Career Success -- A Lot of Luck?

[BH]

I have a question. My degree is in history and political science. I did some grad work in history and also in education. I taught school a little while and then got back into business.

I understand my history degree wouldn't help that much but I have found lots of places will not hire me not because it is the wrong degree, but because it is a degree. Have been told it makes me overqualified. Why is this?

I am in good shape and have a good job right now and am happy. But I do not understand why the degree should hurt someone.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I have a question. My degree is in history and political science. I did some grad work in history and also in education. I taught school a little while and then got back into business.

I understand my history degree wouldn't help that much but I have found lots of places will not hire me not because it is the wrong degree, but because it is a degree. Have been told it makes me overqualified. Why is this?

I am in good shape and have a good job right now and am happy. But I do not understand why the degree should hurt someone.

AFAICT "overqualified" means you're unlikely to stay around.

 

[dismal]

I have a question. My degree is in history and political science. I did some grad work in history and also in education. I taught school a little while and then got back into business.

I understand my history degree wouldn't help that much but I have found lots of places will not hire me not because it is the wrong degree, but because it is a degree. Have been told it makes me overqualified. Why is this?

I am in good shape and have a good job right now and am happy. But I do not understand why the degree should hurt someone.

AFAICT "overqualified" means you're unlikely to stay around.

Yes, it can also create the impression you aren't focused and maybe don't really know what you want to do.

Once you've worked a few years in business those concerns tend to go away. But they can be an obstacle to a career change.

Also, sometimes it's just a nice way of saying they don't think you're a good fit.

 

[lpetrich]

(Donald Trump...)

By almost all accounts I can find, he has been running his businesses into the ground since day one. He started out will quite a bit, and loans can help you out for awhile, but just when financial ruin was on the horizon, Trump has been mysteriously saved.

His father was a property developer who got rich off of that, and he was something of a pampered pet. He misbehaved a lot in school, and he was sent to a military academy for a while. He went to the Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania, but we have never been able to find out his grades there. Did he hire ghostwriters to do all his schoolwork? Or plagiarize it?

So he was like Paris Hilton or George Bush II, an inheritor of wealth who has gotten away with being a big embarrassment.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Less than 20 percent of American households break six figures. Almost 40 percent of Americans hold at least a two-year college degree. Stats like these are easy to find. Are you now going to shift goalposts to a four-year degree? That's almost a third of Americans.

I'm not "shifting goalposts". If you don't have a decent college degree, you didn't show up. That implies a 4 year degree from a decent school in a major that someone would actually want to hire. If you don't have this you have not "shown up" to be a corporate drone.

Look, I'll be the first to admit that there are many, many jobs out there that simply do not require a college degree, but employers require one nonetheless. But your 80 percent perspiration argument really just came out of your ass.

It's a Woody Allen quote, so not my ass.

No, you just quoted socioeconomic advice from an actor/director, and then have the nerve to ask others to cite commonly accessible data. Well done.

 

[beero1000]

(Donald Trump...)

By almost all accounts I can find, he has been running his businesses into the ground since day one. He started out will quite a bit, and loans can help you out for awhile, but just when financial ruin was on the horizon, Trump has been mysteriously saved.

His father was a property developer who got rich off of that, and he was something of a pampered pet. He misbehaved a lot in school, and he was sent to a military academy for a while. He went to the Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania, but we have never been able to find out his grades there. Did he hire ghostwriters to do all his schoolwork? Or plagiarize it?

So he was like Paris Hilton or George Bush II, an inheritor of wealth who has gotten away with being a big embarrassment.

IIRC he transferred in from Fordham and only got into Wharton because of his family's connections.

 

[BH]

Concerning Trump. If I recall correctly someone who posts here or on Secular Cafe has a relative who is an attorney who was on the presidential transition team. This poster said that his relative said all of the people who Trump was setting up appointments with were people off the radar and who were potential business connections. He is basically using the powers of the presidency to somehow help his business.

 

[dismal]

I'm not "shifting goalposts". If you don't have a decent college degree, you didn't show up. That implies a 4 year degree from a decent school in a major that someone would actually want to hire. If you don't have this you have not "shown up" to be a corporate drone.



It's a Woody Allen quote, so not my ass.

No, you just quoted socioeconomic advice from an actor/director, and then have the nerve to ask others to cite commonly accessible data. Well done.

I believe it was his advice on how to make it as a writer.

But, in a way you're illustrating my point. You could ask: "gee, diz, you're a highly successful titan of industry in the corporate world - what advice would you have to a kid who wants to follow in your footsteps". Then I'd tell you more or less what I've already told you. Get a degree from a decent school in a major someone would want to hire. Learn how to talk, dress, and act like other corporate people. You'd be on your way.

Instead, you just want to dick around on the internet and call people who have presented themselves to the market in a way that results in success "lucky".

 

[bilby]

Concerning Trump. If I recall correctly someone who posts here or on Secular Cafe has a relative who is an attorney who was on the presidential transition team. This poster said that his relative said all of the people who Trump was setting up appointments with were people off the radar and who were potential business connections. He is basically using the powers of the presidency to somehow help his business enrich himself.

FTFY.

The only person he is helping is himself. 'Help his business' is a euphemism for 'make money for himself'. Let's not help him to pretend that he cares about some other shareholders or stakeholders. He cares about one person, and one person alone. Everyone else is either a useful tool, or an obstacle to be avoided or eliminated.

 

[BH]

I'm not "shifting goalposts". If you don't have a decent college degree, you didn't show up. That implies a 4 year degree from a decent school in a major that someone would actually want to hire. If you don't have this you have not "shown up" to be a corporate drone.



It's a Woody Allen quote, so not my ass.

No, you just quoted socioeconomic advice from an actor/director, and then have the nerve to ask others to cite commonly accessible data. Well done.

I believe it was his advice on how to make it as a writer.

But, in a way you're illustrating my point. You could ask: "gee, diz, you're a highly successful titan of industry in the corporate world - what advice would you have to a kid who wants to follow in your footsteps". Then I'd tell you more or less what I've already told you. Get a degree from a decent school in a major someone would want to hire. Learn how to talk, dress, and act like other corporate people. You'd be on your way.

Instead, you just want to dick around on the internet and call people who have presented themselves to the market in a way that results in success "lucky".

Dismal has a point. You may know less or be less capable than others but if you have the image some people will fawn over you. Everyone gripes about smokeblowers and bullshitters. But I read once that people who smokeblow and bullshit are not really good at seeing when other people do it to them. Life isn't fair and when dealing with the psychology of other people you better be prepared to be underwhelmed and disappointed with the people you often have as supervisors.

One of the best advisers in my life told me to "dumb it down". Lots of business owners and higher managers do not want intelligent people working for them, just people who do what you are told. Being smart and showing it just alienates you to such people.

There are jobs where brains are rewarded and demanded as a must. All well and fine, but the bulk of jobs around here don't.

 

[TSwizzle]

But, in a way you're illustrating my point. You could ask: "gee, diz, you're a highly successful titan of industry in the corporate world - what advice would you have to a kid who wants to follow in your footsteps". Then I'd tell you more or less what I've already told you. Get a degree from a decent school in a major someone would want to hire. Learn how to talk, dress, and act like other corporate people. You'd be on your way.

I think that is pretty much a good starting point to at least getting a start in a career. You're probably not going to get very far if you drop out of high school etc. But there are plenty successful people that get a lot further up the ladder that have just been fortunate to be in the right place at the right time and exploited situations to their advantage with bullshit. And often times it's not what you know but who you know.

 

[BH]

But, in a way you're illustrating my point. You could ask: "gee, diz, you're a highly successful titan of industry in the corporate world - what advice would you have to a kid who wants to follow in your footsteps". Then I'd tell you more or less what I've already told you. Get a degree from a decent school in a major someone would want to hire. Learn how to talk, dress, and act like other corporate people. You'd be on your way.

I think that is pretty much a good starting point to at least getting a start in a career. You're probably not going to get very far if you drop out of high school etc. But there are plenty successful people that get a lot further up the ladder that have just been fortunate to be in the right place at the right time and exploited situations to their advantage with bullshit. And often times it's not what you know but who you know.

This is also true. I live in a small city. I have had people tell me they have hired people to work for them because their relatives were willing to hire their relative who needed a job in return.

Don't forget buyouts et al.. Lots of time the purchase of property or businesses will result in contracts with the bigger firm where the owner of the sold property is guaranteed a job of some sort by the bigger buying firm.

I know of a case where a man hired another man for a job because the man had a relative who offered to cut some of the owners supply costs if he would do so.


I have a great aunt who was a high up manager for a large retailing company. She told me she often interviewed lots of people to fill positions ranging from salesperson to store manager all through her career. She thought she had the perfect candidate and was going to hire this or that person but got a call from the home office saying she was to pick this other person.

One time I was filling out an application for a job at a government agency and did not get it. I asked the man who took the hiring manager's place (new manager went to my church) why and what I could do to be qualified. He told me there was nothing wrong with me, he would have loved to have seen me get that job. But they are told over the phone who they are going to hire before they even put applications out. He said at that time the big thing was hiring women and since I was not a woman I was out of luck. At least the man was honest and told me there really wasn't anything wrong with me per see.

I freely admit that in our system if you define qualified as the common person considers it then often the most qualifed don't get the job.

And after years in the workforce I have come to another realization. Most jobs really do not require a lot of training or skill anymore since so much is cookie cutter or done with computers or computer programmable machines. And college degrees don't go far anymore in a lot of fields because so many people have them. And to get to point z up the ladder you have to go through a,b,c,.... and there is only so much time and so many of those positions opened at any given time.

There is a point where one should be ambitious but also be content at the same time and grateful for what they have.

 

[Politesse]

I have a question. My degree is in history and political science. I did some grad work in history and also in education. I taught school a little while and then got back into business.

I understand my history degree wouldn't help that much but I have found lots of places will not hire me not because it is the wrong degree, but because it is a degree. Have been told it makes me overqualified. Why is this?

I am in good shape and have a good job right now and am happy. But I do not understand why the degree should hurt someone.

Educated employees are troublemakers.

 

[TSwizzle]

This is also true. I live in a small city. I have had people tell me they have hired people to work for them because their relatives were willing to hire their relative who needed a job in return.

This sort of thing happens frequently, it goes on in my city. I friend of mine applied for a job as a meter reader, electric or gas, can't remember You would not believe the hoops he had to jump through to even get to the interview. There were scores, possibly hundreds of applicants for the job. He did get an interview that lasted about an hour with various tests. For a meter reading job !! Anyway, he didn't get it as the job was given internal to a relative on the hiring team. It was already decided long before my friend had to go through this charade. My friend has a degree from UCLA and can't get a decent gig. He's working for UPS as a driver !!

And after years in the workforce I have come to another realization. Most jobs really do not require a lot of training or skill anymore since so much is cookie cutter or done with computers or computer programmable machines. And college degrees don't go far anymore in a lot of fields because so many people have them. And to get to point z up the ladder you have to go through a,b,c,.... and there is only so much time and so many of those positions opened at any given time.

I think you may be correct on that. But I have dealt with people that have degrees in business administration and they can't save a file to sub directory in Windows etc. Bloody clueless. How is that possible ? How can someone go through four years of further education (let alone high school) and not know some basic computer skills. Some of them are just dim and a degree was wasted. They can't figure out how to transfer a phone call or compose an email.

My daughter is looking for work during the summer, I can get her work for a few weeks where I work but she wants to try something else. She's only 19 and she she went for an interview for job at a well known entertainment theme park company for a part time, minimum wage position. Weekend stuff, giving directions to guests, that sort of thing. Her interview was an hour late in starting, she was interviewed with six other kids, some of them still in high school. She had to perform a team exercise building a model car from lego bricks or something, she was to choose a plush toy from a selection of toys available that best describes her. Minimum wage position mind, not a VP position at head office. She didn't get the shitty job and was in tears. I was furious, not that she didn't get the job but at the fiasco she was made to go through. It was a four hour marathon with two Uber to get to the interview and back.

 

[braces_for_impact]

If anything, Trump and all the "best people" he hired are instructive. Kushner, Trump's children, Devos, Icahn, Mnuchin, Roth, LeFrak...any of these people seem particularly talented? Intelligent? Industrious? Many of these at most could be said to be ready to take advantage of Reagans first big government giveaway.

Now there are talented and successful millionaires/billionaires, but there are just as many if not more people with lots of money that are rock fucking dumb. This is the worship of the rich I alluded to earlier. It has to stop.

 

[Axulus]

The other dangerous side of this coin is that, like we see with Trump, wealthy people get a pass for doing things that others can not, and often, at least on the right, their motives are assumed to be "pure" from the beginning.

Case in point, how the fuck did that asshole ever become wealthy ? He is the epitome of a bullshit merchant but he seems be taken seriously by people that should know better. He's fine as a game show presenter but a business man, a captain of industry ? The guy is a fucking moron. I suppose he got his start from his wealthy father and that gave him a leg up.

He got lucky by investing in some major commercial real estate projects in Manhattan in the late 70's/early 80's, right before a significant real estate price boom in that market.

A monkey putting money into any commercial real estate project at the time would've made plenty of money.

 

[laughing dog]

The other dangerous side of this coin is that, like we see with Trump, wealthy people get a pass for doing things that others can not, and often, at least on the right, their motives are assumed to be "pure" from the beginning.

Case in point, how the fuck did that asshole ever become wealthy ? He is the epitome of a bullshit merchant but he seems be taken seriously by people that should know better. He's fine as a game show presenter but a business man, a captain of industry ? The guy is a fucking moron. I suppose he got his start from his wealthy father and that gave him a leg up.

He got lucky by investing in some major commercial real estate projects in Manhattan in the late 70's/early 80's, right before a significant real estate price boom in that market.

A monkey putting money into any commercial real estate project at the time would've made plenty of money.

An ape did just that.

 

[Trausti]

The other dangerous side of this coin is that, like we see with Trump, wealthy people get a pass for doing things that others can not, and often, at least on the right, their motives are assumed to be "pure" from the beginning.

Case in point, how the fuck did that asshole ever become wealthy ? He is the epitome of a bullshit merchant but he seems be taken seriously by people that should know better. He's fine as a game show presenter but a business man, a captain of industry ? The guy is a fucking moron. I suppose he got his start from his wealthy father and that gave him a leg up.

He got lucky by investing in some major commercial real estate projects in Manhattan in the late 70's/early 80's, right before a significant real estate price boom in that market.

A monkey putting money into any commercial real estate project at the time would've made plenty of money.

Surely many other people did the same thing and made bank. But why do we only know of Donald Trump? Could you name another real estate developer without searching the internet?

 

[BH]

I have a question. My degree is in history and political science. I did some grad work in history and also in education. I taught school a little while and then got back into business.

I understand my history degree wouldn't help that much but I have found lots of places will not hire me not because it is the wrong degree, but because it is a degree. Have been told it makes me overqualified. Why is this?

I am in good shape and have a good job right now and am happy. But I do not understand why the degree should hurt someone.

AFAICT "overqualified" means you're unlikely to stay around.

I always thought it meant they were scared you would figure out how to do the business on your own and go start another store or restaraunt and compete with them. They didn't want to train their competition.

That's another reason why I think wages are kept so low. If people make too much they might be able to save. People who save pool money and start businesses together to try to make life even better than themselves. It may start off as a portable corn dog or hot dog stand but then it could grow into other things. Then the person who used to work for someone else is cutting into that someone's profits. I've had a retired contractor in the family admit such. He would pay enough for his worker to afford rent buy food and clothe themselves but not enough to really be able to save much. He didn't want them to be able to go out and buy tools, ect and start their own building firms.

 

[Axulus]

He got lucky by investing in some major commercial real estate projects in Manhattan in the late 70's/early 80's, right before a significant real estate price boom in that market.

A monkey putting money into any commercial real estate project at the time would've made plenty of money.

Surely many other people did the same thing and made bank. But why do we only know of Donald Trump? Could you name another real estate developer without searching the internet?

Trump got a head start with daddy's money and real estate development connections and was extremely aggressive with use of debt. Leverage works well when asset prices are rising. Trump benefited greatly from the NYC 80's real estate boom. Since the early 90's, he's basically made no money (and may have even lost some). He would've done far better just putting his money in an index fund since then.

We know about him so well because of his obsessive and narcissistic need to market himself (self promotion).