• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

There isn't really a 'freewill problem'.

And nobody denies this.
If you could take 2 minutes, Hameroff explains that people will have an emotional response before the stimulus is applied.


There may be an emotional response in anticipation, but not because of actual mental time travel.

So Hameroff explains that there have been tests done that show backward time effects to allow for free will, and you just say that it's not so. He even names the scientists who did the experiments in that 2 minute clip.

You seem to prefer to be stuck in an incomplete theory of decision making while the rest of the world are providing possible solutions.

You seem to be taking flights of fancy that are not supported by the current evidence. You appear to be basing this upon questionable source material.

not according to the scientists that did the experiments

Look, I am getting tired of bringing everyone up to speed on the current state of consciousness/free will/science. Everyone seems to have finished learning and are stuck somewhere in the past. You all have to fight me every step of the way for some reason.

If we were truly able to predict future events just before they happen, time travel by consciousness, the world would be a different place.
Because what you describes isnt ”current state of conciousness/free will science”. It is fringe science. I even question if it is science, since most of it are philosophical discussions.


Efit: i checked on your ”scentists”...

They have names (and I understand why you wouldnt mention their names).
They are the notorious Dean Radin and Dick Bierman...Parapsychologs..,

The paper they wrote is from 2002. 16 years later nobidy cares...what do that say to you?
A paper that shows that we are aware what will happen 4s in advance! That is Randi prise material...
So why didnt it turn science around? Because it is shitty science. Because the effect is minimal and most clearly result of a combination of bias and luck...
 
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And nobody denies this.

If it is not denied then it should be realized that consciousness is the current work of the brain and is therefore an immediate reflection of the state and condition of the brain producing consciousness and not something that freely roves backwards and forwards through time like Doctor Who.

So Hameroff explains that there have been tests done that show backward time effects to allow for free will, and you just say that it's not so. He even names the scientists who did the experiments in that 2 minute clip.

Just because Hameroff claims that there is a backward time effect does not mean that this is so. Science does not work like that.

not according to the scientists that did the experiments

Quoting fringe science does not prove the proposition.

Look, I am getting tired of bringing everyone up to speed on the current state of consciousness/free will/science. Everyone seems to have finished learning and are stuck somewhere in the past. You all have to fight me every step of the way for some reason.

Tired you may be, but what you are proposing is not proven science...it is someones interpretation of their own work.

You all have to fight me every step of the way for some reason.

It's not you I'm fighting but the claims that are being posted. The claim of consciousness roving back in time is not supported by our everyday experience of consciousness and the world.....when have you ever reacted to an event before it has happened? When have you ever felt pain from a wound before you were wounded?

I'd say never. Never happens. The brain can extrapolate and anticipate events on the basis of current conditions and likelihood of something happening, but not time travel.
 
More;

Could quantum mechanics save the soul? In the light of 20th century physics, is free will plausible?

Such as been the hope of some philosophers, scientists (and pretenders to those titles) – but neuroscientist Peter Clarke argues that it’s just not happening, in an interesting new paper: Neuroscience, quantum indeterminism and the Cartesian soul

Clarke first outlines the dualism of Rene Descartes, who famously believed in an immaterial human soul separate from the brain, and responsible for rational thought. But this implied that an immaterial soul could break the laws of physics, and affect some physical processes in the brain, in order to control our actions. Even in the 17th century, this was regarded as a bit much:

Princess Elizabeth of Bohemia (oldest daughter of King James VI), wrote: “…it would be easier for me to concede matter and extension to the soul, than to concede the capacity to move a body and to be moved by it to an immaterial thing.”

But the 20th century gave new life to dualism. Quantum theory taught that physics is non-deterministic on the smallest scales; most famously, Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle states that we can’t know the exact properties of any particle for sure – only the probability of finding a certain kind of particle in a certain place.

Since then, a number of authors have argued that the soul interacts with the brain by altering the distribution of quantum states, in such a way that it alters brain function. Arguably, this would not be ‘breaking the laws of physics’ in an objectionable Cartesian way. Because, thanks to Heisenberg, there was always a chance that the system would have ended up the desired way all along.

But Clarke pours cold water on this hope:

We consider whether a fluctuation within the limits of Heisenbergian uncertainty could affect the presynaptic calcium concentration by permitting a chemical bond to be modified in an ion channel, as has been proposed…

Tinkering with presynaptic calcium channels is one of the main proposals for how souls could alter neuronal firing. However,

… even with the conservative value of a time uncertainty of 10 milliseconds, Heisenberg’s equation gives an energy uncertainty of approximately 5.2 x 10^-30 J, which is about 200,000 times too small to disrupt even a single Van der Waals interaction, the weakest kind of chemical bond.


In other words, even if the soul were only aiming to influence a calcium channel for 10 milliseconds, the bare minimum it would need to, it wouldn’t have nearly enough quantum ‘wiggle room’ to make a difference (the longer the time, the less room.)

Some have argued that even tiny quantum nudges could nonetheless control brain activity, because of the butterfly effect: a small change might lead, indirectly, to a big one, in the complex system of the brain.

However, Clarke squashes this idea too. He says that the brain is actually very good at not being influenced by tiny changes. It has to be, because thermal noise – the random movement of atoms, due to temperature – is constantly throwing up tiny changes, and this noise would drown out any plausible Heisenberg-based effects:



Thus, the thermal energy of the molecules is 9 orders of magnitude greater than the energy change that can be hidden by Heisenbergian uncertainty. But the functioning of neurons has to be resistant to thermal noise. And if the Heisenbergian uncertainty is amplified by chaos or in other ways, the far greater fluctuations due to thermal energy will presumably be amplified as well.
''
 
Firing rates and narratization

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_problem

Then just google around firing rates and synonyms for bp1. There’s a vast body of work on this now...

"This chapter describes several candidate mechanisms that might explain the binding of distributed macroscopic patterns of neuronal activities into a coherent whole. According to current findings, this problem is still unresolved and represents a fundamental problem in neuroscience related to brain coding and integration of distributed neural activities during processes related to perception, cognition, and memory (the “binding problem”)."

from file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/YHLEKLT9/9781461404354-c1.pdf

Synchronization explains the temporal unity but not the spatial unity of consciousness of objects.

Nonlocal entanglement would be a nice spatial correlate. There is a proposed QM entangled neural process using posner molecules by Fisher.
 
Firing rates and narratization

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_problem

Then just google around firing rates and synonyms for bp1. There’s a vast body of work on this now...

"This chapter describes several candidate mechanisms that might explain the binding of distributed macroscopic patterns of neuronal activities into a coherent whole. According to current findings, this problem is still unresolved and represents a fundamental problem in neuroscience related to brain coding and integration of distributed neural activities during processes related to perception, cognition, and memory (the “binding problem”)."

from file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/YHLEKLT9/9781461404354-c1.pdf

Synchronization explains the temporal unity but not the spatial unity of consciousness of objects.

Nonlocal entanglement would be a nice spatial correlate. There is a proposed QM entangled neural process using posner molecules by Fisher.

Yeah.... a PROPOSED. Come back when it is CONFIRMED.
 
Again, you are simply discrediting Penrose's theory for no apparent reason.

If you could take 2 minutes, Hameroff explains that people will have an emotional response before the stimulus is applied.

You seem to prefer to be stuck in an incomplete theory of decision making while the rest of the world are providing possible solutions.

Is there a working model for how any of the ideas you promote will result in something capable of having conscious animal experiences?

Modern neuroscience does not have a model for how cellular activity of some kind results in conscious experience.

There is no working model for how it could happen.

How is there any understanding of something without even a model to test?

You need some kind of approximation.

Absolutely no model and not even a hint at a model means you have no understanding of what is going on.

That does not prevent people from pretending to understand what is going on and pretending it is all matter of fact and silly little insignificant things like quantum properties of matter can't possibly be involved.

What specifically did I say that you have an issue with?

I asked you a question. (Line #1)

Did you even read what you quoted?
 
Firing rates and narratization

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_problem

Then just google around firing rates and synonyms for bp1. There’s a vast body of work on this now...

"This chapter describes several candidate mechanisms that might explain the binding of distributed macroscopic patterns of neuronal activities into a coherent whole. According to current findings, this problem is still unresolved and represents a fundamental problem in neuroscience related to brain coding and integration of distributed neural activities during processes related to perception, cognition, and memory (the “binding problem”)."

from file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/YHLEKLT9/9781461404354-c1.pdf

Synchronization explains the temporal unity but not the spatial unity of consciousness of objects.

Nonlocal entanglement would be a nice spatial correlate. There is a proposed QM entangled neural process using posner molecules by Fisher.

I'm sorry? I'm afraid I don't get quite what you mean by spatial and temporal unity when applied to mental events. In fact, I'm kind of unclear what it would meant when applied to binding processes across a massively parallel neural net. Perhaps a brief explanation please?
 
So next, these choices, free or otherwise. WHere exactly is the right place to locate them?
 
Just because Hameroff claims that there is a backward time effect does not mean that this is so. Science does not work like that.

Your information thus far has been from DBT. I try to actually provide information from scientists working in this field, and for some reason that is not good enough.

And for the nth time, I have only ever argued for the possibility of free will; i never said anything about what "is so".

You are the one with the certainty which just can't win as long as this subject is overlapping into philosophy.
 
Firing rates and narratization

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_problem

Then just google around firing rates and synonyms for bp1. There’s a vast body of work on this now...

"This chapter describes several candidate mechanisms that might explain the binding of distributed macroscopic patterns of neuronal activities into a coherent whole. According to current findings, this problem is still unresolved and represents a fundamental problem in neuroscience related to brain coding and integration of distributed neural activities during processes related to perception, cognition, and memory (the “binding problem”)."

from file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/YHLEKLT9/9781461404354-c1.pdf

Synchronization explains the temporal unity but not the spatial unity of consciousness of objects.

Nonlocal entanglement would be a nice spatial correlate. There is a proposed QM entangled neural process using posner molecules by Fisher.

Yeah.... a PROPOSED. Come back when it is CONFIRMED.

If you knew what I am arguing for, you would know that an unfalsified model is sufficient for my argument. You chose the wrong side to dispute because all I ever argued for is a possibility for free will to be true.
 
What specifically did I say that you have an issue with?

I asked you a question. (Line #1)

Did you even read what you quoted?

When someone asks a question and then immediately answers it, wouldn't that seem like a rhetorical question to you?

Again, does a lack of a working model for some explanation automatically make it impossible? Like Juma, you think I am the one taking the side of certainty.

Clearly you have a bug up your but about something, I am just trying to figure out what.
 
Firing rates and narratization

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_problem

Then just google around firing rates and synonyms for bp1. There’s a vast body of work on this now...

"This chapter describes several candidate mechanisms that might explain the binding of distributed macroscopic patterns of neuronal activities into a coherent whole. According to current findings, this problem is still unresolved and represents a fundamental problem in neuroscience related to brain coding and integration of distributed neural activities during processes related to perception, cognition, and memory (the “binding problem”)."

from file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/YHLEKLT9/9781461404354-c1.pdf

Synchronization explains the temporal unity but not the spatial unity of consciousness of objects.

Nonlocal entanglement would be a nice spatial correlate. There is a proposed QM entangled neural process using posner molecules by Fisher.

I'm sorry? I'm afraid I don't get quite what you mean by spatial and temporal unity when applied to mental events. In fact, I'm kind of unclear what it would meant when applied to binding processes across a massively parallel neural net. Perhaps a brief explanation please?

So when different neurons fire in different parts of the brain we get properly segregated and unified mental perceptions. The perceptions are unified and segregated from each other in the conscious and unconscious layers.

They are unified and segregated in the mind spatially and temporally. But, the neurons firing have only been found to be unified temporally by firing in a synchonious manner and clearly not in a spatial unified manner.

Why the mental spatial unification? Why do we get a unified image of say a car driving by that is not mixed into a blurry mess with the road and the trees behind it? The mental correlates are conveniently unified and segregated mentally where the outside neurological correlates are not.

Also, the neurons are all firing for other visual inputs, yet the mind holds attention to only certain objects while the rest gets layered unconsciously.

As an analogy, it would be like a tree casting a reflection in a mirror as only a few brown squares. The projection of the tree (neurons) is only projecting certain elements of the tree, and nobody knows exactly how these squares (visual perceptions) are selected and unified or what it is that the reflection is being casted onto (which is just the general problem of what the consciousness is). This is the spatial correlation problem as the temporal correlation is much more consistent.
 
I'm sorry? I'm afraid I don't get quite what you mean by spatial and temporal unity when applied to mental events. In fact, I'm kind of unclear what it would meant when applied to binding processes across a massively parallel neural net. Perhaps a brief explanation please?

So when different neurons fire in different parts of the brain we get properly segregated and unified mental perceptions. The perceptions are unified and segregated from each other in the conscious and unconscious layers.

They are unified and segregated in the mind spatially and temporally. But, the neurons firing have only been found to be unified temporally by firing in a synchonious manner and clearly not in a spatial unified manner.

Why the mental spatial unification? Why do we get a unified image of say a car driving by that is not mixed into a blurry mess with the road and the trees behind it? The mental correlates are conveniently unified and segregated mentally where the outside neurological correlates are not.

Also, the neurons are all firing for other visual inputs, yet the mind holds attention to only certain objects while the rest gets layered unconsciously.

As an analogy, it would be like a tree casting a reflection in a mirror as only a few brown squares. The projection of the tree (neurons) is only projecting certain elements of the tree, and nobody knows exactly how these squares (visual perceptions) are selected and unified or what it is that the reflection is being casted onto (which is just the general problem of what the consciousness is). This is the spatial correlation problem as the temporal correlation is much more consistent.

Right, Now I understand, I think. I'm not sure how convincing you will find this, but I'm not sure that how our user illusion appears to represent information as conscious experience needs to bear any relationship to how that information is represented in the structures, chords of activation and so on that represent it. In other words, I see no reason why temporal information can't processed spatially and spatial information processed temporally. I'm not claiming that is how it is, merely that, for example, we wouldn't expect perceptions of red to be red in the head, so as to speak (we wouldn't expect the neurons processing the information that leads (somehow) to the experience of red to actually be red. In the same way I don't see why physical processes and or content need to be isomorphic with the mental results.

That said, it's immensely clear that the brain is doing as much processing top down as it is bottom up, and as such the question of correlation both becomes harder and easier. There's some useful analysis of this in David Marr's book 'Vision' and RL Gregory had a lot to say about it. Here's Andy Clark on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDwhW3lO1KI

I suspect that quite a lot of the unified image is already there.
 
What specifically did I say that you have an issue with?

I asked you a question. (Line #1)

Did you even read what you quoted?

When someone asks a question and then immediately answers it, wouldn't that seem like a rhetorical question to you?

Again, does a lack of a working model for some explanation automatically make it impossible? Like Juma, you think I am the one taking the side of certainty.

Clearly you have a bug up your but about something, I am just trying to figure out what.

I didn't answer the question. I talked about something else for a while.

Something only becomes a possibility if it can explain some data.

But you need to have a model to test.

Without a model all you have is random data and no way to test any of it.
 
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So next, these choices, free or otherwise. WHere exactly is the right place to locate them?

I would argue that they are not in this dimension at least. I like the idea of the q-space in information integration theory. I also like its panpsychic stance and explanation.

So when you say 'not in this dimension' first, what do you mean by 'dimension' and second do you mean outside the brain, if so can you talk about the mechanism of communication and, back to my original question, where does this transdimensional information bind back into the brain? Are you thinking of it on a neurone to neurone basis in which case are you imagining 'grandmother neurons' that take the whole decision, a 'wheelhouse' like the pineal gland - or do you just see it as A noise generator in a stochastic system. If it's the last, then I might quibble about quite where the noise is inserted, an then probably agree, but I don't see how noise alone is a choice.
 
What specifically did I say that you have an issue with?

I asked you a question. (Line #1)

Did you even read what you quoted?

When someone asks a question and then immediately answers it, wouldn't that seem like a rhetorical question to you?

Again, does a lack of a working model for some explanation automatically make it impossible? Like Juma, you think I am the one taking the side of certainty.

Clearly you have a bug up your but about something, I am just trying to figure out what.

Technically that's not a rhetorical question, it's a hypophoric question. Rhetorical questions are specifically for dramatic or rhetoric effect and are not meant to be answered. With a hypophoric question, the answer - the anaphora - is the rhetorical or dramatic device, the hypophora just sets up the anaphora.

Sorry, I'm a recovering Grammar Nazi. I don't have a bug up there, I have a hive. I sell honey sometimes.
 
I'm sorry? I'm afraid I don't get quite what you mean by spatial and temporal unity when applied to mental events. In fact, I'm kind of unclear what it would meant when applied to binding processes across a massively parallel neural net. Perhaps a brief explanation please?

So when different neurons fire in different parts of the brain we get properly segregated and unified mental perceptions. The perceptions are unified and segregated from each other in the conscious and unconscious layers.

They are unified and segregated in the mind spatially and temporally. But, the neurons firing have only been found to be unified temporally by firing in a synchonious manner and clearly not in a spatial unified manner.

Why the mental spatial unification? Why do we get a unified image of say a car driving by that is not mixed into a blurry mess with the road and the trees behind it? The mental correlates are conveniently unified and segregated mentally where the outside neurological correlates are not.

Also, the neurons are all firing for other visual inputs, yet the mind holds attention to only certain objects while the rest gets layered unconsciously.

As an analogy, it would be like a tree casting a reflection in a mirror as only a few brown squares. The projection of the tree (neurons) is only projecting certain elements of the tree, and nobody knows exactly how these squares (visual perceptions) are selected and unified or what it is that the reflection is being casted onto (which is just the general problem of what the consciousness is). This is the spatial correlation problem as the temporal correlation is much more consistent.

Right, Now I understand, I think. I'm not sure how convincing you will find this, but I'm not sure that how our user illusion appears to represent information as conscious experience needs to bear any relationship to how that information is represented in the structures, chords of activation and so on that represent it. In other words, I see no reason why temporal information can't processed spatially and spatial information processed temporally. I'm not claiming that is how it is, merely that, for example, we wouldn't expect perceptions of red to be red in the head, so as to speak (we wouldn't expect the neurons processing the information that leads (somehow) to the experience of red to actually be red. In the same way I don't see why physical processes and or content need to be isomorphic with the mental results.

It's not so much a mystery about what the substrate is; it's more of a challenge to find a full one-to-one corellation from the substrate (process/code/activity) to mental information. But as of now, there is not a one-to-one correlation with the brain activity and mental perceptions. For example, why do some neurons firing represent mental imagery sometimes but not always? This is a major problem. It's like a tree casting a shadow sometimes but not other times with no explanation.

So to understand it scientifically, we need to specifically know the correlations so that we can make predictions and such, not to mention how important this would be for proper psychological medicines/interventions.

That said, it's immensely clear that the brain is doing as much processing top down as it is bottom up, and as such the question of correlation both becomes harder and easier.

Well, there is no top-down processing necessary to explain anything physical (except for new ideas of quantum cognition) which brings up the question of why we have this higher perception in the first place.

Without free will, this higher mental order is not at all useful evolutionarily speaking. Morerover, the whole should never do more than its parts physically (except for quantum entanglement). That's one reason why I like and think it is necessary for quantum entanglement to give us the proper substrate for this emergent unification of the higher mental order, and which also gives us the - possibility - for free will resulting in real physical effects from these higher levels of the mind.

There's some useful analysis of this in David Marr's book 'Vision' and RL Gregory had a lot to say about it. Here's Andy Clark on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDwhW3lO1KI

I suspect that quite a lot of the unified image is already there.

I got 5 minutes in and got really lost because I have no idea if I am suppose to know what he is leading up to. Does he give a theory?
 
Just because Hameroff claims that there is a backward time effect does not mean that this is so. Science does not work like that.

Your information thus far has been from DBT.

Not true, at one time or another I have provided links to experiments, case studies and commentary by researchers to support what I say....as well you should know, considering how long these 'debates' have been running on this forum. Including you, but now it's like the past has been wiped, every day a groundhog day.

I even provided a link with quotes describing why quantum effects are a minimal aspect of brain function and that quantum effects do not process information or make decisions. That being the role of the whole brain, architecture and electrochemical activity, inputs and processing of information from the external world and internal states, organs, limbs, etc.


I try to actually provide information from scientists working in this field, and for some reason that is not good enough.

And for the nth time, I have only ever argued for the possibility of free will; i never said anything about what "is so".

You are the one with the certainty which just can't win as long as this subject is overlapping into philosophy.

Your source material is fringe science at best, the researchers trying their best to prove what they already believe, the idea of quantum consciousness, which is just that, an idea.
 
It's not so much a mystery about what the substrate is; it's more of a challenge to find a full one-to-one corellation from the substrate (process/code/activity) to mental information.

Personally I think there are at least two distinct processing strategies going on. but I am absolutely certain that a one to one correlation will always be impossible to achieve, this has nothing to do with brains and everything to to with even establishing correlation with a private mental event - the best you can manage is correlation with the behaviour (and linguistic behaviour) based on the judgements about it.

But as of now, there is not a one-to-one correlation with the brain activity and mental perceptions.

Even if we were after this what are we looking for: type type, type token and so on. It's a minefield. Hell, my position is that half of it is formally identical, just from different perspectives and half of it is simply emergent and irreducible.

For example, why do some neurons firing represent mental imagery sometimes but not always?

I'm more worried about how one could ever establish that.

This is a major problem. It's like a tree casting a shadow sometimes but not other times with no explanation.

I think it's more of something casting a shadow that one person can see in some circumstances...

So to understand it scientifically, we need to specifically know the correlations so that we can make predictions and such, not to mention how important this would be for proper psychological medicines/interventions.

But it really is methodologically impossible to make even a correlation except for your own case and even then you are merely indefeasible as how it seems to you is beyond question. That's just not where science should be applied.

Sub said:
That said, it's immensely clear that the brain is doing as much processing top down as it is bottom up, and as such the question of correlation both becomes harder and easier.

Well, there is no top-down processing necessary to explain anything physical (except for new ideas of quantum cognition) which brings up the question of why we have this higher perception in the first place.

I'm not sure I understand?

Without free will, this higher mental order is not at all useful evolutionarily speaking.

Really? how about it just being how it feels to have a brain that shares information in a timely and effective manner across itself. Maybe it's a way of avoiding neglect, running learning and error correction strategies or allows for fast and dirty prediction and explanation of self and others?

Morerover, the whole should never do more than its parts physically (except for quantum entanglement).

Why on earth not? Have you never baked a cake or looked at a beautiful work of art?

That's one reason why I like and think it is necessary for quantum entanglement to give us the proper substrate for this emergent unification of the higher mental order, and which also gives us the - possibility - for free will resulting in real physical effects from these higher levels of the mind.

I don't see it. Penrose tessellations are great but beyond that, it seems to return all the problems Descartes has and once again divert attention from looking at the bloody Neurons. The fact is that silicon well the right side of overdetermined has a solid record of doing things that require intelligence and unification. Why add complication when we are still exploring good old computation? Sure if computation, especially neurocomputation had hit a wall sure, but it hasn't.

There's some useful analysis of this in David Marr's book 'Vision' and RL Gregory had a lot to say about it. Here's Andy Clark on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDwhW3lO1KI

I suspect that quite a lot of the unified image is already there.

I got 5 minutes in and got really lost because I have no idea if I am suppose to know what he is leading up to. Does he give a theory?

He seemed to to me. Maybe I'm too familiar. I'll explain it later but it's past midnight local so I'm off to bed now.
 
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