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Student Protesting and Consequences

I think that the idea isn't merely about First Amendment but the First Amendment as it applies to the current location of the walk out. So, it's like saying "This place isn't safe. I am going to use my free speech and free peaceful, assembly to walk out of this unsafe place and demand policy change to make it safer."

So, to repoman, if a million students believe they need a wall to make their schools safe, then they might organize a similar protest. That would make the analogy better. Of course, you might also show some evidence of kids dying in school due to not having a wall to help your case, but it isn't clear that is necessary.

I am not really seeing a response to this.

So there appears to be a meme here of content neutrality or "if they can protest a particular x in X, then they can protest any x in X."

My comment was meant to indicate that X might be a smaller subset of the world of politics, in this case such things that the students think directly affects their survival in school.

So, if the school beats them every day, then they might walk out in protest. Or if the school does not provide lunch, recess, and toilet paper then they might walk out in protest. This sort of set of things is much less than the set X. It's a subset lesser than X, an X' if you will. So maybe we're talking about X' c X. And we're talking if they can protest particular x in X', then maybe they can protest any x in X', which is a different question than the meme from detractors.

To give some more concrete examples... Suppose there was a church in town that beat the students. Ought the students walk out of school to protest? That would be an x in X, but not an x in X'.

This is actually a non-political functional difference that remains content-neutral.

So far:
*crickets*

I have two comments about your posts...

First, from a purely civil rights perspective, the purpose of the protest must remain immaterial. So yes, if 50 students wanted to skip a half-day of school to join a local protest about Trump's stupid wall, they have exactly the same rights and protections as these students protesting against gun violence inside their schools.

From an optices point of view, it certainly makes a big difference, but not from a legal one (imo)

Second, I am going to go back to my point about parental permission - if the 50 kids leaving early to protest for Trump's wall have written permission from their parents, I don't believe that any school anywhere in the U.S. has the right or authority to punish the student with a suspension.
 
Yeah, I'm the fascist for supporting students walking out of school in protest. :lol:

My position is the keep-the-government-out-of-our-speech one.

Whatever bullshit helps you to not see murdered children as a problem that should inspire reevaluation of your ideology of selfishness. YEEHAW! Ain't no idiot kids gon' take mah gunz!

Would you support the kids who support the NRA and walking out to offer their opposing views?

Would I support the students or their viewpoint? No. I disagree with it.

Would I take the position that the school has absolutely no right to punish them in a discriminatory manner because of their viewpoint. Yes, without question.

Would I take the further position that the school has zero right or authority to punish students for leaving early if the students have written permission from their parents to leave school early to attend this NRA demonstration? Yes, absolutely.
 
Would you support the kids who support the NRA and walking out to offer their opposing views?

Would I support the students or their viewpoint? No. I disagree with it.

Would I take the position that the school has absolutely no right to punish them in a discriminatory manner because of their viewpoint. Yes, without question.

Would I take the further position that the school has zero right or authority to punish students for leaving early if the students have written permission from their parents to leave school early to attend this NRA demonstration? Yes, absolutely.

Again, not dismal, but agree. Same actions as going to 7/11 down the street.
 
I thought the first amendment had to do with free political speech, not lima beans.

I am not 100% sure what dismal is trying to say, but if I am parsing it correctly he is actually correct.

The reason for the walk-out cannot matter with regard to the school's punishment.

So, IF skipping school or leaving school early (without parental permission) is punishable with a 3-day suspension, then it does not matter if the student's reason for leaving was gun violence in the school, gun violence at the local church, Trump's wall, or the color of lima beans. All four students should receive 3-day suspension without reference to their reasons for leaving.

IF, however, a student leaving school because he doesn't like the color of the lima beans receives a 1-day in-school detention (and a plate of lima beans), the school cannot then turn around and give the students protesting gun violence a 3-day suspension and expel the knucklehead supporting Trump's wall.

That is what the USSC says.
 
Can't answer for dismal, but I agree. If punishment is X for leaving school to hang out at 7/11 then punishment X for this.

And I also agree EXCEPT for the Texas school supervisor adding that parental permission will not make it an excused absence.

I can almost guarantee you that parental permission is sufficient to make other absences "excused" and non-punishable.
 
School officials should not threaten discipline to discourage participation in specific expressive activities where there is no direct threat to a school or any students.

Exactly what those bozos did do.

Students should be aware that a decision to absent oneself from school without a “valid excuse” may be defined by school officials as truancy and can lead to discipline regardless of the reason. The issue is what constitutes a “valid excuse.” In Kentucky, truancy is defined as having been absent from school without valid excuse for three or more days, or tardy without valid excuse on three or more days.

Every state is different, but this is right in line with what I was saying before about "excused absence" vs "truancy". So in Kentucky, even if the school rejects parental permission and marks the absence as "unexcused" - they cannot claim "truancy" until there are three or more unexcused absences. A 1-day protest is not going to qualify, and if any Kentucky schools are threatening students with suspensions the way Texas is doing, they will be in violation.


http://www.lex18.com/story/37577659/aclu-gives-tip-to-students-who-want-to-protest
 
Do you want me to repeat my position again? It doesn't seem to be having much effect.
Regardless, my position is the law of the land.

Gee, you must have been such a good little boy in school.
When I was in grade 10, a teacher brought everyone who wanted to go, to a Vietnam War protest in Berkeley - on a school day. For credit. We learned more that day than probably any other day of the year. Not only about political activism, but about what teargas smells and feels like, about getting roughed up by police, and about how smelly your average liberal protester was at the time (I think they've cleaned up their act since then).
Too bad yoursubmissive obeisance deprived you of a "real" education.
Fuck your authoritarian edicts.
 
Do you want me to repeat my position again? It doesn't seem to be having much effect.

Regardless, my position is the law of the land.

Yes, I know. What I'd like to know now is at what point do human lives become more valuable to you than rules?

Well, fortunately we have a Constitution to protect us from the fascist impulses of totalitarian assholes. <snip>
 
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Do you want me to repeat my position again? It doesn't seem to be having much effect.
Regardless, my position is the law of the land.

Gee, you must have been such a good little boy in school.
When I was in grade 10, a teacher brought everyone who wanted to go, to a Vietnam War protest in Berkeley - on a school day. For credit. We learned more that day than probably any other day of the year. Not only about political activism, but about what teargas smells and feels like, about getting roughed up by police, and about how smelly your average liberal protester was at the time (I think they've cleaned up their act since then).
Too bad yoursubmissive obeisance deprived you of a "real" education.
Fuck your authoritarian edicts.

<snip>

I'm the one against the government engaging in Constitionally prohibited viewpoint discrimination.
 
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Do you want me to repeat my position again? It doesn't seem to be having much effect.

Regardless, my position is the law of the land.

Yes, I know. What I'd like to know now is at what point do human lives become more valuable to you than rules?

Well, fortunately we have a Constitution to protect us from the fascist impulses of totalitarian assholes. <snip>

Well that is a convenient retort in lieu of answering the question. At what point DO human lives matter to you more than worshiping rules?
 
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Well, fortunately we have a Constitution to protect us from the fascist impulses of totalitarian assholes. <snip>

Well that is a convenient retort in lieu of answering the question. At what point DO human lives matter to you more than worshiping rules?

I support the government not oppressing people. <snip>
 
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Well, fortunately we have a Constitution to protect us from the fascist impulses of totalitarian assholes. Like you.

Well that is a convenient retort in lieu of answering the question. At what point DO human lives matter to you more than worshiping rules?
We value human life more than rules. Many of us would be willing to break rules for much lesser causes. I would like to see fair morally minded rules with clear exceptions that allows for good judgement calls. Such things already exist. Phrases like police discretion and judges purview come to mind. In the absence of unbending rules, we stand ready to be held accountable for our violations as we strive to have rules altered for the betterment of society.

We should endeavor to not conflate what is permissible from what is not. We encourage others to voice their opinions, but as they do, they should not violate other rules. If one breaks rules while protesting, it's disengenuous to regard any punishment as being for voicing their opinions in protest.

If you kill someone while protesting, you will be held accountable not for what you're allowed to do but rather what you're not allowed to do. If you trespass while protesting, you should be applauded for being willing to stand tall for what you believe in, but when you suffer the wrath of a trespass notice being thrust upon you, don't tell others you were the victim of being denied free speech; instead, own up to what you did that was wrong and accept that you're being held accountable for your impermissible violations.
 
At what point DO human lives matter to you more than worshiping rules?
At what point are "human lives" dependent on protesting during school hours?

Another dumb non-answer. When kids speak out against the backward, inhumane culture that creates a warm welcome for mass murderers, you all condemn the kids and focus on how to punish them.

So, Derec, at what point do the murders of children actually make you pause in your punishment mentality?
 
Well, fortunately we have a Constitution to protect us from the fascist impulses of totalitarian assholes. Like you.

Well that is a convenient retort in lieu of answering the question. At what point DO human lives matter to you more than worshiping rules?

I support the government not oppressing people. <snip>

You keep making these awesome jokes. The person who supports kids taking to the streets to protest the inhumane world <snip> is the fascist, <snip>. Right. :rotfl:
 
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Can we also stop viewing kids as non-human cardboard cutouts with no thoughts of their own?

Exactly. Let them think for themselves, make their decisions, and deal with their own self made consequences. This coddling culture needs to end if we want to have free thinking citizens with a sense of personal responsibility.

^ This is such a weird statement considering your posts in the NRA to America thread where Angry Floof talks about holding rightwingers accountable for their own decisions and not coddling them, and you talk about the importance of reaching out to them with compassion and understanding and not advocating for negative consequences.
 
I thought the first amendment had to do with free political speech, not lima beans.

I am not 100% sure what dismal is trying to say, but if I am parsing it correctly he is actually correct.

The reason for the walk-out cannot matter with regard to the school's punishment.

So, IF skipping school or leaving school early (without parental permission) is punishable with a 3-day suspension, then it does not matter if the student's reason for leaving was gun violence in the school, gun violence at the local church, Trump's wall, or the color of lima beans. All four students should receive 3-day suspension without reference to their reasons for leaving.

IF, however, a student leaving school because he doesn't like the color of the lima beans receives a 1-day in-school detention (and a plate of lima beans), the school cannot then turn around and give the students protesting gun violence a 3-day suspension and expel the knucklehead supporting Trump's wall.

That is what the USSC says.

There is a primitive rule of liberty being violated and that is that kids are physically forced to be in school. You skip school you can find yourself hunted down by a truant officer. You run, you can be chased and brought down. Everything we are discussing is layered, more abstract notions of law and civil society on top of that. Lest we not forget it.

(1) Kids are forced to be in schools. Yet they own their own bodies.

Kids are sent to schools so that parents can get time away from them to work. So that kids can be in a relatively safe environment that promotes their health, well-being, and educates them to be productive members of society and/or to work for The Man. Parents generally (except when they excuse them) give the schools purview over educating their kids and providing a safe, functional environment for the kids to be part of. A consequence of this is that schools must minimize disruptions.

(2) Schools must be safe. Schools must minimize disruptions as a matter of practice.

The rights of people are not only Constitutional but also controversial with respect to their meaning in the Bill of Rights to this day and extra-Constitutional with respect to other rights--like collective rights, workers' rights, human rights that are not so expressed with a mere Constitutional argument.

(3) It is entirely possible that citizens (in this case kids) deserve more than the Constitution [or at least more than the USSC has currently ruled on].
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The reality right now is that young adults are being forced to be in consistently traumatizing environments. [Teachers, too, by the way, but that is another discussion]. A school shooting remains rare, but these young adults are less safe than they were. Also, the frequency of coverage of school shootings is so great right now there is a monthly or weekly story and traumatization. Extra security measures at schools make drills, lockdowns, and knowledge of lockdowns a regularly scary event.

So there is a perception (at the very least of unsafe environment) but there's also a reality of a regularly disruptive environment due to these traumas. So, the schools themselves have become disruptive because the government has not solved the problem of all the shootings. This situation isn't actually the kids' fault as they've been thrust into it, forced into it. [see (1)]. Schools [and their government that funds/orders them] have failed their duties. [see (2)].

We cannot blame children protesting their conditions of existence (8 or so hours a day) because their condition hasn't been dealt with. We especially cannot use the excuse that their peaceful assembly for redress is disruptive when their lives are already being seriously disrupted by these constant scares.

If the kids were protesting lima beans, then that would be an added disruption to the school. If the kids were protesting how gun violence is wreaking havoc on their lives because we make them stay in these buildings, then they are trying not to be disruptive in the long-term. They are also trying to improve their survival.

And I say that even without their parents' permission. What's at stake here is akin to whether a young adult can appeal to the courts when their parents aren't taking care of them. In this case, the government is in loco parentis, both neglectful, and then due to conflict of interest, trying to apply consequences. Personally, I think if kids walk out of school and they are broadly supported to do it, while the Supreme Court is forced to rule in favor of right to protest unsafe/unhealthy environment by young adults, it's a good thing.
 
If it was just about free speech, the students could protest after school, not while they are supposed to be studying.

(1) The students have the right to control their own bodies and minds.
(2) School building itself is a disruption every week due to these shootings. The students if successful will make less disruptions long-term, not more.
(3) A protest during school is most effective, not after school, though the two are not mutually effective.
 
Why should you not be allowed to skip classes for whatever reason you want? It may effect your grades. Your grades should not be adjusted upwards because you skipped class, but nor should you be told you can't do so, and a black mark shouldn't be out on your record to prevent you from getting into college.

Can we stop all the coddling? Let the students make their choices and make them accept the consequences.

Why should skipping school by a young adult for a reasonable reason be a black mark at all, if they are willing to make up the work? You can take a personal day from work, right? Could this be the same thing?
 
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