Europe submits voluntarily

[Jokodo]

Saudi Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Saudi_Arabia

In 2009, Amnesty International reported that "at least 102 men and women, 39 of them foreign nationals, were executed in 2008. Many were executed for non-violent offences, including drug offences, 'sodomy', blasphemy and apostasy."[3] In 2008, Human Rights Watch reported that Saudi Arabia frequently convicts persons for alleged insults to religion.[4] In 1999, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Human Rights Commission expressed concern about the lack of response from Saudi Arabia to inquiries about the circumstances of detained persons

The adults know that Saudi Arabia has more barbarian blasphemy laws than most places (including most Muslim majority places).

The adults are talking about whether blasphemy laws only exist in Muslim countries, or whether the blasphemy laws in Christian countries are effectively dead letter.

Your contribution might or might not be of value in a different discussion. It isn't in this one.

 

[Derec]

Other countries where blasphemy laws regularly lead to convictions (for blaspheming against Christianity) include Greece and Poland.

I should have said Western Europe. The part of Europe being most rapidly islamicized.

As a matter of fact, the staunchest defenders of blasphemy laws, everywhere in Europe, are the conservative and right-wing parties

[citation needed]

(it's only karma when occasionally, those laws, which they always only meant to protect Christianity but couldn't say so because the rule of law still applies, fall back on them).

In Denmark, the law hadn't been used for more than 40 years before a prosecutor decided to dust it off and use it to protect the sanctity of Islam. That says a lot.

the ones who want to scrap them are the Greens and to a lesser extent/less consistently Social Democrats - the ones you guys accuse of being in bed with Islamists.

They are in bed with Islamists, certainly in Germany. The Greens demand unrestricted mass migration of Muslims and end of deportations and the SPD chancellor candidate in the 2017 elections said that Muslim mass migrants were worth more than gold.

To claim that existing blasphemy laws are a sign of creeping islamization is not just wrong, it is a 180° reversal of the truth:

I did not say that the laws themselves are a sign of creeping islamization. These laws are a remnant from a different era. It is the Danish prosecutor using an almost never used law to go after a critic of Islam that is a sign of creeping islamization.

At the same time as Muslim populations are growing, blasphemy laws are being scrapped, and not the at the insistence of the self-declared "defenders of Europe"!

At least you admit that Muslim population is indeed growing. But somehow you refuse to extrapolate to the conclusion that in a few decades Muslims will take over Europe - they will first become majorities in major cities, then there will be Muslim dominated regions and finally overall majority in Western Europe will be Muslim (by 2070 at the latest).

- - - Updated - - -

The adults are talking about whether blasphemy laws only exist in Muslim countries, or whether the blasphemy laws in Christian countries are effectively dead letter

In Western Europe they are effectively dead letter unless somebody insults Islam.

 

[Jokodo]

I should have said Western Europe. The part of Europe being most rapidly islamicized.


[citation needed]

If you can read German, the section about the history of Germany blasphemy laws, otherwise try google translate. A recurring theme: CSU wants to harshen the laws, SDP is skeptical, and the only ones who ever made motions to scrap it alltogether are the Greens and the Linke.

(it's only karma when occasionally, those laws, which they always only meant to protect Christianity but couldn't say so because the rule of law still applies, fall back on them).

In Denmark, the law hadn't been used for more than 40 years before a prosecutor decided to dust it off and use it to protect the sanctity of Islam. That says a lot.

It says that the judiciary understands that laws must not be applied selectively. It would be a sad state of affairs if it were any different.

The adults are talking about whether blasphemy laws only exist in Muslim countries, or whether the blasphemy laws in Christian countries are effectively dead letter

In Western Europe they are effectively dead letter unless somebody insults Islam.

When did Malta and Greece become not-Western-Europe?

 

[Jokodo]

Also if you can read German, this appears to be the most recent case that led to a conviction in Germany: http://www.burhoff.de/asp_weitere_beschluesse/inhalte/3476.htm

His crimes: Insulting Jesus and the pope.

Is Germany also not-Western-Europe? Or are you just making up crap as you go along?

 

[Jokodo]

At least you admit that Muslim population is indeed growing. But somehow you refuse to extrapolate to the conclusion that in a few decades Muslims will take over Europe - they will first become majorities in major cities, then there will be Muslim dominated regions and finally overall majority in Western Europe will be Muslim (by 2070 at the latest).

If you think linear extrapolation is such a great way to predict the future, care to tell me when the Carribean will freeze over? Seeing as it has become colder at a rate of several degrees per month for at least half a year, that has to be long before 2070!

 

[Derec]

If you can read German, the section about the history of Germany blasphemy laws, otherwise try google translate. A recurring theme: CSU wants to harshen the laws, SDP is skeptical, and the only ones who ever made motions to scrap it alltogether are the Greens and the Linke.

Danke. Unfortunately the few good positions Greens have are more than compensated by their idiocy on mass migration and their absolutist stance on environment.

It says that the judiciary understands that laws must not be applied selectively. It would be a sad state of affairs if it were any different.

Applying selectively == only to protect Muslims?
When you dust off a law that hasn't been used for 40+ years just because you dislike somebody's speech, that is capriciousness.

When did Malta and Greece become not-Western-Europe?

Since they both wandered off to the extreme south of Europe? Greece is also quite a ways East.
Also, didn't you say Malta scrapped their law in 2016? That was before the Quran burning prosecution in Denmark.

 

[Derec]

If you think linear extrapolation is such a great way to predict the future, care to tell me when the Carribean will freeze over? Seeing as it has become colder at a rate of several degrees per month for at least half a year, that has to be long before 2070!

Temperature of the Caribbean is well known to be cyclic with T=1a. Muslim population is not cyclic, the millions of Muslims streaming into Europe currently (and breeding prolifically) will not be followed by even more Muslims leaving in a few years. On the contrary, more and more are coming (i.e. population share is only growing, never going down), for example the more than 100,000 mass migrants from subsaharan Africa and Bangladhesh are streaming in every year (and a big majority are Muslim) even with Libyan coast guard taking a more proactive role intercepting the mass migrants and sending them back. What the smugglers do is set the mass migrants on non-seaworthy boats who are then picked up by other smugglers (i.e. "rescue" NGOs like MSF or Jugend Rettet) who take the mass migrants most of the way to Europe, where they immediately claim asylum (which shields them from deportation and allows them to claim free housing and other benefits) even though they are economic migrants.
Speaking of temperatures, if extrapolation were such an impossible feat, the whole idea of climate change would be nothing but pseudoscience. You are not a climate change denier are you?

 

[Derec]

His crimes: Insulting Jesus and the pope.

He also said that the pope should be killed ("Franz umbringen") so that's a bit different than just burning the fucking Quran. And from skimming the text, it looks like he was tried based on regular insult law (yes, insulting people is prohibited in Germany) and not a specific blasphemy law.
Also it seems he only got fined, which is quite different than penalty for blasphemy in countries dominated by Islam.

Germany has an old law about insulting heads of state which Turkey used to pressure Germany into prosecuting a comedian for making fun of Erdogan.
Germany Turkey: Merkel allows inquiry into comic's Erdogan insult
Merkel is caving to Islamists a lot.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Saudi Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Saudi_Arabia

In 2009, Amnesty International reported that "at least 102 men and women, 39 of them foreign nationals, were executed in 2008. Many were executed for non-violent offences, including drug offences, 'sodomy', blasphemy and apostasy."[3] In 2008, Human Rights Watch reported that Saudi Arabia frequently convicts persons for alleged insults to religion.[4] In 1999, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Human Rights Commission expressed concern about the lack of response from Saudi Arabia to inquiries about the circumstances of detained persons

The adults know that Saudi Arabia has more barbarian blasphemy laws than most places (including most Muslim majority places).

The adults are talking about whether blasphemy laws only exist in Muslim countries, or whether the blasphemy laws in Christian countries are effectively dead letter.

Your contribution might or might not be of value in a different discussion. It isn't in this one.

To save speculation see:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/

 

[Jokodo]

Saudi Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Saudi_Arabia

In 2009, Amnesty International reported that "at least 102 men and women, 39 of them foreign nationals, were executed in 2008. Many were executed for non-violent offences, including drug offences, 'sodomy', blasphemy and apostasy."[3] In 2008, Human Rights Watch reported that Saudi Arabia frequently convicts persons for alleged insults to religion.[4] In 1999, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Human Rights Commission expressed concern about the lack of response from Saudi Arabia to inquiries about the circumstances of detained persons

The adults know that Saudi Arabia has more barbarian blasphemy laws than most places (including most Muslim majority places).

The adults are talking about whether blasphemy laws only exist in Muslim countries, or whether the blasphemy laws in Christian countries are effectively dead letter.

Your contribution might or might not be of value in a different discussion. It isn't in this one.

To save speculation see:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/

Both incomplete and outdated.

Look at my earlier link for comparison.

 

[Jokodo]

His crimes: Insulting Jesus and the pope.

He also said that the pope should be killed ("Franz umbringen") so that's a bit different than just burning the fucking Quran. And from skimming the text, it looks like he was tried based on regular insult law (yes, insulting people is prohibited in Germany) and not a specific blasphemy law.

Then read more closely. He was convicted on 2 counts (so the other thing about Jesus was also considered an offense) under § 166: Beschimpfung von Bekenntnissen, Religionsgesellschaften und Weltanschauungsvereinigungen (link is to the text of the law).

Also it seems he only got fined, which is quite different than penalty for blasphemy in countries dominated by Islam.

Most blasphemy cases in countries like Indonesia, Morocco, or Kazakhstan only result in fines, if not in an acquittal. You can of course take Saudi Arabia as your yardstick, but that's about as sensible as taking Chad as a yardstick for measuring the result of capitalism.

Germany has an old law about insulting heads of state which Turkey used to pressure Germany into prosecuting a comedian for making fun of Erdogan.
Germany Turkey: Merkel allows inquiry into comic's Erdogan insult
Merkel is caving to Islamists a lot.

Merkel is, in this particular instance, caving to despots maintaining good relations with which she believes is in the vital interest of Germany. That's what politicians all over the world do, like it or not. Whether or not those despots are Islamist is absolutely secondary.

 

[Jokodo]

If you think linear extrapolation is such a great way to predict the future, care to tell me when the Carribean will freeze over? Seeing as it has become colder at a rate of several degrees per month for at least half a year, that has to be long before 2070!

Temperature of the Caribbean is well known to be cyclic with T=1a. Muslim population is not cyclic<snip>

It is not cyclic, but it is preictable from primitives that can be measured, whose dynamics can be measured, etc. Those drivers are: birth rates (ultimately based of fertility rates), known to be falling fast both among European Muslims and in their main countries of origin; (de-)conversion rates, known to be vastly in favor of secularisation at least for European Muslims; and migration rates, hardest to predict precisely because they're most subject to most fluctuation. For example, Germany's migration balance regarding Turks has been consistently negative since at least 2006. Meaning: more Turkish citizens relocating from Germany to Turkey than from Turkey to Germany. And that figure arguably underestimates the true number of ethnic Turks moving to Turkey since it doesn't encompassed naturalised citizens of Turkish origin.

- - - Updated - - -

When did Malta and Greece become not-Western-Europe?

Since they both wandered off to the extreme south of Europe? Greece is also quite a ways East.
Also, didn't you say Malta scrapped their law in 2016? That was before the Quran burning prosecution in Denmark.

"Western Europe" is not typically used as a purely geographical, but as a geopolitical term. If you prefer a different definition than the costumary one, it's up to you to clarify.

 

[Jokodo]

Applying selectively == only to protect Muslims?
When you dust off a law that hasn't been used for 40+ years just because you dislike somebody's speech, that is capriciousness.

Unless you know of any cases where someone in Denmark was not prosecuted for, e.g. burning a Bible and advertising it in a similarly broad fashion, reaching similar publicity*, your claim that it is being applied selectively has no substance.

* Some crimes are only crimes when public. Some charges show it in their name, e.g. public indecency or public nudity (which isn't actually outlawed in Germany, so it seems with all those Muslims, the US still has a lesson or two in liberalism learn from Germany); in others it is implied, including most hate speech and related offenses, and also the current German and previous (scrapped) Danish blasphemy laws.

 

[repoman]

Huh, there are different reasons why secular or christian countries would not want a lot of muslims in their countries. It is NOT hypocrisy for dominant christian countries to refuse muslims, it is just a power strategy.

 

[Jokodo]

Huh, there are different reasons why secular or christian countries would not want a lot of muslims in their countries. It is NOT hypocrisy for dominant christian countries to refuse muslims, it is just a power strategy.

If you want to live in a "dominant Christian culture", there's a lot of places in the world where you might be happy. Europe isn't one of them - Europe is proud, or should be, of being a place where all people are equal before the law. If defending that against right-wing attempts to install a caste system where some people are worth more than others by virtue of their birth or their beliefs implies a temporary alliance with Muslims and others they want to turn into second class humans, then so it shall be. It's a simple, amoral (!= immoral) pragmatic choice.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which country has an active Muslim terrorist movement?

This conversation is simply surreal.

Do you really think that murder rate in the Philippines is mostly due to terrorist attacks? This is too absurd to merit comment, but I'm going to please you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_Philippines#2014

You could have googled that yourself, but there you go. I'm even going to summarise for you: Total terrorist-related deaths in the Philippines in 2014: 12

For a country that had almost exactly 100 million inhabitants in 2014, excluding terrorist deaths would thus bring down the murder rate from 9.84 per 100,000 to -- 9.72 per 100,000.

Again, you could have worked that out yourself.

The point is that the difference in the murder rate proves nothing about which religion is more peaceful.

 

[Jokodo]

Which country has an active Muslim terrorist movement?

This conversation is simply surreal.

Do you really think that murder rate in the Philippines is mostly due to terrorist attacks? This is too absurd to merit comment, but I'm going to please you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_Philippines#2014

You could have googled that yourself, but there you go. I'm even going to summarise for you: Total terrorist-related deaths in the Philippines in 2014: 12

For a country that had almost exactly 100 million inhabitants in 2014, excluding terrorist deaths would thus bring down the murder rate from 9.84 per 100,000 to -- 9.72 per 100,000.

Again, you could have worked that out yourself.

The point is that the difference in the murder rate proves nothing about which religion is more peaceful.

I wasn't talking about any religion being peaceful. In fact, such an attribution is a category error: people are or aren't peaceful.

I was disproving and ridiculing angelo's explicit universal claim that wherever there are significant numbers of Muslims, crime soars.

The figures are more than good enough for that job.

(footnote: I miscalculated, excluding terrorism actually only brings the murder rate down to 9.828/100000)

 

[ZiprHead]

Saudi Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Saudi_Arabia

In 2009, Amnesty International reported that "at least 102 men and women, 39 of them foreign nationals, were executed in 2008. Many were executed for non-violent offences, including drug offences, 'sodomy', blasphemy and apostasy."[3] In 2008, Human Rights Watch reported that Saudi Arabia frequently convicts persons for alleged insults to religion.[4] In 1999, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Human Rights Commission expressed concern about the lack of response from Saudi Arabia to inquiries about the circumstances of detained persons

The adults know that Saudi Arabia has more barbarian blasphemy laws than most places (including most Muslim majority places).

The adults are talking about whether blasphemy laws only exist in Muslim countries, or whether the blasphemy laws in Christian countries are effectively dead letter.

Your contribution might or might not be of value in a different discussion. It isn't in this one.

Jokodo, meet whichphilosophy.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Saudi Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Saudi_Arabia

In 2009, Amnesty International reported that "at least 102 men and women, 39 of them foreign nationals, were executed in 2008. Many were executed for non-violent offences, including drug offences, 'sodomy', blasphemy and apostasy."[3] In 2008, Human Rights Watch reported that Saudi Arabia frequently convicts persons for alleged insults to religion.[4] In 1999, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Human Rights Commission expressed concern about the lack of response from Saudi Arabia to inquiries about the circumstances of detained persons

The adults know that Saudi Arabia has more barbarian blasphemy laws than most places (including most Muslim majority places).

The adults are talking about whether blasphemy laws only exist in Muslim countries, or whether the blasphemy laws in Christian countries are effectively dead letter.

Your contribution might or might not be of value in a different discussion. It isn't in this one.

Jokodo, meet whichphilosophy.

Greetings. Here are the countries still outlaw apostasy and blasphemy. The world map makes it clear and interesting.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/
There were no laws against apostasy in any countries in Europe or the Americas in 2014.

 

[Jokodo]

Jokodo, meet whichphilosophy.

Greetings. Here are the countries still outlaw apostasy and blasphemy. The world map makes it clear and interesting.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/
There were no laws against apostasy in any countries in Europe or the Americas in 2014.

blasphemy =/= apostasy, and you still haven't learned to write posts pertinent to the discussion at hand.

What else is new?