relieved, that the Canadians never find out because they are too polite to discuss it and the Germans assumed all along that I was because I am reasonably intelligent.

The second generation of the immigrants are as likely to be atheist as they are to be religious.

The Germans have gone through different waves of guest workers and immigrants. They know that they prefer immigrants because they become Germans.

They have large numbers of European workers in Germany now. They come from every country in the EU. But they tend to return home the first chance they get.

I was a guest worker and I had no desire to stay in Germany. They wanted me to stay. But for the most part my family stayed in the US. I really liked living in Germany. It is a much more comfortable place to live than the US. There isn't the constant worrying about having a job. The citizens of Germany are much more secure in their jobs and therefore in their lives. In the US companies use job insecurity to lower wage demands. The government mirrors this by fighting inflation as their priority by forcing layoffs in certain interest rate sensitive industries, like home construction, automobile and white goods manufacturing and construction.

Companies in Germany are as responsible for the welfare of the workers as they are responsible to make a profit for the shareholders. Wages are set by a system of industrial sector proportional negotiations between management and labor at the state, lande, level between the manufacturers associations, the state government and the labor unions. They negotiate the minimum wage for a critical occupation for all of the companies in a certain industrial sector, say the assembly workers in the automobile industry and everyone else's wage is based on a percentage of that wage. A janitor might have a minimum wage of 0.6 of the base wage while a tool and die maker might have a minimum wage of 1.25 times that of the base wage rate. This form of negotiation took the most contentious negotiation out of the company level leaving them only with local issues. This system prevents the companies from competing with one another by lowering wages, since they pretty much pay the same wages.

You are deflecting, calling my premise false. If you believe that the Germans can't vet their immigrants adequately then how can they adequately vet the guest workers? And they will have to vet many more guest workers than they will immigrants.

We know that all of the Mexicans who come to the US to work are drug dealers and rapists because Mexico doesn't send us their best people. Our president told us this. Germany has admitted slavic people in the past who have German surnames but they also tend to repatriate when conditions improved in their home countries, too.

Almost everyone would prefer to live in the country they were born in. It takes an extraordinary event like a war started by idiot neoconservatives to encourage large numbers of people to want to move permanently to another country.

Merkel saw the refugees as a large number of potential immigrants than were available from other countries and the Germans aren't as bigoted against muslims as seems to be the case here.

I have never been religious, I was raised as an atheist. All religions seem to be filled with bizarre beliefs and practices and to mainly be an irrational basis for conflict. I guess that I can't grade the beliefs and practices fine enough to decide whose is the worse religion. Before 9/11 christians had racked up a much higher body count than muslims in the US. And yet there was no calls to stop christian immigration. But now that muslims have surged ahead in the body count, with suicide bombers blowing themselves up to gain ~60 virgins in heaven now we must limit muslim immigration and to tell the Germans that they must too!

 

[SimpleDon]

I asked a simple question a year ago that was never answered. Germany needs immigration to avoid the fate of Japan, too many elderly with not enough workers to support them because their birth rate is no longer replacing those who die.

The Germans have a long history of Turkish and Italian immigration to provide their much needed workers. But first the Italians and then the Turks started to go home and the Germanized ones who stayed have as low of a birth rate as the native born Germans do.

To those who oppose muslim immigration on religious grounds: Where do you suggest that the Germans look to for their much needed immigration? Mexico?


This is not a trivial question for the US. Our birth rate is now below the replacement level, all of our population growth is due to immigration.

Firstly, how about you run policies that encourage people to have more children? So changes to welfare or whatever? And actually *tell* people to have more? (Not suggesting a gun to anyone's head.) Unless you know for a fact this wouldn't work, then your question may be starting from a false premise in the first place.

But if that doesn't work, then the last thing you do, is allow in immigrants with a tendency not to integrate (FGM, polygamy, honour violence, support for sharia law etc.) especially without any controls to be telling people that they *need* to integrate or they aren't welcome. That's just a recipe for disaster and a divided society. Not to mention that you are letting in a group that is responsible for a big increase in the terrorism threat in the Western world.

Also, if you need migrant workers, explore whether it's practical to bring them in as temporary workers on 5 year visas or whatever. That way, you aren't paying for the education of their children or having to pay so much in medical or welfare when they get old. And whether they have shared values is less of a concern.

But for the sake of argument, why not Mexicans? Or Koreans? Or Chinese? Maybe Russians?

If someone works in the Middle East, Africa, Asia such as China and India we need a work visa for the contract period. We must leave the country when the visa expires.

Once again, the Germans have a long history with guest worker programs. They are now convinced that permanent immigration is better than another guest worker program. And a guest worker program requires the vetting of many more people over time.

I have had work visas in Canada and China, if I had one in Germany the company got it for me. I was registered with the police as a resident of my apartment. The German border officials seemed to be happy with whatever they saw when they looked me up on their computers.