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Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

In addition to the restriction of freedom of the clients, the law restricts the freedom of sex workers (not slaves; slaves will likely remain slaves), and it seems some of them are also concerned because of the serious risks of the crackdown and some of the legislation enabling it. For example:

http://www.nswp.org/news/new-legislation-poses-threat-sex-workers-the-us
https://www.aclu.org/letter/aclu-letter-opposing-sesta
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-us-cracks-down-on-online-ads-girls-will-die
 
Why is the suffering of people forced into sex trafficking considered an acceptable cost in the interest of you being able to pay for sex? Odd choice of priority. Not very humanist.

And a strawman too. I don't pay for sex. Nor do I wish people to be forced into sex trafficking.

1. Publicly offered (psycho)therapy that helps young men find their way in a healthy socially responsible way?


That would be a nice idea. I support that. But how will that alleviate sexual frustrated men who have no outlet? Prostitution would actually go well hand in hand with that sort of therapy. Maybe we should have public funding for licensed (and well paid and willing) prostitutes
 
Why is the suffering of people forced into sex trafficking considered an acceptable cost in the interest of you being able to pay for sex? Odd choice of priority. Not very humanist.

And a strawman too. I don't pay for sex. Nor do I wish people to be forced into sex trafficking. [1]

1. Publicly offered (psycho)therapy that helps young men find their way in a healthy socially responsible way?


That would be a nice idea. I support that. But how will that alleviate sexual frustrated men who have no outlet? Prostitution would actually go well hand in hand with that sort of therapy. Maybe we should have public funding for licensed (and well paid and willing) prostitutes[2]

1. If what Toni says is true and the legalization of prostitution nationwide does ultimately lead to further trafficking (And why not? Slaves are cheaper than paid professionals, no?) then you understand that to be an implicit cost of your position, yes?

2. Because it helps them understand that prostitutes aren't going to make them content or absolve them of their internal need to justify their existence to themselves. That only comes from making a difference.
 
Earlier Toni made the claim that legalized prostitution doesn't do anything to alleviate rape. I've not yet seen any good research to back that claim up, and it is counter-intuitive. I have however seen research that leans the other way; finding correlation between legalized prostitution and decreased rape statistics.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...dents-of-rape-and_us_58c83be1e4b01d0d473bce8a

A few years ago, researchers at UCLA and Baylor University made a stunning find: When the Rhode Island legislature inadvertently decriminalized indoor prostitution for a number of years, that state saw a 31 percent decline in reported rapes and a similar decline in cases of gonorrhea.

Now comes a new Dutch study that finds much the same causal relationship between decriminalizing prostitution and reducing crime. Researchers at a public research institute in the Netherlands discovered that when major cities in that country opened tippelzones, or areas where street prostitutes could work legally, reports of rape and sexual abuse declined by as much as 30 to 40 percent in the first two years after the zones were opened. In cities that licensed the prostitutes permitted to work in these tippelzones, rapes and sexual abuse dropped by as much as 40 percent, while the reductions in sexual violence were slightly lower in zones that did not enforce the licensing of sex workers.


Particulars from the Holland study:

https://journalistsresource.org/stu...ustice/legal-prostitution-reduce-rape-holland

32 to 40 percent reduction in rape and sexual abuse within two years of a city opening a tippelzone. The higher number is for cities that license sex work in the tippelzone; the lower figure is for cities without a licensing process. “The decreases in sexual abuse are stronger in cities with licensed tippelzones.”

95 percent of the interviewed prostitutes report feeling safer within the tippelzone

In cities with both a tippelzone and a licensing requirement, the authors find a 25 percent reduction in drug-related crimes within two years. That result persists beyond two years.

All of this came up with a simple google. I didn't see anything via that google leaning the other way. So can anyone link me to those studies if they exist?
 
Because it helps them understand that prostitutes aren't going to make them content or absolve them of their internal need to justify their existence to themselves. That only comes from making a difference.

Do you think that will work? Forced celibacy of undesirable men and some brainwashing? I suppose it works a little for the church, but then we do have pedophile priests...
 
Earlier Toni made the claim that legalized prostitution doesn't do anything to alleviate rape. I've seen that claim made elsewhere, claiming that rape is all about power and not about sex. I've not yet seen any good research to back that claim up, and it is counter-intuitive. I have however seen research that leans the other way; finding correlation between legalized prostitution and decreased rape statistics.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...dents-of-rape-and_us_58c83be1e4b01d0d473bce8a




Particulars from the Holland study:

https://journalistsresource.org/stu...ustice/legal-prostitution-reduce-rape-holland



95 percent of the interviewed prostitutes report feeling safer within the tippelzone

In cities with both a tippelzone and a licensing requirement, the authors find a 25 percent reduction in drug-related crimes within two years. That result persists beyond two years.

All of this came up with a simple google. I didn't see anything via that google leaning the other way. So can anyone link me to those studies if they exist?

What do any of those have to do with sex trafficking? The argument wasn't "Legal prostitution doesn't have any benefits" it was "Legal prostitution causes a rise in sex trafficking"
 
Because it helps them understand that prostitutes aren't going to make them content or absolve them of their internal need to justify their existence to themselves. That only comes from making a difference.

Do you think that will work? Forced celibacy of undesirable men and some brainwashing? I suppose it works a little for the church, but then we do have pedophile priests...

Nobody said anything about celibacy. So now who's strawmanning?
 
If what Toni says is true and the legalization of prostitution nationwide does ultimately lead to further trafficking (And why not? Slaves are cheaper than paid professionals, no?) then you understand that to be an implicit cost of your position, yes?

Sure, and justification for a ban will require good data and high numbers, neither of which I have seen. And as I asked Toni, if you want to restrict freedom in order to curtail exploitation of women, why not ban abortion due to men coercing women into having abortions to avoid paying child support? Why not impose curfews on teenagers? Why not ban sex outside of marriage? Etc?
 
Earlier Toni made the claim that legalized prostitution doesn't do anything to alleviate rape. I've not yet seen any good research to back that claim up, and it is counter-intuitive.
How so? Rape isn't about sex as much as force regarding violent random rapes and entitlement regarding date rapes.

Legalized prostitution doesn't help out in either of those situations.

Regarding the drop in rape and sex abuse, as quoted by Jolly Penguin, the following bullet point from the one he quoted stated:
  • "These gains fade over time."
 
Do you think that will work? Forced celibacy of undesirable men and some brainwashing? I suppose it works a little for the church, but then we do have pedophile priests...

Nobody said anything about celibacy. So now who's strawmanning?

What is your alternative? You said some counselling. What is your sexual alternative if not celibacy? There are some ugly men out there, deformed, crippled, old who can't attract women. They go to prostitutes. You take that away, and now what? More rape? The studies I posted seem to suggest that.
 
What is your alternative? You said some counselling. What is your sexual alternative if not celibacy? There are some ugly men out there, deformed, crippled, old who can't attract women. They go to prostitutes.

Most ugly men actually don't.

Jolly_Penguin said:
You take that away, and now what? More rape? The studies I posted seem to suggest that.

I think there may be some studies like that regarding porn.

Also, I notice you skipped over my previous reply to you.
 
Earlier Toni made the claim that legalized prostitution doesn't do anything to alleviate rape. I've not yet seen any good research to back that claim up, and it is counter-intuitive.
How so? Rape isn't about sex as much as force regarding violent random rapes and entitlement regarding date rapes.

Legalized prostitution doesn't help out in either of those situations.

Rape is about both. Its a sex crime. It is motivated by sexual desire at its base, and then entitlement and power get mixed into it. Do you think a man with no sexual desire will rape? Seems very unlikely to me.
 
If what Toni says is true and the legalization of prostitution nationwide does ultimately lead to further trafficking (And why not? Slaves are cheaper than paid professionals, no?) then you understand that to be an implicit cost of your position, yes?

Sure, and justification for a ban will require good data and high numbers, neither of which I have seen. And as I asked Toni, if you want to restrict freedom in order to curtail exploitation of women, why not ban abortion due to men coercing women into having abortions to avoid paying child support? Why not impose curfews on teenagers? Why not ban sex outside of marriage? Etc?
Well, because there's more than just one justification for starters.

Typically the justification has never really been about limiting sex trafficking so much as limiting the spread of disease and avoiding the moral decay of society by allowing people to act in salacious and sinful ways, as well as by flooding it with single mothers and bastard children.
 
Do you think that will work? Forced celibacy of undesirable men and some brainwashing? I suppose it works a little for the church, but then we do have pedophile priests...

Nobody said anything about celibacy. So now who's strawmanning?

What is your alternative? You said some counselling. What is your sexual alternative if not celibacy? There are some ugly men out there, deformed, crippled, old who can't attract women. They go to prostitutes. You take that away, and now what? More rape? The studies I posted seem to suggest that.

Counsel just means advice, I didn't say they need advice I said they need a trained professional psycho-therapist to help them understand themselves better and with that a new way to move forward and upward in positive, healthy, and productive means.
 
If what Toni says is true and the legalization of prostitution nationwide does ultimately lead to further trafficking (And why not? Slaves are cheaper than paid professionals, no?) then you understand that to be an implicit cost of your position, yes?

Sure, and justification for a ban will require good data and high numbers, neither of which I have seen. And as I asked Toni, if you want to restrict freedom in order to curtail exploitation of women, why not ban abortion due to men coercing women into having abortions to avoid paying child support? Why not impose curfews on teenagers? Why not ban sex outside of marriage? Etc?
Well, because there's more than just one justification for starters.

Typically the justification has never really been about limiting sex trafficking so much as limiting the spread of disease and avoiding the moral decay of society by allowing people to act in salacious and sinful ways, as well as by flooding it with single mothers and bastard children.

That eliminates the first example above, but not the other two. And if your present concern is abuse and exploitation of women, then the first example also stands. Seriously, you could prevent most rape if you simply covered women up and locked women away to keep them safe from male predators and didn't allow them outside the house without a male chaperone to protect them like Muslim societies push. Or you could lock chastity belts on all men as Toni suggested, etc.

What you need to justify a ban on prostitution is good data with high numbers (more than what Toni has presented) that it will prevent rape and sex trafficking and other exploitation. Have you considered that sex traffickers may WANT prostitution to remain illegal? It drives prices up and allows blackmail and other pressures against both prostitutes and johns. How much of the legal sex industry is rape and sex trafficking of unwilling women? And does shutting it down help or hurt those women? That's not a question I'm prepared to assume the answer to without very convincing data especially if the answer may the the polar opposite of that assumption. This is about restricting freedom and we should be very careful with that.
 
Earlier Toni made the claim that legalized prostitution doesn't do anything to alleviate rape. I've not yet seen any good research to back that claim up, and it is counter-intuitive.
How so? Rape isn't about sex as much as force regarding violent random rapes and entitlement regarding date rapes.

Legalized prostitution doesn't help out in either of those situations.

Rape is about both. Its a sex crime. It is motivated by sexual desire at its base, and then entitlement and power get mixed into it. Do you think a man with no sexual desire will rape? Seems very unlikely to me.

Rage. You are forgetting rage. And yes, there are individuals who experience rage as a function of their sexuality.
 
Well, because there's more than just one justification for starters.

Typically the justification has never really been about limiting sex trafficking so much as limiting the spread of disease and avoiding the moral decay of society by allowing people to act in salacious and sinful ways, as well as by flooding it with single mothers and bastard children.

That eliminates the first example above, but not the other two. And if your present concern is abuse and exploitation of women, then the first example also stands. Seriously, you could prevent most rape if you simply covered women up and locked women away to keep them safe from male predators and didn't allow them outside the house without a male chaperone to protect them like Muslim societies push.

No, that would not solve the problem. Most sexual assaults do not happen from strangers but instead someone you know and trust. By locking them in the house you are putting them around people who are even higher risk than an average stranger, or maybe it's a time thing, since they are there so much more than outside. In any case, you wouldn't eliminate the majority of assaults. You might have to also surround them with at least 4 other armed women at all times, even inside their own houses, in addition to your suggestion.

Or you could lock chastity belts on all men as Toni suggested, etc.

That would solve the majority of the assaults.

I am not sure what any of this has to do with BackPage though. Did you read my previous post?
 
Well, because there's more than just one justification for starters.

Typically the justification has never really been about limiting sex trafficking so much as limiting the spread of disease and avoiding the moral decay of society by allowing people to act in salacious and sinful ways, as well as by flooding it with single mothers and bastard children.

That eliminates the first example above, but not the other two. And if your present concern is abuse and exploitation of women, then the first example also stands. Seriously, you could prevent most rape if you simply covered women up and locked women away to keep them safe from male predators and didn't allow them outside the house without a male chaperone to protect them like Muslim societies push. Or you could lock chastity belts on all men as Toni suggested, etc.

What you need to justify a ban on prostitution is good data with high numbers (more than what Toni has presented) that it will prevent rape and sex trafficking and other exploitation. Have you considered that sex traffickers may WANT prostitution to remain illegal? It drives prices up and allows blackmail and other pressures against both prostitutes and johns. How much of the legal sex industry is rape and sex trafficking of unwilling women? And does shutting it down help or hurt those women? That's not a question I'm prepared to assume the answer to without very convincing data especially if the answer may the the polar opposite of that assumption. This is about restricting freedom and we should be very careful with that.

What do you think a prostitute's chances of also making for a good wife/mother are? I don't want to assume out of personal bigotry but that assumption wouldn't be favorable. You'll notice by the way that wives and mothers are two things vital to the continued existence of a society. So I'm sure they're two things you also value deeply. It could be fine of course, perhaps prostitution is merely a young person's game and eventually those women grow older and move on to starting a family, but then perhaps not. Perhaps most women wont even desire to prostitute themselves, but then we can't say what the future will hold, especially in a world of growing automation for other occupations and increasing inequality.

Seems like a pretty big recipe for disasterous depopulation wherein men no longer find sex through forming a bond and starting a family but by merely paying their day's wages for it. Perhaps experiment 25 is an omen for times ahead. Perhaps I have my next idea for a dystopic speculative fiction novel!
 
Earlier Toni made the claim that legalized prostitution doesn't do anything to alleviate rape. I've not yet seen any good research to back that claim up, and it is counter-intuitive. I have however seen research that leans the other way; finding correlation between legalized prostitution and decreased rape statistics.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...dents-of-rape-and_us_58c83be1e4b01d0d473bce8a




Particulars from the Holland study:

https://journalistsresource.org/stu...ustice/legal-prostitution-reduce-rape-holland



95 percent of the interviewed prostitutes report feeling safer within the tippelzone

In cities with both a tippelzone and a licensing requirement, the authors find a 25 percent reduction in drug-related crimes within two years. That result persists beyond two years.

All of this came up with a simple google. I didn't see anything via that google leaning the other way. So can anyone link me to those studies if they exist?

It's not clear to me that the incidence of rape decreased throughout the country or only in zones with legalized prostitution.

What is clear to me is that in the US, the incidence of crime, especially violent crime, and including rape and sexual assault has dropped quite significantly from the early 1990's.

I don't see an actual causal relationship between legalized prostitution and a decrease in rapes in general. It is plausible that a decrease in rapes of sex workers and other crimes in legal prostitution zones decreased because of an increased and focused police presence.

Edited to add this link: https://www.statista.com/statistics/191226/reported-forcible-rape-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/
 
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