Police Kill Man Attempting to "Open Carry" ..wait for it...

[Jolly_Penguin]

Only two people, apparently husband and wife, found Crawford to be threatening.

Only two people we know of from what is written above. Not everybody is going to call the police. Many assume somebody else has done so or will do so, or simply care only to get themselves out of harm's way. Perhaps it was just these two who felt concerned, or perhaps there were more. You don't know which.

Why did they find him to be threatening?

How do we know that he didn't simply find the bb gun on the floor of the toy aisle and pick it up to see whether it was real or a toy?

We don't know. We should acknowledge that. We shouldn't leap wildly to conclusions that fit our preconceived ideas, such as that black man shot always equals racism. This may or may not be a case of racist cops. It is definitely a case of people on an internet forum leaping to conclusions.

 

[laughing dog]

Derec STOP with your embellishments unless you have video tape or some sort of evidence. You have ZERO evidence that John Crawford was "brandishing" anything or, especially, that "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it."

This is the most ironic post of the thread. This thread was posted specifically to show racial bias, for which ZERO evidence was given. Much has been made of it being a "toy" gun. Why does that matter? If it looks like a real gun, and police can't be sure, it should be assumed to be a real gun. Much has been made of him supposedly saying "its not real". Even if he said that, apparently people didn't hear it, because they say they were alarmed and thought it real. Other witnesses apparently said he was pointing it around at people and had taken it out of its box.

At the end of the day, we don't really know, so you should not be ASSUMING racist motivations here, as it appears to be the whole purpose of the thread to do. If you've got a surveillance video, or more witness accounts, they'd be interesting to see, but lets not jump to conclusions one way or the other.

I must disagree with your assessment about the level of irony in the post. Given there is not even a hint of an implication of a racial motivation for the shooting in that post, your post is the most ironic in this thread.

 

[marc]

So the person who called the police thought he might try to rob the store?


Ok, so in trying to rob a store, a robber will walk in with a rifle, go past the cashiers and offices where money might be kept, and head to the toy section... And then make a phone call.....

 

[AthenaAwakened]

John Crawford did nothing to warrant the death penalty, that is what he got.

There is so much blame here, a perfect storm of shit just going and being wrong. From the design of the gun (and yes, a bb gun is still a gun) right down the shooting itself. If my mother were still with us she would say of Crawford, "perfect example of why grown folks shouldn't play." She would then add, "but that doesn't make this right or righteous."

As usual, she would be right.

 

[The Paul]

If there's a post on this forum about the police killing someone, it's going to be pretty easy to guess the victim's race.

Yes. The problem isn't black people getting shot for being black, it's that people are so crass as to talk about it afterward.

 

[The Paul]

I'd like to see this police force's official 'conditions of deadly force' definition.

In the Navy, we basically couldn't shoot to kill until someone was dead. Him still holding a weapon when told to drop it is not a condition of deadly force. Not a sane one, anyway. Unless he's actively pointing it at someone, aiming to shoot. Deadly force usually isn't authorized until lesser conditions have been met. Asking him to set it down is a lesser condition, but maybe asking a second time? With a 'DROP IT OR WE'LL SHOOT!' warning?

I think it's not just not dropping it but turning towards the cop.

Yeah, really suspicious behavior, if you think about it. Turning to face the source of the noise when someone unexpectedly shouts at you? That definitely indicates some kind of violent intent.

 

[Toni]

Only two people we know of from what is written above. Not everybody is going to call the police. Many assume somebody else has done so or will do so, or simply care only to get themselves out of harm's way. Perhaps it was just these two who felt concerned, or perhaps there were more. You don't know which.

So far, the only witnesses that have stated they saw 'threatening behavior' is the couple who called the police. It's fairly widely reported on. Perhaps there are other witnesses who called or who were afraid to call or saw someone else had called and they are just too media shy to speak out now.

There seems to have only been a panic after shots were fired (by the police officers).

Why did they find him to be threatening?

How do we know that he didn't simply find the bb gun on the floor of the toy aisle and pick it up to see whether it was real or a toy?

We don't know. We should acknowledge that. We shouldn't leap wildly to conclusions that fit our preconceived ideas, such as that black man shot always equals racism. This may or may not be a case of racist cops. It is definitely a case of people on an internet forum leaping to conclusions.

I don't necessarily think the cops were racist. They responded to a call about a man pointing a gun at children in the toy aisle of a Walmart. I can see why they came at full alert. It seems since they were responding with deadly force they had a duty to be much more certain of the situation than they actually were.

I am concerned about exactly why the couple who called found Crawford threatening. Was he really behaving in a wild, irrational, threatening manner? Or did he simply pick up a gun that he thought was a toy or thought of as a toy while talking to his ex and distractedly moving about, too absorbed in his phone call to even consider that the police or anyone else thought he was being threatening?

It is unfortunately true that in recent months there have been a number of news stories about people, usually young men, usually black, who are killed by some armed individual who finds them threatening although the person who ends up dead actually was simply minding his own business with no thought or intention of doing anyone harm.

How ironic that you complain about people on an internet forum leaping to conclusions. A couple of Walmart shoppers leaped to conclusions; some police officers leaped to conclusions. A 22 year old father died as a result. That's known as a real life consequence. 3 children will grow up without their father because of the conclusions of strangers.

This is just an internet forum. No loaded weapons.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Where are the reports of the stampede? Surely if Crawford was wildly pointing this gun at passersby, the multitude of shoppers went running toward the exits.

 

[bigfield]

I'd like to see this police force's official 'conditions of deadly force' definition.

In the Navy, we basically couldn't shoot to kill until someone was dead. Him still holding a weapon when told to drop it is not a condition of deadly force. Not a sane one, anyway. Unless he's actively pointing it at someone, aiming to shoot. Deadly force usually isn't authorized until lesser conditions have been met. Asking him to set it down is a lesser condition, but maybe asking a second time? With a 'DROP IT OR WE'LL SHOOT!' warning?

The commentators on several news articles think it's quite justified that police act like the Detroit shooter, and open up any time they're afraid. Or anxious.
But this dead guy IS one of the people the cops are supposed to protect, too. That's why they HAVE 'conditions of deadly force' lists in the first place. Because you're not supposed to shoot 'just because.'

A police officer who is fearful of the populace is a very dangerous one.

 

[Hickdive]

Was the victim in the aisle with the Skittles?

 

[RavenSky]

Derec STOP with your embellishments unless you have video tape or some sort of evidence. You have ZERO evidence that John Crawford was "brandishing" anything or, especially, that "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it."

This is the most ironic post of the thread. This thread was posted specifically to show racial bias, for which ZERO evidence was given. Much has been made of it being a "toy" gun. Why does that matter? If it looks like a real gun, and police can't be sure, it should be assumed to be a real gun.

no they really shouldn't. This is how children (no I'm not referring to the 22-year-old as a child, but to actual children) have been shot by police. But if we, as a society, are going to insist on "shoot first, ask questions later" by police because theses items look too much like real guns, then perhaps there need to be laws against any item being made to look like a real gun unless it is a real gun.

Much has been made of him supposedly saying "its not real". Even if he said that, apparently people didn't hear it, because they say they were alarmed and thought it real.

So far, evidence has been produced showing exactly two people who claimed they thought it was a real gun - the same two people who called police but also followed this young man throughout the store while waiving their arms around like lunatics flagging down other shoppers to *warn* them, earning themselves "a look" from Crawford, and puzzled looks from people standing right next to Crawford without concern. Please produce evidence of any other concerned shopper or Walmart employee - concerned BEFORE police arrived. Was there anyone else besides these two who called police?

Other witnesses apparently said he was pointing it around at people and had taken it out of its box.

Derec does not count as another witness, and he is the only person claiming that Crawford took it out of its box. But thank you for illustrating for everyone exactly the problem with Derec repeating his embellishments over and over and over and over as if they were facts - even you assumed it to be a fact in evidence. It is not. It is Derec's assumption based on a report that there was an open box in the sporting goods section. That is not evidence that Crawford opened the box, removed it from the box, nor even that he found the air-rifle in the sporting goods section.

At the end of the day, we don't really know, so you should not be ASSUMING racist motivations here, as it appears to be the whole purpose of the thread to do. If you've got a surveillance video, or more witness accounts, they'd be interesting to see, but lets not jump to conclusions one way or the other.

There is a huge difference between pointing out a discrepancy in police reactions to two men carrying rifle-looking items through big box stores or airports vs Derec's persistent use of embellishments, assumptions and racial-tinged language to demonize the victim. I don't need a video for either of those things (Derec's words are posted here of his own free will), but you and Derec certainly will need evidence of your claims that Crawford "brandished" a gun, or that he is the one who removed it from its box in the sporting goods section or many of the other embellishments Derec has inserted into the thread.

 

[RavenSky]

Only two people we know of from what is written above. Not everybody is going to call the police. Many assume somebody else has done so or will do so, or simply care only to get themselves out of harm's way. Perhaps it was just these two who felt concerned, or perhaps there were more.

you are engaging in exactly the type of speculation you claim everyone should avoid.

But no, we don't need to avoid discussing the case or forming opinions on the basis of what has been thus far reported. It may turn out that additional evidence is produced that will change our opinions. So be it.

What we need to avoid is speculating or embellishing what few facts have been reported while using race-baiting language to demonize the victim or his family.

We do not need to avoid discussion just in case there may have been a stuffed pink unicorn in the Twinkie aisle farting purple rainbow gas that made everyone else except our brave couple blind to the violent and threatening behavior of the thug, who in turn was being mind-controlled by his baby mama via the cell phone.

 

[RavenSky]

So the person who called the police thought he might try to rob the store?


Ok, so in trying to rob a store, a robber will walk in with a rifle, go past the cashiers and offices where money might be kept, and head to the toy section... And then make a phone call.....

With no one else seeing him, no less!

He must have also been wearing a Harry Potter invisibility cloak that he also removed from its box in the toy section

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think it's not just not dropping it but turning towards the cop.

Yeah, really suspicious behavior, if you think about it. Turning to face the source of the noise when someone unexpectedly shouts at you? That definitely indicates some kind of violent intent.

Dude, don't waste your time. Even if the teen wasn't holding anything, he could have said something that would have warranted force because LP doesn't believe the Police ever use force when it isn't necessary.

 

[OLDMAN]

Yet another case of stupid people doing stupid things...on both sides. If the feeling in the black community is; its open season on blacks, they why the hell do something this dangerous. If the though is I might get shot just for looking sideways, why brandish a weapon where one shouldnt be brandished.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yet another case of stupid people doing stupid things...on both sides. If the feeling in the black community is; its open season on blacks, they why the hell do something this dangerous. If the though is I might get shot just for looking sideways...

... then you should stop looking at people sideways. Stupid thug just had it coming.

 

[OLDMAN]

Yet another case of stupid people doing stupid things...on both sides. If the feeling in the black community is; its open season on blacks, they why the hell do something this dangerous. If the though is I might get shot just for looking sideways...

... then you should stop looking at people sideways. Stupid thug just had it coming.

Dont edit my quote, thanks.

 

[Toni]

Yet another case of stupid people doing stupid things...on both sides. If the feeling in the black community is; its open season on blacks, they why the hell do something this dangerous. If the though is I might get shot just for looking sideways, why brandish a weapon where one shouldnt be brandished.

And what if everything you do, simply the fact that you exist is threatening to some people? What if you cannot simply pick up some piece of abandoned merchandise in the toy aisle of Walmart without being seen as a deadly threat to some bored racist fellow shopper who watches too much Fox News? There is simply no level of careful that is careful enough.

 

[RavenSky]

Brandish: 1
:* to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brandish

Until someone produces actual factual evidence that Crawford "brandished" anything, I'd strongly suggest that anyone who wishes to have their contributions to this thread taken as anything other than victim-blaming really should stop using the word.

 

[The Paul]

Yet another case of stupid people doing stupid things...on both sides. If the feeling in the black community is; its open season on blacks, they why the hell do something this dangerous. If the though is I might get shot just for looking sideways, why brandish a weapon where one shouldnt be brandished.

Yes. The solution to all this racism is if black people just avoid doing dangerous, scary things. For instance: picking up an almost-gun at a location that sells guns.

The obvious intention, what with having guns on the shelves and all, is that people pick them up and walk around with them. But this idiot should have realized the intention is that white people do that. He should have realized that if a black man does it it's very threatening. If he'd just exercised a little common sense he'd still be alive.

I mean, maybe the feeling in the black community is that people get sick of being seen as dangerous animals, they get sick of worrying about whether any little thing will put their life in danger by making them appear to be a threat, and a lot of them just want to act like normal people.

Their own fault for adopting such a dangerous attitude!