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Making genital mutilation illegal and means of enforcement.

Whatever slight difference circumcision makes in HIV transmission rates in Africa is not apparent in developed Western nations. And even if there was a measurable difference in transmission rates here in the US as well, that's something that only applies to sexually active people, not to infants.

As I said, a condom is a far better answer.

If it's going to be done, best done in infancy, though.

I disagree that it's best done in infancy. Infants can't express their desire to either keep their foreskin or have it removed. IMO, barring a genuine need to alleviate suffering or treat an existing medical condition, its best to wait until the kid can decide for himself.

It's his body. It should be his choice.

I’ve mentioned before that I know a young man, since he was quite young who was born with an extra digit on each hand. I also mentioned a coworker whose child was born with an extra digit on each hand. In both cases, the parents had the extra digits removed when each child was a very young baby. Both individuals had fully functional hands before and after the surgery, although in each case, pediatricians raised some potential complications if the extra digits were left in place.

Should the parents have left the extra digits in place?

FWIW, two of my kids really needed braces to correct their bites. As you may know, braces take months to years of treatments, sometimes involve removing teeth(one of my kids), and is somewhat painful. One of my kids accepted braces and didn’t complain. The other objected vehemently. The one who objected began treatment at about 10 years of age. In both cases, the orthodontist felt that the early treatment would result in the best final result and the best dental health overall. We’re we wrong to go ahead with the orthodontia during their childhood or should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves? Does it matter that one child really hated braces? OK they both did but one complained A LOT.

We’re we wrong to make this medical decision while they were children? Should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves, knowing that their adult teeth would have emerged in too tight a space and treatment would be longer, more expensive, and less effective—but it would be their choice?
 
I disagree that it's best done in infancy. Infants can't express their desire to either keep their foreskin or have it removed. IMO, barring a genuine need to alleviate suffering or treat an existing medical condition, its best to wait until the kid can decide for himself.

It's his body. It should be his choice.

I’ve mentioned before that I know a young man, since he was quite young who was born with an extra digit on each hand. I also mentioned a coworker whose child was born with an extra digit on each hand. In both cases, the parents had the extra digits removed when each child was a very young baby. Both individuals had fully functional hands before and after the surgery, although in each case, pediatricians raised some potential complications if the extra digits were left in place.

Should the parents have left the extra digits in place?

I think so. If the extra digits weren't causing pain, weren't imperiling life or health, and weren't impeding the functionality of the kids' hands, then I think it would have been best to leave well enough alone until the kids were old enough to give informed consent.

FWIW, two of my kids really needed braces to correct their bites. As you may know, braces take months to years of treatments, sometimes involve removing teeth(one of my kids), and is somewhat painful. One of my kids accepted braces and didn’t complain. The other objected vehemently. The one who objected began treatment at about 10 years of age. In both cases, the orthodontist felt that the early treatment would result in the best final result and the best dental health overall. We’re we wrong to go ahead with the orthodontia during their childhood or should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves? Does it matter that one child really hated braces? OK they both did but one complained A LOT.

We’re we wrong to make this medical decision while they were children? Should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves, knowing that their adult teeth would have emerged in too tight a space and treatment would be longer, more expensive, and less effective—but it would be their choice?

My sister had orthodontic work done when she was in her early teens. She had an overbite so pronounced it affected her ability to bite and chew. Her oral surgery involved the removal of teeth and immobilizing her jaw for about 2 weeks, and then braces for about a year. She was old enough to understand the procedure and consent to it.

I don't think it would have been better to impose it on her while she was too young to understand why the doctor made her mouth hurt so much, even if she would have healed faster.


ETA: When she was very young she underwent eye surgery to treat strabismus that was causing lazy eye amblyopia. She was very fearful of doctors for quite a while afterwards. I'm not entirely sure she's over it. But that was a situation where parents and doctors can't wait for the patient to grow up before treating the condition. My sister was losing vision in one eye because her brain was only utilizing the other one. If the strabismus had been left untreated, she most likely would have lost vision in the affected eye entirely.
 
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I think so. If the extra digits weren't causing pain, weren't imperiling life or health, and weren't impeding the functionality of the kids' hands, then I think it would have been best to leave well enough alone until the kids were old enough to give informed consent.

FWIW, two of my kids really needed braces to correct their bites. As you may know, braces take months to years of treatments, sometimes involve removing teeth(one of my kids), and is somewhat painful. One of my kids accepted braces and didn’t complain. The other objected vehemently. The one who objected began treatment at about 10 years of age. In both cases, the orthodontist felt that the early treatment would result in the best final result and the best dental health overall. We’re we wrong to go ahead with the orthodontia during their childhood or should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves? Does it matter that one child really hated braces? OK they both did but one complained A LOT.

We’re we wrong to make this medical decision while they were children? Should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves, knowing that their adult teeth would have emerged in too tight a space and treatment would be longer, more expensive, and less effective—but it would be their choice?

My sister had orthodontic work done when she was in her early teens. She had an overbite so pronounced it affected her ability to bite and chew. Her oral surgery involved the removal of teeth and immobilizing her jaw for about 2 weeks, and then braces for about a year. She was old enough to understand the procedure and consent to it.

I don't think it would have been better to impose it on her while she was too young to understand why the doctor made her mouth hurt so much, even if she would have healed faster.


ETA: When she was very young she underwent eye surgery to treat strabismus that was causing lazy eye amblyopia. She was very fearful of doctors for quite a while afterwards. I'm not entirely sure she's over it. But that was a situation where parents and doctors can't wait for the patient to grow up before treating the condition. My sister was losing vision in one eye because her brain was only utilizing the other one. If the strabismus had been left untreated, she most likely would have lost vision in the affected eye entirely.

In the case of the children with the extra digits: probably the driving force behind each set of parents' decisions was how it would affect their child growing up, if they would be treated as defective or weird or deformed by other children. The young man I mentioned DID feel weird knowing that he had been born with extra digits. When he talked about it, he was on the cusp of adolescence and some days would say he wished he had the lost fingers and other days he was glad they were gone. The thing is, he is the youngest of his siblings. I'm pretty sure he only knows about the extra digits because one of his sisters told him. You know how lovely siblings can be. Oh, he also had an extra nipple which was left alone. I have no idea what, if anything he did as an adult about that issue or if it was ever an issue for him.

FWIW, I think the parents made the correct decision for their children. They eliminated one area where their children might have been made to feel quite bad about something that was not their fault. The medical risk was minimal; the extra digits provided no benefit.

For my own children's orthodontia: it wasn't a case of them healing better/faster by having orthodontia when they were younger vs. when they were in their teens. It was a case of the treatment itself being less invasive and much more effective because teeth could be properly aligned when adult teeth emerged, rather than risk having to correct the alignment of more teeth when they were older. The child who had to have teeth pulled: the mouth was quite crowded and small on the inside. The orthodontist actually delayed his orthodontia to see how the mouth and teeth grew and matured in order to do the least amount of invasive work. His younger sibling had no crowding but a significant overbite that was growing worse and worse--I was a bit shocked when they started that child on orthodontia first. No teeth needed to be pulled but treatment began before the older sibling's treatment and lasted longer by some months. THAT was the kid who objected to the procedure. FWIW, one of the potential benefits was avoiding not just future dental issues but also debilitating headaches that can be caused by dental issues. For both my kids, waiting until their teen years would have resulted in much more extensive work that lasted much longer and would have given not such good results.

My sister had the same kind of eye issue, although not as severe. My parents could not face the idea of their young daughter having eye surgery (and I am sure it would have been a financial hardship as well). My sister always felt extremely self conscious about it. I am not sure if it contributed to some of her shyness or whether she felt more self conscious because she was shy. She still mightily resents our parents for not having fixed it when she was a kid.

And FWIW, I'm pretty sure that my kid who resented orthodontia so much would have been even more upset if we had not had it taken care of when she was young, and especially before dating years came around.

When my kids were very young, one of the older boys in the neighborhood was born with a form of cerebral palsy and had lower legs which were twisted out of their sockets while he was in utero. His mother elected to have a series of surgeries performed in order to give him the best possible mobility but as he approached his teens she decided at that point, if there were to be more surgeries, he would have to decide whether it was worth it or not.

It's not always easy to decide what treatments are necessary, what are advisable and what to skip.
 
I think so. If the extra digits weren't causing pain, weren't imperiling life or health, and weren't impeding the functionality of the kids' hands, then I think it would have been best to leave well enough alone until the kids were old enough to give informed consent.

FWIW, two of my kids really needed braces to correct their bites. As you may know, braces take months to years of treatments, sometimes involve removing teeth(one of my kids), and is somewhat painful. One of my kids accepted braces and didn’t complain. The other objected vehemently. The one who objected began treatment at about 10 years of age. In both cases, the orthodontist felt that the early treatment would result in the best final result and the best dental health overall. We’re we wrong to go ahead with the orthodontia during their childhood or should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves? Does it matter that one child really hated braces? OK they both did but one complained A LOT.

We’re we wrong to make this medical decision while they were children? Should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves, knowing that their adult teeth would have emerged in too tight a space and treatment would be longer, more expensive, and less effective—but it would be their choice?

My sister had orthodontic work done when she was in her early teens. She had an overbite so pronounced it affected her ability to bite and chew. Her oral surgery involved the removal of teeth and immobilizing her jaw for about 2 weeks, and then braces for about a year. She was old enough to understand the procedure and consent to it.

I don't think it would have been better to impose it on her while she was too young to understand why the doctor made her mouth hurt so much, even if she would have healed faster.


ETA: When she was very young she underwent eye surgery to treat strabismus that was causing lazy eye amblyopia. She was very fearful of doctors for quite a while afterwards. I'm not entirely sure she's over it. But that was a situation where parents and doctors can't wait for the patient to grow up before treating the condition. My sister was losing vision in one eye because her brain was only utilizing the other one. If the strabismus had been left untreated, she most likely would have lost vision in the affected eye entirely.

In the case of the children with the extra digits: probably the driving force behind each set of parents' decisions was how it would affect their child growing up, if they would be treated as defective or weird or deformed by other children. The young man I mentioned DID feel weird knowing that he had been born with extra digits. When he talked about it, he was on the cusp of adolescence and some days would say he wished he had the lost fingers and other days he was glad they were gone. The thing is, he is the youngest of his siblings. I'm pretty sure he only knows about the extra digits because one of his sisters told him. You know how lovely siblings can be. Oh, he also had an extra nipple which was left alone. I have no idea what, if anything he did as an adult about that issue or if it was ever an issue for him.

FWIW, I think the parents made the correct decision for their children. They eliminated one area where their children might have been made to feel quite bad about something that was not their fault. The medical risk was minimal; the extra digits provided no benefit.

For my own children's orthodontia: it wasn't a case of them healing better/faster by having orthodontia when they were younger vs. when they were in their teens. It was a case of the treatment itself being less invasive and much more effective because teeth could be properly aligned when adult teeth emerged, rather than risk having to correct the alignment of more teeth when they were older. The child who had to have teeth pulled: the mouth was quite crowded and small on the inside. The orthodontist actually delayed his orthodontia to see how the mouth and teeth grew and matured in order to do the least amount of invasive work. His younger sibling had no crowding but a significant overbite that was growing worse and worse--I was a bit shocked when they started that child on orthodontia first. No teeth needed to be pulled but treatment began before the older sibling's treatment and lasted longer by some months. THAT was the kid who objected to the procedure. FWIW, one of the potential benefits was avoiding not just future dental issues but also debilitating headaches that can be caused by dental issues. For both my kids, waiting until their teen years would have resulted in much more extensive work that lasted much longer and would have given not such good results.

My sister had the same kind of eye issue, although not as severe. My parents could not face the idea of their young daughter having eye surgery (and I am sure it would have been a financial hardship as well). My sister always felt extremely self conscious about it. I am not sure if it contributed to some of her shyness or whether she felt more self conscious because she was shy. She still mightily resents our parents for not having fixed it when she was a kid.

And FWIW, I'm pretty sure that my kid who resented orthodontia so much would have been even more upset if we had not had it taken care of when she was young, and especially before dating years came around.

When my kids were very young, one of the older boys in the neighborhood was born with a form of cerebral palsy and had lower legs which were twisted out of their sockets while he was in utero. His mother elected to have a series of surgeries performed in order to give him the best possible mobility but as he approached his teens she decided at that point, if there were to be more surgeries, he would have to decide whether it was worth it or not.

It's not always easy to decide what treatments are necessary, what are advisable and what to skip.

"It's not always easy to decide what treatments are necessary, what are advisable and what to skip."

I agree. I'm pretty sure everyone who's been posting in this thread agrees. But it can be easy to determine when a treatment or a surgery isn't necessary.

Circumcision isn't necessary if a person has no disease or dysfunction that circumcision might treat or cure. If it isn't necessary then IMO it shouldn't be done to anyone without their consent. That's really the bottom line.

Routine infant circumcision isn't done out of necessity. It's done for cultural reasons, and cultures can change. Our culture changed when it accepted routine infant circumcision in the 20th century and it's changing again to reject it in the 21st.
 
For both male and female, if it's only done for cultural or religious reasons, the people responsible for it should charged to the full extent of the laws that exist already in most Western Democracies!
 
I disagree that it's best done in infancy. Infants can't express their desire to either keep their foreskin or have it removed. IMO, barring a genuine need to alleviate suffering or treat an existing medical condition, its best to wait until the kid can decide for himself.

It's his body. It should be his choice.

I’ve mentioned before that I know a young man, since he was quite young who was born with an extra digit on each hand. I also mentioned a coworker whose child was born with an extra digit on each hand. In both cases, the parents had the extra digits removed when each child was a very young baby. Both individuals had fully functional hands before and after the surgery, although in each case, pediatricians raised some potential complications if the extra digits were left in place.

So we should only circumcise boys who have an extra penis?

We’re we wrong to make this medical decision while they were children? Should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves, knowing that their adult teeth would have emerged in too tight a space and treatment would be longer, more expensive, and less effective—but it would be their choice?

Some procedures have a necessity. I would never object if a kid needed an appendectomy and the parents signed for it without consulting the kid.
 
So we should only circumcise boys who have an extra penis?

We’re we wrong to make this medical decision while they were children? Should we have waited until they were adults and let them decide for themselves, knowing that their adult teeth would have emerged in too tight a space and treatment would be longer, more expensive, and less effective—but it would be their choice?

Some procedures have a necessity. I would never object if a kid needed an appendectomy and the parents signed for it without consulting the kid.

My question was about medical decisions parents are called to make about many things, including removing extra digits, braces, etc. Typically children can function well from a physical standpoint without surgical removal of extra digits or without orthodontia. Arctish advocates for waiting until kids are old enough to make informed decisions. I don’t advocate for waiting under the circumstances I outlined above. Interventions can be riskier and more involved and less effective if delayed. In the case of male circumcision, there are medical benefits. I have zero problem with parents deciding the benefits are not sufficient reason to circumcise. I have zero problem with parents who decide benefits are sufficient.
 
We've established what the medical benefit is - it reduces the likelihood of catching HIV when having unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute. If someone grows up and says "gee, I want to have unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute" then yes, it is good.

I think circumcising an infant boy because it is possible he may grow up to someday have unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute is absurd.

Now comparing it to orthodontia. There at least is a valid medical basis for that even if it isn't absolutely necessary. It isn't like it is useful only in a very unusual circumstance.
 
We've established what the medical benefit is - it reduces the likelihood of catching HIV when having unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute. If someone grows up and says "gee, I want to have unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute" then yes, it is good.

I think circumcising an infant boy because it is possible he may grow up to someday have unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute is absurd.

Now comparing it to orthodontia. There at least is a valid medical basis for that even if it isn't absolutely necessary. It isn't like it is useful only in a very unusual circumstance.

That is not the only potential health benefit, nor the only benefit mentioned in this thread.
 
Oh yes, the cleanliness issue. Did you know if we chop off our hands we no longer have to wash our hands!

You are utterly and completely mistaken about the circumstances under which data demonstrates effective HIV prevention or any other health benefit. If you were too lazy to read it before, there is no reason for me to waste my time directing you towards actual information rather than your personal opinion and misremembered cultural biases.
 
We've established what the medical benefit is - it reduces the likelihood of catching HIV when having unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute. If someone grows up and says "gee, I want to have unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute" then yes, it is good.

I think circumcising an infant boy because it is possible he may grow up to someday have unprotected dry sex with an HIV positive prostitute is absurd.

Now comparing it to orthodontia. There at least is a valid medical basis for that even if it isn't absolutely necessary. It isn't like it is useful only in a very unusual circumstance.

1) Replace "prostitute" with "woman". It's not just prostitutes.

2) Most men want to have sex with a woman. HIV is a possibility.

Now, I'm not saying this is a reason for it as condoms are a better protection than circumcision.
 
It's not just "sex with a woman", it is the practice of dry sex that some African prostitutes engage in. That is a specific act that specific people engage in.

So you believe that’s the only circumstance under which men and women have sex with each other in Africa? It’s not the only circumstance that circumcision process some protection against HIV for the circumcised men. In fact that wasn’t even mentioned in any of the studies I’ve read.
 
I think so. If the extra digits weren't causing pain, weren't imperiling life or health, and weren't impeding the functionality of the kids' hands, then I think it would have been best to leave well enough alone until the kids were old enough to give informed consent.

If the extra digit(s) work they are left alone. Example:

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2008/04/six-fingered-man-barred-from-guitar-hero-tournament.html

The docs remove the ones that don't work.

Hey, Loren, I only know what the one kid told me and I know what my co-worker told me. I did not conduct a medical exam to determine the functionality of the digits, which would have been problematic on a newborn anyway.

YES extra digits can be left, especially if they are functional. NO they are not always left.

YES it is the choice of the parents in conjunction with good medical advice. I don't know where the kid was born and treated but I am very familiar with the medical practice where my co-worker delivered her child. It has a stellar world wide reputation for excellence in medical care.

YES it was my choice and my husband's to have our children undergo orthodontia. Yes, it was my parent's choice not to have my sister have eye surgery. Yes it was my parents choice NOT to have orthodontia for me. YES it was my husbands' parents choice to have orthodontia for him. Yes, it was my other co-worker's parents choice to explore all possible treatments and enhancements for her hearing impairment and to have cochlear implants and other interventions. Not all deaf and hard of hearing people approve of this choice--it can be quite political but my coworker was grateful that her parents took the actions they took.

Parents routinely make some serious medical decisions for their young children. Some of those decisions are made when children are quite young or in infancy because that is when the best outcomes can be achieved. I don't know of anyone who has made such decisions lightly.
 
I think so. If the extra digits weren't causing pain, weren't imperiling life or health, and weren't impeding the functionality of the kids' hands, then I think it would have been best to leave well enough alone until the kids were old enough to give informed consent.

If the extra digit(s) work they are left alone. Example:

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2008/04/six-fingered-man-barred-from-guitar-hero-tournament.html

The docs remove the ones that don't work.

Hey, Loren, I only know what the one kid told me and I know what my co-worker told me. I did not conduct a medical exam to determine the functionality of the digits, which would have been problematic on a newborn anyway.

YES extra digits can be left, especially if they are functional. NO they are not always left.

YES it is the choice of the parents in conjunction with good medical advice. I don't know where the kid was born and treated but I am very familiar with the medical practice where my co-worker delivered her child. It has a stellar world wide reputation for excellence in medical care.

YES it was my choice and my husband's to have our children undergo orthodontia. Yes, it was my parent's choice not to have my sister have eye surgery. Yes it was my parents choice NOT to have orthodontia for me. YES it was my husbands' parents choice to have orthodontia for him. Yes, it was my other co-worker's parents choice to explore all possible treatments and enhancements for her hearing impairment and to have cochlear implants and other interventions. Not all deaf and hard of hearing people approve of this choice--it can be quite political but my coworker was grateful that her parents took the actions they took.

Parents routinely make some serious medical decisions for their young children. Some of those decisions are made when children are quite young or in infancy because that is when the best outcomes can be achieved. I don't know of anyone who has made such decisions lightly.

Ah, someone who just can't process the decision between a medical procedure to alleviate an ongoing harmful condition, and cosmetic surgery.

She might as well be arguing that parents be allowed to tattoo and Pierce babies, but she just can't see it.
 
Hey, Loren, I only know what the one kid told me and I know what my co-worker told me. I did not conduct a medical exam to determine the functionality of the digits, which would have been problematic on a newborn anyway.

YES extra digits can be left, especially if they are functional. NO they are not always left.

YES it is the choice of the parents in conjunction with good medical advice. I don't know where the kid was born and treated but I am very familiar with the medical practice where my co-worker delivered her child. It has a stellar world wide reputation for excellence in medical care.

YES it was my choice and my husband's to have our children undergo orthodontia. Yes, it was my parent's choice not to have my sister have eye surgery. Yes it was my parents choice NOT to have orthodontia for me. YES it was my husbands' parents choice to have orthodontia for him. Yes, it was my other co-worker's parents choice to explore all possible treatments and enhancements for her hearing impairment and to have cochlear implants and other interventions. Not all deaf and hard of hearing people approve of this choice--it can be quite political but my coworker was grateful that her parents took the actions they took.

Parents routinely make some serious medical decisions for their young children. Some of those decisions are made when children are quite young or in infancy because that is when the best outcomes can be achieved. I don't know of anyone who has made such decisions lightly.

Ah, someone who just can't process the decision between a medical procedure to alleviate an ongoing harmful condition, and cosmetic surgery.

She might as well be arguing that parents be allowed to tattoo and Pierce babies, but she just can't see it.

None of the examples I listed were cosmetic but were either performed to alleviate an immediate medical/ functional concern or to prevent a more serious medical concern later.
It’s pretty unfortunate that my parents elected to not have surgery for my sister. She endured a lot of time with an eye patch to correct the lazy eye and when that had limited utlity, she spent the remainder of her childhood through young adulthood extremely self conscious and wearing strong corrective lenses which seriously affected her self-perception and confidence, the effects of which are still obvious decades later.

In my experience, parents make the best decisions that they can for their kids, taking into consideration medical advise and sometimes limited by finances or by fears of the ‘what if???’ They are not always the decisions that I would make but I learned a long time ago that I do not know everything and that the future cannot be predicted with complete certainty.
 
Hey, Loren, I only know what the one kid told me and I know what my co-worker told me. I did not conduct a medical exam to determine the functionality of the digits, which would have been problematic on a newborn anyway.

YES extra digits can be left, especially if they are functional. NO they are not always left.

YES it is the choice of the parents in conjunction with good medical advice. I don't know where the kid was born and treated but I am very familiar with the medical practice where my co-worker delivered her child. It has a stellar world wide reputation for excellence in medical care.

YES it was my choice and my husband's to have our children undergo orthodontia. Yes, it was my parent's choice not to have my sister have eye surgery. Yes it was my parents choice NOT to have orthodontia for me. YES it was my husbands' parents choice to have orthodontia for him. Yes, it was my other co-worker's parents choice to explore all possible treatments and enhancements for her hearing impairment and to have cochlear implants and other interventions. Not all deaf and hard of hearing people approve of this choice--it can be quite political but my coworker was grateful that her parents took the actions they took.

Parents routinely make some serious medical decisions for their young children. Some of those decisions are made when children are quite young or in infancy because that is when the best outcomes can be achieved. I don't know of anyone who has made such decisions lightly.

Ah, someone who just can't process the decision between a medical procedure to alleviate an ongoing harmful condition, and cosmetic surgery.

She might as well be arguing that parents be allowed to tattoo and Pierce babies, but she just can't see it.

None of the examples I listed were cosmetic but were either performed to alleviate an immediate medical/ functional concern or to prevent a more serious medical concern later.
It’s pretty unfortunate that my parents elected to not have surgery for my sister. She endured a lot of time with an eye patch to correct the lazy eye and when that had limited utlity, she spent the remainder of her childhood through young adulthood extremely self conscious and wearing strong corrective lenses which seriously affected her self-perception and confidence, the effects of which are still obvious decades later.

In my experience, parents make the best decisions that they can for their kids, taking into consideration medical advise and sometimes limited by finances or by fears of the ‘what if???’ They are not always the decisions that I would make but I learned a long time ago that I do not know everything and that the future cannot be predicted with complete certainty.

The problem is that you can't see how *these conditions are analogically unrelated to elective genital mutilation*.

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong, fixing medical conditions that are causing children pain, is not the same thing as cosmetic surgery on their dongs.
 
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