Pit Bulls!

[Jolly_Penguin]

I don't recall us having a thread on this topic before. Where do you all stand on the idea of Pitbull Bans?

Here is an article I was reading that prompted me to ask you:

https://www.thecut.com/2017/03/how-both-sides-of-the-pit-bull-debate-get-it-wrong.html

 

[Elixir]

I don't recall us having a thread on this topic before. Where do you all stand on the idea of Pitbull Bans?

Here is an article I was reading that prompted me to ask you:

https://www.thecut.com/2017/03/how-both-sides-of-the-pit-bull-debate-get-it-wrong.html

I love them - really want a pit pup. The ones I've known are sweet gentle animals. My niece has had a pitbull "nanny dog" since she was born. God help anyone who approaches her with ill intent, to this day.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

My neighbours have a pair or pitbulls and they are friendly dogs, but my experience with the breed is admittedly limited.

 

[beero1000]

I don't recall us having a thread on this topic before. Where do you all stand on the idea of Pitbull Bans?

Here is an article I was reading that prompted me to ask you:

https://www.thecut.com/2017/03/how-both-sides-of-the-pit-bull-debate-get-it-wrong.html

I think breed specific bans are stupid and classification of 'dangerous breeds' is mostly self-fulfilling. They are large, strong, dogs and need to be treated/trained as such, but so are many other kinds of dog. Every pit mix I've ever met was an absolute sweetheart.

 

[Elixir]

I don't recall us having a thread on this topic before. Where do you all stand on the idea of Pitbull Bans?

Here is an article I was reading that prompted me to ask you:

https://www.thecut.com/2017/03/how-both-sides-of-the-pit-bull-debate-get-it-wrong.html

I think breed specific bans are stupid and classification of 'dangerous breeds' is mostly self-fulfilling. They are large, strong, dogs and need to be treated/trained as such, but so are many other kinds of dog. Every pit mix I've ever met was an absolute sweetheart.

Ditto. And almost every Chihuahua I ever met was a holy terror. They scare me a lot more than pit bull terriers.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A link to an article about pit bulls, but nothing about statistics?

In general, almost all dogs don't kill people. But of the dogs that do, they are, in super-majority, pit bulls. Rottweilers and German Shepards take it to 90+%. I've only been attacked twice, by German Shepards, as a kid. A friend of mine back in the day had a sister that was seriously mauled while babysitting a kid in a house with a pit bull.

I've learned in my anecdotal world that animals often behave in a manner based on how well they are or aren't loved. But then there is also the issue of facial ticks or whatever, that could set a dog off.

So you want a pit bull... the liability is yours. And there should be liability insurance involved, directly related to how well animal control knows your dog (ie, they don't know, low premiums / they are very well versed in your dogs existence, high premiums.) Granted, asshole pet owners will likely not pay for the insurance, so that probably won't help. So maybe just grind asshole pet owners into rendered mulch.

 

[dismal]

A link to an article about pit bulls, but nothing about statistics?

So, looks like pit bulls are worse than mass school shootings.

 

[beero1000]

A link to an article about pit bulls, but nothing about statistics?

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Propaganda from a site with tagline "Dogs bite. Some dogs don't let go." that was founded by a random woman who was bitten while jogging.

How about the American Veterinary Medical Association instead?

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/L...of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx

PIT BULL TYPES

Owners of pit bull-type dogs deal with a strong breed stigma, however controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous. The pit bull type is particularly ambiguous as a “breed” encompassing a range of pedigree breeds, informal types and appearances that cannot be reliably identified. Visual determination of dog breed is known to not always be reliable and witnesses may be predisposed to assume that a vicious dog is of this type. It should also be considered that the incidence of pit bull-type dogs’ involvement in severe and fatal attacks may represent high prevalence in neighborhoods that present high risk to the young children who are the most common victim of severe or fatal attacks. And as owners of stigmatized breeds are more likely to have involvement in criminal and/or violent acts—breed correlations may have the owner’s behavior as the underlying causal factor.

BREED BANS

Most serious dog bite injuries (requiring hospital treatment) in the United States are the victim being a young child and the dog being un-neutered and familiar (belonging to the family, a family friend or neighbor). Therefore responsible ownership and supervision is key to minimizing the risk of dog bites in communities. While some study authors suggest limiting ownership of specific breeds might reduce injuries (e.g., pit bull type, German Shepherd Dog) it has not been demonstrated that introducing a breed specific ban will reduce the rate or severity of bite injuries occurring in the community. Strategies known to result in decreased bite incidents include active enforcement of dog control ordinances, and these may include ordinances relating to breed.

CONCLUSION

Maulings by dogs can cause terrible injuries and death—and it is natural for those dealing with the victims to seek to address the immediate causes. However as Duffy et al (2008) wrote of their survey based data: “The substantial within-breed variation…suggests that it is inappropriate to make predictions about a given dog’s propensity for aggressive behavior based solely on its breed.” While breed is a factor, the impact of other factors relating to the individual animal (such as training method, sex and neutering status), the target (e.g. owner versus stranger), and the context in which the dog is kept (e.g. urban versus rural) prevent breed from having significant predictive value in its own right. Also the nature of a breed has been shown to vary across time, geographically, and according to breed subtypes such as those raised for conformation showing versus field trials.

Given that breed is a poor sole predictor of aggressiveness and pit bull-type dogs are not implicated in controlled studies it is difficult to support the targeting of this breed as a basis for dog bite prevention. If breeds are to be targeted a cluster of large breeds would be implicated including the German shepherd and shepherd crosses and other breeds that vary by location.

 

[Elixir]

...
So you want a pit bull... the liability is yours.

Yeah, and that goes double for your chihuahua! Of course the insurance ceiling can be a lot lower, since if you are attacked by both a chi and a pit, you are FAR more likely to die from what the pit does to you. Actuarially speaking though, you are far more likely to be bitten by the chi.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

...
So you want a pit bull... the liability is yours.

Yeah, and that goes double for your chihuahua! Of course the insurance ceiling can be a lot lower, since if you are attacked by both a chi and a pit, you are FAR more likely to die from what the pit does to you. Actuarially speaking though, you are far more likely to be bitten by the chi.

Does this also apply to human children under the age of 18?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A link to an article about pit bulls, but nothing about statistics?

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Propaganda from a site with tagline "Dogs bite. Some dogs don't let go." that was founded by a random woman who was bitten while jogging.

Should I have just stopped my post there?

- - - Updated - - -

...
So you want a pit bull... the liability is yours.

Yeah, and that goes double for your chihuahua! Of course the insurance ceiling can be a lot lower, since if you are attacked by both a chi and a pit, you are FAR more likely to die from what the pit does to you. Actuarially speaking though, you are far more likely to be bitten by the chi.

Of course, that won't amount to too much.

 

[beero1000]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Propaganda from a site with tagline "Dogs bite. Some dogs don't let go." that was founded by a random woman who was bitten while jogging.

Should I have just stopped my post there?

You should stop spreading propaganda, yes. The rest of your post was premised on your interpretation of those incorrect 'statistics'.

Should I have stopped MY post there? You know, before I quoted the peer-reviewed summary of the scientific literature on dog bite risk? The one that shows that 'pit bulls' are not identified as disproportionately dangerous?

 

[Toni]

A link to an article about pit bulls, but nothing about statistics?

In general, almost all dogs don't kill people. But of the dogs that do, they are, in super-majority, pit bulls. Rottweilers and German Shepards take it to 90+%. I've only been attacked twice, by German Shepards, as a kid. A friend of mine back in the day had a sister that was seriously mauled while babysitting a kid in a house with a pit bull.

I've learned in my anecdotal world that animals often behave in a manner based on how well they are or aren't loved. But then there is also the issue of facial ticks or whatever, that could set a dog off.

So you want a pit bull... the liability is yours. And there should be liability insurance involved, directly related to how well animal control knows your dog (ie, they don't know, low premiums / they are very well versed in your dogs existence, high premiums.) Granted, asshole pet owners will likely not pay for the insurance, so that probably won't help. So maybe just grind asshole pet owners into rendered mulch.

It isn't just a matter of how a dog is raised although that is a huge factor. Dogs inherit temperament and behavior traits. Specific breeds are, in fact, developed for such traits to make the most (or worst, depending on your POV) of whatever instinct is desired for a specific purpose. My dad raised bird dogs. It was stunning to me to see how early their instinct for pointing at birds or 'birds' came--at 2 months, one of his was pointing butterflies, on a firm, committed point, tail straight as a rod. Some dog breeds were developed to herd animals, to retrieve, to go after vermin, to fight bears, to guard, and unfortunately, also to attack. Unfortunately, some people actively select the most aggressive examples of pitties to breed and then raise them to make the aggression even more severe. This should be banned.

Unfortunately, too many people do not breed dogs for health or to get their best traits. Even more unfortunately, some breeds are sometimes bred specifically to develop what most of us would consider negative traits, mostly aggression/fighting. Unfortunately, pit bulls have been the victims of this kind of mindset. Of the limited number of pitbulls I have known, they have been sweet dogs, but one was aggressive enough that I would have been quite startled if I had not been forewarned that he initially would lunge at visitors when they first came in through the door. I was prepared and any bad incident was avoided. He was aggressive enough that his owner was booted from 2 separate apartments, once because the mail carrier had refused to deliver to the building after her 'gentle, sweet (crazy aggressive uncontrolled lunatic)' dog went after the mail carrier as he walked up the walk to the apartment building. She at first declared it to be unfair and then promised! she was working with him and that he had been rescued from a bad environment. But she'd had him for more than 3 years at that point and he was still what I considered quite unreliable. I would not have wanted a small child near him and my understanding is that her siblings absolutely refused to allow her to have her dog off leash or near their children at family gatherings. The dog knocked one pregnant sister in law to the ground, for example. Everyone was ok but that particular dog owner was not realistic about her dog's temperament or her ability to train or control him. This could easily have been any other breed of dog. For instance, the most insane dog I knew was a boxer, who unfortunately was quite insane and busted through doors to get at passersby. I once witnessed a police officer who was clueless and helpless to get the dog away from an elderly woman the dog was threatening for having the nerve to walk down the sidewalk. Fortunately, the owner was able to call the dog off, but the dog was crazy. The owner was even crazier as he was certain his dog was 'misunderstood.' Frankly, his dog is what drove our decision to move. Warm weather was coming and I would never have been able to allow my kids to play in their yard or even walk to and from school unaccompanied by an adult ready to defend them against an attack.

I've known some vicious chihuahuas but am currently step grandparent to two very sweet ones who don't even yap. I've had dogs almost all of my life. None smaller than a beagle and the largest was over 100 lbs of pure love and cuddles but who would not allow anyone to hurt one of 'his' people. He didn't attack or bite but he stood between his person and the perceived threat and would not back down unless called off. That was instinct, not training. Once he knew that everyone was ok, he was back to all love and cuddles.

I don't believe in breed bans but I do think some people should be banned from owning dogs and some should never be allowed to select anything more vicious than a daisy to breed and raise.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I made a typo in the OP. I didn't mean to ask about Pitbul Bans. I meant to ask about Pitbull Bands.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrocEmhLsJk&list=RDOrocEmhLsJk&t=15[/youtube]

2 of the band members are pitbulls.

 

[Elixir]

Actuarially speaking though, you are far more likely to be bitten by the chi.

Of course, that won't amount to too much.

Probably no more than say, spilling coffee on yourself.

"In 1992, 79-year-old Stella Liebeck bought a cup of takeout coffee at a McDonald's drive-thru in Albuquerque and spilled it on her lap. She sued McDonald's and a jury awarded her nearly $3 million in punitive damages for the burns she suffered."

 

[ronburgundy]

More generally, the law should treat dog owners as though they personally committed any actions that their dog does. . A dog owner bites someone, then the owner should go to prison for assault. If it kills someone, then the owner goes to prison for murder. A dob bites the owner's child, the owner is convicted of child abuse.
"Provocation" arguments should be treated the same as if the same "provocation" of a person would justify them shooting the provoker, etc.. If local laws forbid shooting trespassers, then a dog who bites a trespasser should result in the owner being sentenced as if they attacked the trespasser.

 

[dismal]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Propaganda from a site with tagline "Dogs bite. Some dogs don't let go." that was founded by a random woman who was bitten while jogging.

Should I have just stopped my post there?

You should stop spreading propaganda, yes. The rest of your post was premised on your interpretation of those incorrect 'statistics'.

Should I have stopped MY post there? You know, before I quoted the peer-reviewed summary of the scientific literature on dog bite risk? The one that shows that 'pit bulls' are not identified as disproportionately dangerous?

What exactly are you asserting is incorrect about the statistics? I checked wikipedias list of dog attack fatalities and they also seem to document 25 or so pit bull fatalities per year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

 

[beero1000]

You should stop spreading propaganda, yes. The rest of your post was premised on your interpretation of those incorrect 'statistics'.

Should I have stopped MY post there? You know, before I quoted the peer-reviewed summary of the scientific literature on dog bite risk? The one that shows that 'pit bulls' are not identified as disproportionately dangerous?

What exactly are you asserting is incorrect about the statistics? I checked wikipedias list of dog attack fatalities and they also seem to document 25 or so pit bull fatalities per year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

You mean besides what's in the AVMA summary of the peer-reviewed literature that I linked to and quoted in Post #8?

 

[bilby]

Pit bulls are a terrible idea. The ponies are smaller, less powerful, and don't have horns which could get caught in the props and shoring, leading to a cave-in. Most bulls are too large to fit in the cage, so they would need to be brought in as calves, and live underground their entire lives (while most ponies also spent their entire lives below ground, they did fit inside the cages, so the infirm, injured or dead could be removed. A bull would need to be butchered underground, and brought out in pieces).

So definitely a bad idea. Is this part of Trump's plan to bring jobs to the Appalachians?

 

[dismal]

You should stop spreading propaganda, yes. The rest of your post was premised on your interpretation of those incorrect 'statistics'.

Should I have stopped MY post there? You know, before I quoted the peer-reviewed summary of the scientific literature on dog bite risk? The one that shows that 'pit bulls' are not identified as disproportionately dangerous?

What exactly are you asserting is incorrect about the statistics? I checked wikipedias list of dog attack fatalities and they also seem to document 25 or so pit bull fatalities per year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

You mean besides what's in the AVMA summary of the peer-reviewed literature that I linked to and quoted in Post #8?

Can you point to the exact part that says pit bulls do not kill people?

Because the parts you quoted do not say that.