Do theists sort of think that belieiving in god makes god real?

[humbleman]

How humans by themselves settled rules? What motivate them?

The principal rule is: " whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them." Well, that is the King James Version of it, but the Bible is not the first time it was expressed in writing. Not by a long shot. The Papyrus Ramesseum, kept in the British Museum, was written somewhere between 1650 and 2000 BCE. On one side of it is a story titled The Eloquent Peasant. It includes the sentence: "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do." A later papyrus (ca. 664-323) puts the same command in a negative form: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."

Similar expressions of the same rule have been found among other sources in Sanskrit, Tamil, Greek, Persian and Roman texts, all of them predating the alleged birth of Jesus Christ.

We do not need to invoke a god for this law. The need to live as an individual in a society consisting of other individuals is what motivates it, which is why it was invented so many times in so many societies and so many places throughout history. You might say, rather than god-ordained, it is the product of mother. Mother Necessity, that is, mother of invention.

I do research the Hebrew "bible" at regular basis.

I can tell that or the erudite is hiding truths from the writings or, they just over passed lots of key words and obtained a corrupt interpretation.

The reason is that the old Hebrew is different than modern Hebrew not only in grammar composition of sentences but also in the pronunciation of the words.

The current pronunciation of the Hebrew biblical words is based on tradition. Many Hebrew versions come with "vowels" (symbols added to words) to indicate how that word must be pronounced and to give the proper definition of it.

Some errors are found with those "vowels" and with the interpretation of those words which gave the result of deviated ideas.

Same happens when reading those old Babylonian tablets. It is correct that we actually can translate those writings, but there are many words which in those times might had total different meaning and with that other meaning was the way they understood those writings.

This is not turning down what it has been established already, but it calls for continuous reviews of those translations.

__________________________________________________________________

The point here is how such "principles" started in humans minds.

 

[ruby sparks]

I do research the Hebrew "bible" at regular basis.

Does it say anything about elves?

 

[humbleman]

That is one way to wash, rinse, and spin the OT. Though, if this assembly of writings is supposed to be God-breathed...it should really be no more than about 4,600 years. Of course that has real problems with the already existing Sumerian and Egyptian societies, among other problems with later big miracles that can no longer work.

The Bible seems to be quite clear about the timeline from the Deluge thru the Exodus. FWIW, Genesis provides a similarly clear timeline back to Adam. I am not going into detail on this, as it is not relevant to questions about the claims surrounding the Deluge. Below are portions of the text in question, I include a larger section where it clearly describes the continuum of generations in Ge 11:10-15.

11:10-15 These are the records of the generations of Shem. Shem was one hundred years old, and [j]became the father of Arpachshad two years after the flood; 11 and Shem lived five hundred years after he became the father of Arpachshad, and he had other sons and daughters. 12 Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah; 13 and Arpachshad lived four hundred and three years after he became the father of Shelah, and he had other sons and daughters. 14 Shelah lived thirty years, and became the father of Eber; 15 and Shelah lived four hundred and three years after he became the father of Eber, and he had other sons and daughters.

Ge:
11:10 This is the account of Shem. Shem was one hundred years old when he became the father of Arphaxad, two years after the flood. And after becoming the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived five hundred years and had other sons and daughters. (+2)
12 Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah; (+37)
14 Shelah lived thirty years, and became the father of Eber; (+67)
16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and became the father of Peleg (+101)
18 Peleg lived thirty years, and became the father of Reu; (+131)
20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and became the father of Serug; (+163)
22 Serug lived thirty years, and became the father of Nahor; (+193)
24 Nahor lived twenty-nine years, and became the father of Terah; (+222)
25 and Nahor lived one hundred and nineteen years after he became the father of Terah (+341)
26 Terah lived seventy years, and became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. (+431)


21: 5 Now Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. (+100)
25: 26 Afterward his brother came forth with his hand holding on to Esau’s heel, so his name was called [r]Jacob; and Isaac was sixty years old when she gave birth to them. (+160)
47: 9 So Jacob said to Pharaoh, “The years of my sojourning are one hundred and [j]thirty; few and [k]unpleasant have been the [l]years of my life, nor have they [m]attained the [n]years [o]that my fathers lived during the days of their sojourning.” 10 And Jacob blessed Pharaoh, and went out from [p]his presence. 11 So Joseph [q]settled his father and his brothers and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had ordered. 12 Joseph provided his father and his brothers and all his father’s household with [r]food, according to their little ones. (Jacob enters Egypt - +290)


Ex:1240 Now the time [ah]that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And at the end of four hundred and thirty years, [ai]to the very day, all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. (+430)
Nu 32: 13 So the Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the Lord was destroyed. (+470)

So we have 431 years between the end of the Deluge to the birth of Abram; 290 years between Abram’s birth and Jacob entering Egypt; and the years in Egypt and the wandering at 470. These totals 1,191 years from the Deluge to the invasion of Canaan. One may be able to quibble on a couple decades here or there due to some textual issues, but in the end such quibbling wouldn't really change the timeline issues one iota.


So following the Bible literally, one ends up with the first estimation that's required, when did the 40 years of wandering end and the ‘invasion’ begin. I think it would be fair to say that the vast majority of Christian apologetics place the invasion between 1200 and 1400 BCE. Adding the above 1,191 years would provide a range of 2391 – 2591 BCE for the end of the Deluge.

About the ice core.

That was a fade which was extinguished by a simple discovery.

The idea, fake of course, is that ice cores are formed "every year" one over the another. This is in the pole including Greenland zones. One layer per year.

Then, drilling the ice cores, the counting of layers was by visual means, you can see the layers separated marked one from the another. But, at a certain point, after a few hundreds of layers, it was necessary the use of a computer "to calculate" the numbers of deeper layers. In other words, the number of layers was at the will and imagination of the person who create the software, and not so by detection of layers.

The worst for the theorists who claim hundreds of thousands age for ice cores is an event that happened in Greenland.

In WW2 an airplane had to make an emergency land in Greenland. The pilot was rescued and the event forgotten until the initiative of recovering the airplane became a reality. Finding the airplane was hard because the new layers of snow became ice later on, moved the airplane to a different location. After detecting the airplane under the ice, more than 300 layers of ice had to be removed to remove the airplane.

The "one layer ice core per year was debunked.

Now, we have lots of other airplanes found hundreds of feet under ice.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/04/u...-found-in-greenland-in-ice-260-feet-deep.html



I guess that your input with attempts of "scientific evidence" has been greatly debunked.

I wondered where your silly idea came from, but didn't have time to poke around then...and wow that is quite the hack job, as I dug up a source for this discredited old creationist deep layer of BS.

Funny how you grab onto anything that can attack what discredits your dogma without a bit of concern about having real facts...
http://noanswersingenesis.org.au/kuechmann_cretin_comedy.htm

In the Creation ex nihilo Magazine (Vol 19 #3:10–14, Jun–Aug 1997, an article titled The Lost Squadron by noted Australian creationist, founder and editor of that publication, Dr Carl Wieland, purports to show that, because a group of WWII airplanes were buried under several hundred feet of ice in 50 years, the technique of ice core dating is based on false premises.
<snip>
Suddenly the thickness of 268 feet of glacial ice near the east coast that was melted through by non-scientists to recover the "Glacier Girl" P-38 fighter is being used to date "3000 metres of ice core" extracted deep in the interior of the Greenland ice sheet.[2] Has he already forgotten his "rings of a tree" analogy just a few paragraphs earlier? Has he opted for no more flim-flam about annual layers? -- let's just measure the thickness in two widely-separated locations, compare them, and be done with it. Is Wieland funny, or what?

Apparently the claimers of "one layer of ice per year" not only went wrong with such a foolish idea, but also can't even count numbers and less have any knowledge of how to differentiate one layer of ice from the another. Lol.

 

[ruby sparks]

Apparently the claimers of "one layer of ice per year" not only went wrong with such a foolish idea, but also can't even count numbers and less have any knowledge of how to differentiate one layer of ice from the another. Lol.

Hey, quick question. If you were to accidentally saw through your leg while using a chainsaw, would you try to get to a hospital? Or would praying be sufficient?

Because you see, some of us think that when the woodchips are down, modern science starts to look rather more impressive to the religious than an old, middle-eastern book written by people who thought there was an ocean above the firmament.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The problem of evil? We are now in survival mode but thankfully by grace we are granted the ability to be wise - if only sometimes eh? (for lack of better phrasing) . Its all in Revelation. Its a waiting game...its now all about faith! (without seeing the direct presence of God) And the only way now is through Jesus (As theists see it)

How does a baby with cancer be wise?

And I've asked twice before this, does god know?

It's ok. It's tricky. And you don't have a ready answer. No one does. That's why it's so tricky. I'm not trying to get you to not believe in god. But hopefully you can see why things like that (and river blindness worms and eternal punishment) don't really assist much in strengthening the idea there's a truly loving creator god (which would literally be a lovely thing if it were true). I'm pretty sure you'll believe in one, almost no matter what, and I promise I'm not going to use the phrase Stockholm Syndrone whoops I did.

Actually, believers do have answers. It's just that those answers don't answer anything. They merely provide comfort and reassurance for the buyer.

You go, sparks.

Deus simulare.

 

[humbleman]

I do research the Hebrew "bible" at regular basis.

Does it say anything about elves?

Are you the one who asked me about "evil" some messages before, and my answer was DEGENERATION?

Did you tried to think about it?

Do I have to use a baby spoon and give you the explained answer little by little?

Isn't these forums of free "thoughts" so participants shared their insights and give chance for others to "think about it"?

Define evil. Here is when you will find the given answer "DEGENERATION" as the correct one.

 

[humbleman]

Apparently the claimers of "one layer of ice per year" not only went wrong with such a foolish idea, but also can't even count numbers and less have any knowledge of how to differentiate one layer of ice from the another. Lol.

Hey, quick question. If you were to accidentally saw through your leg while using a chainsaw, would you try to get to a hospital? Or would praying be sufficient?

Because you see, some of us think that when the woodchips are down, modern science starts to look rather more impressive to the religious than an old book.

In this case, hell with science.

Was caused because my own negligence or was caused by someone's fault?

If my own negligence I'll call 911, if someone's fault I'll call an attorney.

 

[ruby sparks]

I do research the Hebrew "bible" at regular basis.

Does it say anything about elves?

Are you the one who asked me about "evil" some messages before, and my answer was DEGENERATION?

Did you tried to think about it?

Do I have to use a baby spoon and give you the explained answer little by little?

Isn't these forums of free "thoughts" so participants shared their insights and give chance for others to "think about it"?

Define evil. Here is when you will find the given answer "DEGENERATION" as the correct one.

Is it an anagram?

Ok I'll give that a go.

Ignore at Eden?

Eaten no dirge?

Orange tie end?

 

[ruby sparks]

In this case, hell with science.

Was caused because my own negligence or was caused by someone's fault?

If my own negligence I'll call 911, if someone's fault I'll call an attorney.

So you don't think modern medicine is a science......

Also, none of my business but if I were you I'd dial 911 either way. If you don't bleed to death, you can call your attorney later. If your bibble book says different, it's possible that you have a bogus edition written by elves. They are very mischievious.

 

[Jason the Rationalist]

In this case, hell with science.

Was caused because my own negligence or was caused by someone's fault?

If my own negligence I'll call 911, if someone's fault I'll call an attorney.

So you don't think modern medicine is a science......

Also, none of my business but if I were you I'd dial 911 either way. If you don't bleed to death, you can call your attorney later. If your bibble book says different, it's possible that you have a bogus edition written by elves.

Attorney, call coming in on another line: "Do you mind holding?"

 

[funinspace]

That is one way to wash, rinse, and spin the OT. Though, if this assembly of writings is supposed to be God-breathed...it should really be no more than about 4,600 years. Of course that has real problems with the already existing Sumerian and Egyptian societies, among other problems with later big miracles that can no longer work.

The Bible seems to be quite clear about the timeline from the Deluge thru the Exodus. FWIW, Genesis provides a similarly clear timeline back to Adam. I am not going into detail on this, as it is not relevant to questions about the claims surrounding the Deluge. Below are portions of the text in question, I include a larger section where it clearly describes the continuum of generations in Ge 11:10-15.

11:10-15 These are the records of the generations of Shem. Shem was one hundred years old, and [j]became the father of Arpachshad two years after the flood; 11 and Shem lived five hundred years after he became the father of Arpachshad, and he had other sons and daughters. 12 Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah; 13 and Arpachshad lived four hundred and three years after he became the father of Shelah, and he had other sons and daughters. 14 Shelah lived thirty years, and became the father of Eber; 15 and Shelah lived four hundred and three years after he became the father of Eber, and he had other sons and daughters.

Ge:
11:10 This is the account of Shem. Shem was one hundred years old when he became the father of Arphaxad, two years after the flood. And after becoming the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived five hundred years and had other sons and daughters. (+2)
12 Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah; (+37)
14 Shelah lived thirty years, and became the father of Eber; (+67)
16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and became the father of Peleg (+101)
18 Peleg lived thirty years, and became the father of Reu; (+131)
20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and became the father of Serug; (+163)
22 Serug lived thirty years, and became the father of Nahor; (+193)
24 Nahor lived twenty-nine years, and became the father of Terah; (+222)
25 and Nahor lived one hundred and nineteen years after he became the father of Terah (+341)
26 Terah lived seventy years, and became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. (+431)


21: 5 Now Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. (+100)
25: 26 Afterward his brother came forth with his hand holding on to Esau’s heel, so his name was called [r]Jacob; and Isaac was sixty years old when she gave birth to them. (+160)
47: 9 So Jacob said to Pharaoh, “The years of my sojourning are one hundred and [j]thirty; few and [k]unpleasant have been the [l]years of my life, nor have they [m]attained the [n]years [o]that my fathers lived during the days of their sojourning.” 10 And Jacob blessed Pharaoh, and went out from [p]his presence. 11 So Joseph [q]settled his father and his brothers and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had ordered. 12 Joseph provided his father and his brothers and all his father’s household with [r]food, according to their little ones. (Jacob enters Egypt - +290)


Ex:1240 Now the time [ah]that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And at the end of four hundred and thirty years, [ai]to the very day, all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. (+430)
Nu 32: 13 So the Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the Lord was destroyed. (+470)

So we have 431 years between the end of the Deluge to the birth of Abram; 290 years between Abram’s birth and Jacob entering Egypt; and the years in Egypt and the wandering at 470. These totals 1,191 years from the Deluge to the invasion of Canaan. One may be able to quibble on a couple decades here or there due to some textual issues, but in the end such quibbling wouldn't really change the timeline issues one iota.


So following the Bible literally, one ends up with the first estimation that's required, when did the 40 years of wandering end and the ‘invasion’ begin. I think it would be fair to say that the vast majority of Christian apologetics place the invasion between 1200 and 1400 BCE. Adding the above 1,191 years would provide a range of 2391 – 2591 BCE for the end of the Deluge.



I wondered where your silly idea came from, but didn't have time to poke around then...and wow that is quite the hack job, as I dug up a source for this discredited old creationist deep layer of BS.

Funny how you grab onto anything that can attack what discredits your dogma without a bit of concern about having real facts...
http://noanswersingenesis.org.au/kuechmann_cretin_comedy.htm

Apparently the claimers of "one layer of ice per year" not only went wrong with such a foolish idea, but also can't even count numbers and less have any knowledge of how to differentiate one layer of ice from the another. Lol.

Wow, such a counter argument. Post BS creationist argument; have it shown to be totally made up creationist BS; make snarky reply. Winning method every time...ROTFLMAO.

It is comical that you think that climatologists can't properly analyze the annual deposits of ice layers deep in the glaciers, even though humans can now send exploration vehicles to Mars, we can replace pretty much every human organ, we are decoding the human genome, and we carry computers around in our pockets. Yeah, climatologists/geologists all must just be delusional cuz they hate god...

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

In this case, hell with science.

Was caused because my own negligence or was caused by someone's fault?

If my own negligence I'll call 911, if someone's fault I'll call an attorney.

So you don't think modern medicine is a science......

Also, none of my business but if I were you I'd dial 911 either way. If you don't bleed to death, you can call your attorney later. If your bibble book says different, it's possible that you have a bogus edition written by elves. They are very mischievious.

I get your drift but there is an oft overlooked constraint operating here. The worst of the crazies are simply no longer represented in the gene pool. They've leaped from cliffs believing they could fly, laid with poisonous snakes, eaten the wrong mushrooms and otherwise awarded themselves Darwin status. So we're left with the marginal crazies who mime these thing but never actually engage. Natural Selection rules.

 

[funinspace]

In this case, hell with science.

Was caused because my own negligence or was caused by someone's fault?

If my own negligence I'll call 911, if someone's fault I'll call an attorney.

So you don't think modern medicine is a science......

Also, none of my business but if I were you I'd dial 911 either way. If you don't bleed to death, you can call your attorney later. If your bibble book says different, it's possible that you have a bogus edition written by elves.

Attorney, call coming in on another line: "Do you mind holding?"

And he'll need to pray that the 'someone' at fault ain't a Christian either. Of course he can always rationalize that this other Christian ain't a True Christian, so he can sue to his hearts content...

 

[Jason the Rationalist]

Attorney, call coming in on another line: "Do you mind holding?"

And he'll need to pray that the 'someone' at fault ain't a Christian either. Of course he can always rationalize that this other Christian ain't a True Christian, so he can sue to his hearts content...

I'll be interested to see if cutting one's leg off with a chainsaw and then calling an attorney is part of god's plan. I'm going with a different option there. It doesn't look like the sort of plan that should get past a reasonably sharp committee. But you can never tell.

Leg gets cut off by chainsaw - own fault --> 911 - chance of survival: reasonable
Leg gets cut off by chainsaw - own fault --> Attorney - chance of survival: poor + potential cash bonus
Leg gets cut off by chainsaw - own fault --> 911 then Attorney - chance of survival: reasonable + potential cash bonus
Leg gets cut off by chainsaw - own fault --> Attorney then 911 - chance of survival: poor + potential cash bonus

I don't think the odds are going to improve with the next set

Leg gets cut off by chainsaw - someone else's fault --> 911 - chance of survival: reasonable
Leg gets cut off by chainsaw - someone else's fault --> Attorney - chance of survival: poor + potential cash bonus
Leg gets cut off by chainsaw - someone else's fault --> 911 then Attorney - chance of survival: reasonable + potential cash bonus
Leg gets cut off by chainsaw - someone else's fault --> Attorney then 911 - chance of survival: poor + potential cash bonus

No, they don't appear to have done. Sorry for having wasted everyone's time.

 

[ruby sparks]

Wow, such a counter argument. Post BS creationist argument; have it shown to be totally made up creationist BS; make snarky reply. Winning method every time...ROTFLMAO.

It is comical that you think that climatologists can't properly analyze the annual deposits of ice layers deep in the glaciers, even though humans can now send exploration vehicles to Mars, we can replace pretty much every human organ, we are decoding the human genome, and we carry computers around in our pockets. Yeah, climatologists all must just be delusional cuz they hate god...

My favourite is Philae, the space probe. After going through one of the firmament windows, it travelled 4 billion miles and managed to land on a comet going 84 thousand miles per hour in a different direction. Ok it fell over afterwards. Apparently, the seawater in the celestial ocean had rusted some of it's machinery.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Wow, such a counter argument. Post BS creationist argument; have it shown to be totally made up creationist BS; make snarky reply. Winning method every time...ROTFLMAO.

It is comical that you think that climatologists can't properly analyze the annual deposits of ice layers deep in the glaciers, even though humans can now send exploration vehicles to Mars, we can replace pretty much every human organ, we are decoding the human genome, and we carry computers around in our pockets. Yeah, climatologists all must just be delusional cuz they hate god...

My favourite is Philae, the space probe. After going through one of the firmament windows, it travelled 4 billion miles and managed to land on a comet going 84 thousand miles per hour in a different direction. Ok it fell over afterwards. Apparently, the seawater in the celestial ocean had rusted some of it's machinery.

Oh, please. Philae is sitting on a sound stage in New Mexico. The whole "we sent this space ship to a comet" thing was a video that Stanley Kubrick put together so that NASA "engineers" could keep being given taxpayer dollars to fund their pedophile rings with Hillary Clinton.

 

[funinspace]

Wow, such a counter argument. Post BS creationist argument; have it shown to be totally made up creationist BS; make snarky reply. Winning method every time...ROTFLMAO.

It is comical that you think that climatologists can't properly analyze the annual deposits of ice layers deep in the glaciers, even though humans can now send exploration vehicles to Mars, we can replace pretty much every human organ, we are decoding the human genome, and we carry computers around in our pockets. Yeah, climatologists all must just be delusional cuz they hate god...

My favourite is Philae, the space probe. After going through one of the firmament windows, it travelled 4 billion miles and managed to land on a comet going 84 thousand miles per hour in a different direction. Ok it fell over afterwards. Apparently, the seawater in the celestial ocean had rusted some of it's machinery.

Oh, please. Philae is sitting on a sound stage in New Mexico. The whole "we sent this space ship to a comet" thing was a video that Stanley Kubrick put together so that NASA "engineers" could keep being given taxpayer dollars to fund their pedophile rings with Hillary Clinton.

Was Elvis one of the Grippers?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Are you the one who asked me about "evil" some messages before, and my answer was DEGENERATION?

Um, no.

Ruby asked about ELVES some time back, and your reply (not answer) was a complete non sequitur.

But if you for some reason thought the question was about EVIL, then, yeah,




...still a non sequitur...

 

[abaddon]

Learner,

The problem of evil is an indictment of God, and God only. There's something missing in him if evil happens to any sentient being in any circumstance at all. He's either not all-powerful or not all-good or not all-knowing. And if he's not those three things together then what kind of god is he?

To answer without being evasive, you cannot say anything that turns it into a question of human behavior.

The problem of evil? We are now in survival mode but thankfully by grace we are granted the ability to be wise - if only sometimes eh? (for lack of better phrasing) . Its all in Revelation. Its a waiting game...its now all about faith! (without seeing the direct presence of God) And the only way now is through Jesus (As theists see it)

Ok. I was looking for a more direct sign from you that the two beliefs "God exists" and "Tragedies happen" had even connected at all in your head. It looks like maybe they have, a little tiny bit at least (I guess ), and the theological excuse-making for God is active as the others were saying.

Somehow, in spite of seeing theists believe whatever suits them time and again however insane or stupid, it keeps on surprising me.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I was looking for a more direct sign from you that the two beliefs "God exists" and "Tragedies happen" had even connected at all in your head.

Oh, they're connected. There's an interlock on the doors so only one can be explored at a time. Look at tragedies, lock out the idea of an omn-good god.
Look at God, lock out the ideas of tragedy.