If you are/were a conservative Christian, how do/did you cope with the concept of eternal damnation?

[southernhybrid]

I was raised by parents who became converts to an evangelical type of Christianity when I was about five. Being a good little girl, I believed what I was told in church at a very early age. By the time I was 7 or 8, it bothered me greatly that many of my friends as well as other good people who weren't fundmentalist Christians, would be spending eternity in some awful place that was known for torture and misery. It bothered me so much that I often questioned my father about this, but he never had a good answer, so I simply put it out of my mind until I was about 18 and quickly started to realize that what I had been told was not true. Attending a fundamentalist Christian college for one semester really helped speed things along. Being around all the fundamentalists, simply opened my mind.

So, while I would love to know how any Christians here that believe in a literal hell deal with this cognitive dissonance, I'd also like to hear if other former conservative Christians had problems with the issue of hell and eternal suffering. Did the concept of a literal hell have any influence on your dismissal of that branch of Christianity?

Once I left Christianity and began looking for a more rational religion, the concept of eternal damnation based on one's beliefs sounded more and more ludicrous. I try not to judge those that believe this too harshly, because I feel as if they have been brainwashed, manipulated or successfully indoctrinated. I forgave my parents for indoctrinating me into their religion because I saw them as victims themselves. In my last job before retirement, people who knew I was an atheist were always trying to convince me to come back to Jesus, insinuating that I was going to suffer in hell because I didn't have the same beliefs as they did. To this day, I have a difficult time understanding how they can believe in a god that is so egotistical that he rewards or punishes people based on whether or not they believe he's their savior and not on how they live their lives. Seriously. How do people do that?

 

[James Brown]

Mostly I didn't think about it. My parents sent me to private religious school, so nearly everyone I encountered on a daily basis was a Christian.

When I did think about it, the assurances by St. Paul that "they are without excuse" was usually enough to quiet my doubts.

Until I became an adult and started thinking very similar thoughts to yours. Holding this belief is only one of the things in my youth that I'm not proud of.

 

[ideologyhunter]

PBS ran a doc about evangelicals and their kids back in the 90s. This might've been an episode of one of their public affairs programs, or it might've been a one-shot or a documentary mini-series; I don't remember. The image I can't get out of my mind is an interview with the daughter of a Christian couple from the midwest. She was about 10, had pigtails (and looked like a child living in the 50s.) When asked about heaven and hell, she beamed and discussed the sinners who would go to hell for ever and ever. Obviously, no one in her church was hell-bound -- and it gave her a nice, warm feeling to think that God was gonna get the 'others', those who were deserving of destruction. It's not the best metaphor, but I looked at her and couldn't help thinking of the gentile Germans who watched the Jews get attacked and shipped off to death camps. She was comfortable in her ghoulish theology. Her smile was warm.

 

[southernhybrid]

Wow! How sad that such a young child has been so successfully brainwashed that she only cares about members of her own tribe.
Looking back at why the concept of heaven and hell bothered me so much when I was as young as 7 or 8 was due to the injustice of it all. I probably didn't fully understand the concept of justice at that age, but most all children do understand "fairness." It just wasn't fair that a loving god would also be such a cruel entity.

It wasn't that I was the smartest or the most rational child in the room, or that the concept of god was hard for my young mind to accept, it was the injustice of the idea of eternal punishment for something so innocent.

 

[Lion IRC]

...I was 7 or 8,
...She was about 10, had pigtails

Have we got any preteen kids hanging out at TFF who can explain their cognitive dissonance by way of reply to the Op?

 

[Lion IRC]

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. (Wikipedia)

 

[jab]

I was born to first-generation fundamentalist parents--they were even missionaries for 8 years of my childhood, which meant that for elementary school, i went 3 years to a mission school and was homeschooled for another year. The Church of Christ taught that almost every human who ever existed would end up in Hell.
As a child I was fervently religious, and believed this but was very worried about all the good and not so bad people who were going to eternal suffering. We also believed that we, as mere humans could not know for sure who--including ourselves--was going to be sent to Hell, and did not have the right to presume to adopt God's judgemental prerogative. Thus I also constantly worried that I could go there, and this worry ramped up when I hit puberty. The cognitive dissonance was one of the things that spurred me in my teens to lose my religious faith and my belief in the fundamentalist Christian version of a deity: atheism took longer to arrive at, and was based on the observation that there was no clear evidence for the existence of any sort of deity.

 

[J842P]

PBS ran a doc about evangelicals and their kids back in the 90s. This might've been an episode of one of their public affairs programs, or it might've been a one-shot or a documentary mini-series; I don't remember. The image I can't get out of my mind is an interview with the daughter of a Christian couple from the midwest. She was about 10, had pigtails (and looked like a child living in the 50s.) When asked about heaven and hell, she beamed and discussed the sinners who would go to hell for ever and ever. Obviously, no one in her church was hell-bound -- and it gave her a nice, warm feeling to think that God was gonna get the 'others', those who were deserving of destruction. It's not the best metaphor, but I looked at her and couldn't help thinking of the gentile Germans who watched the Jews get attacked and shipped off to death camps. She was comfortable in her ghoulish theology. Her smile was warm.

Yes, this is a common pattern with Christianity/Islam: the glee that the believes have at the thought of others suffering eternal damnation. Hate the sin and not the sinner indeed.

 

[southernhybrid]

...I was 7 or 8,
...She was about 10, had pigtails

Have we got any preteen kids hanging out at TFF who can explain their cognitive dissonance by way of reply to the Op?

I seriously doubt there are any kids here that young, but I think a couple of us already described the cognitive dissonance that we experienced as young children. Believing that there's a loving god and also believing that this same god punishes anyone who doesn't believe in what the Christian Bible says about salvation, in a more horrific way than anything that any human could ever imagine, causes cognitive dissonance in a lot of us. I supposed that there are people who are able to dismiss these contradictions, but I never could.

Do you believe in a literal hell Lion? If so, how do you cope with that horrific belief? If not, how do you interpret the concept of hell in the Bible? Do you think it's symbolic of something or do you believe it's an actual place? If it's a place, how is it determined who spends eternity there?

 

[southernhybrid]

I was born to first-generation fundamentalist parents--they were even missionaries for 8 years of my childhood, which meant that for elementary school, i went 3 years to a mission school and was homeschooled for another year. The Church of Christ taught that almost every human who ever existed would end up in Hell.
As a child I was fervently religious, and believed this but was very worried about all the good and not so bad people who were going to eternal suffering. We also believed that we, as mere humans could not know for sure who--including ourselves--was going to be sent to Hell, and did not have the right to presume to adopt God's judgemental prerogative. Thus I also constantly worried that I could go there, and this worry ramped up when I hit puberty. The cognitive dissonance was one of the things that spurred me in my teens to lose my religious faith and my belief in the fundamentalist Christian version of a deity: atheism took longer to arrive at, and was based on the observation that there was no clear evidence for the existence of any sort of deity.

That actually sounds worse than what I was taught. My parents and church members didn't seem to believe in the concept of the "elect", at least not in the way that your parents did. They simply believed that all one had to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins, and say that you accept him as your personal savior. It's was that easy to get your ticket to heaven.

But, my own father, who suffered from severe PTSD sometimes seemed to have doubts, and was sometimes fearful that he would be punished in the afterlife for killing Japanese soldiers during WWII. He never told me that, but he apparently told my mother, who probably reassured him that he was "saved".

 

[jab]

I was born to first-generation fundamentalist parents--they were even missionaries for 8 years of my childhood, which meant that for elementary school, i went 3 years to a mission school and was homeschooled for another year. The Church of Christ taught that almost every human who ever existed would end up in Hell.
As a child I was fervently religious, and believed this but was very worried about all the good and not so bad people who were going to eternal suffering. We also believed that we, as mere humans could not know for sure who--including ourselves--was going to be sent to Hell, and did not have the right to presume to adopt God's judgemental prerogative. Thus I also constantly worried that I could go there, and this worry ramped up when I hit puberty. The cognitive dissonance was one of the things that spurred me in my teens to lose my religious faith and my belief in the fundamentalist Christian version of a deity: atheism took longer to arrive at, and was based on the observation that there was no clear evidence for the existence of any sort of deity.

That actually sounds worse than what I was taught. My parents and church members didn't seem to believe in the concept of the "elect", at least not in the way that your parents did. They simply believed that all one had to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins, and say that you accept him as your personal savior. It's was that easy to get your ticket to heaven.

But, my own father, who suffered from severe PTSD sometimes seemed to have doubts, and was sometimes fearful that he would be punished in the afterlife for killing Japanese soldiers during WWII. He never told me that, but he apparently told my mother, who probably reassured him that he was "saved".

My parents did not believe in the doctrine of the elect. They believed in free will but that very few people would be able to exercise it correctly enough to get to Heaven--the narrow way and gate that few enter, etc--and then even once you entered, straying was always a temptation.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I was born to first-generation fundamentalist parents--they were even missionaries for 8 years of my childhood, which meant that for elementary school, i went 3 years to a mission school and was homeschooled for another year. The Church of Christ taught that almost every human who ever existed would end up in Hell.
As a child I was fervently religious, and believed this but was very worried about all the good and not so bad people who were going to eternal suffering. We also believed that we, as mere humans could not know for sure who--including ourselves--was going to be sent to Hell, and did not have the right to presume to adopt God's judgemental prerogative. Thus I also constantly worried that I could go there, and this worry ramped up when I hit puberty. The cognitive dissonance was one of the things that spurred me in my teens to lose my religious faith and my belief in the fundamentalist Christian version of a deity: atheism took longer to arrive at, and was based on the observation that there was no clear evidence for the existence of any sort of deity.

That actually sounds worse than what I was taught. My parents and church members didn't seem to believe in the concept of the "elect", at least not in the way that your parents did. They simply believed that all one had to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins, and say that you accept him as your personal savior. It's was that easy to get your ticket to heaven.

But, my own father, who suffered from severe PTSD sometimes seemed to have doubts, and was sometimes fearful that he would be punished in the afterlife for killing Japanese soldiers during WWII. He never told me that, but he apparently told my mother, who probably reassured him that he was "saved".

You reminded me of my father, also a WWII vet, but who did not suffer from PTSD. In my early 30's we happened upon a brief exchange about Hell. I was already non-religious, though not yet calling myself atheist. I told him it was not comforting to think that some members of our family would be in Hell suffering while others were not, and that it seemed cruel. His reply was just a simple, "We will all be in Heaven."

I think he was referring to all Catholics being in Heaven, while everyone else would be taking their chances with possible Hell.

 

[Lion IRC]

...I was 7 or 8,
...She was about 10, had pigtails

Have we got any preteen kids hanging out at TFF who can explain their cognitive dissonance by way of reply to the Op?

I seriously doubt there are any kids here that young, but I think a couple of us already described the cognitive dissonance that we experienced as young children.

Better we should hear from adults. Better those adults should be able to respond to the Op as bible-believers, in their own words rather than...
When I was a child I used to be a foolish and naive Christian who held contradictory (dissonant) beliefs but now I'm a rational, super smart atheist.

...Believing that there's a loving god and also believing that this same god punishes anyone who doesn't believe in what the Christian Bible says about salvation, in a more horrific way than anything that any human could ever imagine, causes cognitive dissonance in a lot of us.

Imagine?
Which is it? You know what hell entails? Or you just imagine stuff?

...Do you believe in a literal hell Lion?

Tell me what a "literal" hell is and then I can answer you.
I searched the NIV and the KJV and couldn't find the word "literal".

...If so, how do you cope with that horrific belief?

You wanna know what's "horrific"?
A pointless, meaningless, (atheistic) dystopia universe where evil goes unpunished, partly because there's no one powerful enough to universally enforce inevitible punishment, and partly because evil (sin) is a matter of subjective personal opinion. Hitler doesn't go to hell. Hitler never 'meets his maker'. And if the Nazis had won WW2 would history and the victors care about whether the end justified the means?

... If not, how do you interpret the concept of hell in the Bible?

Hell is a permanent decision people make in advance. You either want the Kingdom of God or you want the opposite.
And the opposite is a form of rage against the machine. So you wind up with a realm full of souls tormenting themselves (and each other) in a state of perpetual rage that they can't have things their way.
And if you think that's #unfair well it's no more unfair than all the other cosmic facts of life.
Better we should cooperate with the inevitible and be happy instead.

...Do you think it's symbolic of something or do you believe it's an actual place?

It's as 'actual' a place as any other in this quantum, dark matter, multiverse.
Symbolic? No. If the prison walls are 'symbolic' what does that say of the 'symbolic' crimes and the 'symbolic' victims?

...If it's a place, how is it determined who spends eternity there?

Read the book of Revelation.

 

[southernhybrid]

Thanks for trying to answer my questions Lion. Apparently you and I see things so different that it's difficult to even respond to what you've said. If I time later, I might point out a few things, but bringing up the crazy book of Revelations certainly isn't going to convince me of anything.

All I care about is how a person lives their lives. I'm not perfect but I've always tried to be a good person. I spent 42 years as a professional nurse, primarily caring for older adults, who were frail, often confused and sometimes abandoned by their own families. It was rewarding to be able to care and advocate for the weakest, and the most powerless. My atheist husband used to refer to my work as my "Jesus work." I think he was referring to the parts of the gospel that emphasize good works, the parts that many moderate and liberal Christians support, without taking the concepts of eternal punishment and reward so literally.

I will try to get back to you later when I have more time.

 

[Underseer]

I was never Christian nor conservative, but in my observation, most of them deal with it quite gleefully. The concept of massive human suffering gets them sexually aroused.

 

[southernhybrid]

Hell is a permanent decision people make in advance. You either want the Kingdom of God or you want the opposite.
And the opposite is a form of rage against the machine. So you wind up with a realm full of souls tormenting themselves (and each other) in a state of perpetual rage that they can't have things their way.
And if you think that's #unfair well it's no more unfair than all the other cosmic facts of life.
Better we should cooperate with the inevitible and be happy instead.

Okay. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I am much happier now than I ever was as a young Christian. My life is more satisfying and I no longer have to
feel conflicted about the things I was taught as a child, which now seem horrific and without any convincing evidence. I'm not raging against any machine. The only thing that makes me angry is injustice and my husband's driving. I don't believe in any gods, since I don't find the concept any more convincing than I do the existence of garden fairies, angels or demons. I see all of these things as imaginative ideas that have no basis in reality.

I've had Christian friends that never judged me for being an atheist, never said they would pray for me, never claimed that I was going to be punished for my lack of Christian beliefs. They don't judge me and I don't judge them, even if I don't understand why or how they believe the things that they do. But, the concept of eternal punishment is the most horrific thing that I see in the conservative Christian theology. I have no idea what you mean when you say that we should cooperate with the inevitable and be happy instead. I am happy and what you perceive as inevitable is nonsense to me. The late Issac Asimov who was an atheist, once said something along the lines of "if I were to believe in a god, I'd believe in one that judged man by his character and not by his beliefs." I'm paraphrasing there. I don't remember the exact quote but you get the idea. For me, and many others, it's impossible to believe in any god, but if I could believe that a god existed, it would be a god that understood justice and cared for all people. If punishment was necessary, it would be combined with forgiveness. It certainly wouldn't be used as a threat, as it is in the more conservative branches of Christianity. Hate, fear and threats are very common in religious fundamentalism. I'd prefer to see more love, peace and happiness. But what can you expect from a child of the 60s?

 

[bilby]

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. (Wikipedia)

If you don't see the huge contradiction between believing that God is good, and simultaneously believing that he imposes infinite punishment for minor infractions of his code of conduct, then there is no hope for you.

Or are you suggesting that these fundamentalists don't believe that God is good?

 

[Lion IRC]

Thanks for trying to answer my questions Lion. Apparently you and I see things so different that it's difficult to even respond to what you've said. If I time later, I might point out a few things, but bringing up the crazy book of Revelations certainly isn't going to convince me of anything.

The book of Revelation was only cited because it has an answer - the answer - to the question you asked.
You asked how God determines such things. If you aren't 'convinced' that's how He rolls then keep asking until you find a reply you like.

All I care about is how a person lives their lives.

You sound like you and God have something in common.

I'm not perfect but I've always tried to be a good person.

Yep. That's what God gave us to work with.

I think an all-knowing God would know what's in your heart. And would know your/my/our limitations/imperfections.
Again. See the book of Revelation and especially the part where God doesn't demand perfection but He weighs our lives in a fair and balanced manner.

You know what baffles me? The number of self-professed atheists who talk positively about the (secular) ethic of being a so-called "good person" and yet they can't quite put their finger on why it is they dislike Jesus' teachings.
If heaven is full of "good people" what's wrong with heaven?

I spent 42 years as a professional nurse, primarily caring for older adults, who were frail, often confused and sometimes abandoned by their own families. It was rewarding to be able to care and advocate for the weakest, and the most powerless.

Definitely underpaid and undervalued work.

My atheist husband used to refer to my work as my "Jesus work." I think he was referring to the parts of the gospel that emphasize good works, the parts that many moderate and liberal Christians support, without taking the concepts of eternal punishment and reward so literally.

The book of Revelation specifically mentions "works". It's very light on dead letter adherence to the Law or which baptism you need. You should check it out.

I will try to get back to you later when I have more time.

No need. I wasn't trying to be argumentative. And I don't expect a reply.
I was just giving my reply to you.

 

[bilby]

What's wrong with heaven is the same thing that's wrong with my claim to be in possession of a billion dollars - it sounds fantastic, but the big problem, with both heaven and my billion bucks, is it's nonexistence.

Were I to behave as though these nonexistent things were real, the best I could hope for is disappointment; and it could be a disaster.

You appear to believe that if something sounds nice, that constitutes evidence for its reality. If so, you are wrong.

The supposed teachings of Jesus are either just as good if they were in fact taught by anyone (and they all pre-date Jesus' alleged life); or they are no good regardless of being taught by Jesus or anyone else.

Authority of any kind cannot generate morality. Not God, not Jesus, not the Bible, not the Queen, not the Prime Minister and not your dad. Morality doesn't depend upon an authority under any circumstances.

 

[southernhybrid]

You know what baffles me? The number of self-professed atheists who talk positively about the (secular) ethic of being a so-called "good person" and yet they can't quite put their finger on why it is they dislike Jesus' teachings.
If heaven is full of "good people" what's wrong with heaven?

I don't dislike all of the teachings of Jesus. I only dislike that parts that divide the unsaved from the saved. For example:
"For all come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death." or "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life." There are plenty of other verses that condemn nonbelievers, but I still remember those two from my childhood. Naturally fundies love the KJV of the Bible. It's pretty harsh. Perhaps a more modern version would sound a lot more tolerant. Maybe your translation of the book of Revelations is very different from the one I read as a child. It was used to instill fear in people, make claims about a time when Christians would be raptured to heaven while the unbelievers would be persecuted and suffer during the so called great tribulation. Of course, even fundies don't agree on many things. It still amazes me that I used to listen to fundies argue over whether the rapture would be before the tribulation or after it.

The implication is that only those who believe that Jesus was the son of God will get special treatment while everyone else will die. Now, perhaps you don't take that literally. If so, that's good. I do like the parts of the gospels that emphasize the importance of helping others, not being materialistic, etc. I just don't find that of what has supposedly been said by Jesus is positive. But, of course much of the philosophy of Jesus is similar to many other philosophies, both before and after the time of Christ. My opinion is that those who use Christianity to further charity and promote justice are using their beliefs in a positive way. While, those who believe, like my parents did, only use the teachings of Jesus to condemn and attempt to make others to feel guilty. Like other religions, Christianity serves many purposes and has many different interpretations.

In my dream world, religion would be progressive and regardless of each other's personal beliefs, we would all try to get along and not judge each other. As I said, that's my dream world. We are a very tribal species so I don't see that happening. That is partly why I refer to myself as a cherry picking secular humanist. I like many of the values of the humanist philosophy, but don't think they are much more realistic than most theistic philosophies.

The problem that I have with any afterlife is that it's an unrealistic dream or nightmare depending on which afterlife we're discussing. I don't believe in mind/body dualism. Our minds are totally dependent on the structures of our physical brains. The idea that we will somehow continue to live after all of this matter dies, just seems like magical thinking to me. Too, it might get a little boring in heaven. What do you think people will be doing in heaven? They won't even have meat bodies anymore. What goes on in your concept of heaven? I know that these days, a lot of people believe that they will be reunited with their dogs in heaven. I get that. I can't imagine a world without dogs. But, still, I was never taught that as a child. Do dogs have souls too? You see where I'm going with this. The afterlife is a lovely idea as long as you don't think too hard about it.

Anyway, just like Christians, atheists aren't all alike and we often disagree with each other. We can agree to disagree without telling each other to go to hell.