When Misogynists Become Terrorists

[RavenSky]

Follow up to and continuation of the discussion here: https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?13778-Van-Attack-in-Toronto/ - an opinion piece from the New York Times

And now, in the aftermath of the attack in Toronto, men on incel communities are hailing the killer as a “new saint,” with commenters changing their avatars to Mr. Minassian’s picture in tribute.

How fucking sick is that...

Over the past decade, anti-women communities on the internet — ranging from “men’s rights” forums and incels to “pickup artists” — have grown exponentially. While these movements differ in small ways, what they have in common is an organized hatred of women; the animus is so pronounced that the hate-watch group Southern Poverty Law Center tracks their actions.

The other dangerous idea that connects these men is their shared belief that women — good-looking women, in particular — owe them sexual attention. The incel community that Mr. Minassian paid homage to, for example, was banned from Reddit last year because, among other issues, some adherents advocated rape as a means to end their celibacy.

In the wake of the Toronto attack, a well-known member of the “pickup artist” community, Daryush Valizadeh, tweeted that “sleeping with only two or three Toronto Tinder sluts would have been enough to stop” Mr. Minassian’s “urge to kill.” Mr. Valizadeh has argued for the legalization of rape.

...men’s-rights groups who were angry with women about everything from custody battles to the false notion that most women lie about rape.

sounds familiar...

This is interesting:

Part of the problem is that American culture still largely sees men’s sexism as something innate rather than deviant. And in a world where sexism is deemed natural, the misogynist tendencies of mass shooters become afterthoughts rather than predictable...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/26/opinion/when-misogynists-become-terrorists.html

 

[Lion IRC]

"Innate"
"Born-that-way"
These are becoming a popular justification for all sorts of deviant human behaviour these days.

 

[Trausti]

Hang on. Hasn't the uptight citizen's brigade told us that when a terrorist attack happens that the attacker's political or religious beliefs are irrelevant? That we shouldn't be critical of an entire community due to shared beliefs?

 

[Arctish]

Hang on. Hasn't the uptight citizen's brigade told us that when a terrorist attack happens that the attacker's political or religious beliefs are irrelevant? That we shouldn't be critical of an entire community due to shared beliefs?

No.

Political or religious beliefs can be highly relevant. But not all political or religious beliefs are.

We should be critical of members of a community that shares a belief in violence as a means of achieving their goals, or who have declared their support for those who commit such acts.

We should not criticize members of a community that share beliefs with ^this group^ if what's shared isn't a belief in using violence as a means to an end. They might have other beliefs that in our opinion merit criticism, but those different belief sets shouldn't be conflated.

Believing that Mohammed rode a magic horse up to heaven is not the same as believing it's good to stab filmmakers who 'insult the Prophet'. Believing that abortion is murder isn't the same thing as believing God wants you to shoot liberals, even though some Christians do both. Believing that Staceys prefer Chads to ordinary guys isn't the same thing as believing that killing a roomful of college students is an appropriate response to anything, despite praise for the shooter posted by incels.

The broader the brush, the less precise the painting.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, the vast majority of incels are just lonely people who feel a need to vent about the fact that their life hasn't matched up to their expectations just like the vast majority of Muslims are a misguided group of people who think that a talking rock is going to teach them the secret of making the perfect pancake if they pray hard enough (or whatever the exact details of their religion is, it's not important to the point). There's nothing particularly wrong with that and they should be free to live their lives how they choose, no matter how dumb or silly other people think the things which are important to them are.

However, there are subgroups amongst them who praise the actions of the guy who shot up the Pulse nightclub or drove his car through the crowd in Toronto and this part of the group is more dangerous. There are smaller subgroups of those subgroups who actually want to emulate them and kill people themselves who are more dangerous still. We can oppose and condemn these latter groups without giving two shits about the broader groups which they're contained in.

 

[untermensche]

I thought the title was about the Bush administration attacking Iraq.

 

[Toni]

Ya, the vast majority of incels are just lonely people who feel a need to vent about the fact that their life hasn't matched up to their expectations just like the vast majority of Muslims are a misguided group of people who think that a talking rock is going to teach them the secret of making the perfect pancake if they pray hard enough (or whatever the exact details of their religion is, it's not important to the point). There's nothing particularly wrong with that and they should be free to live their lives how they choose, no matter how dumb or silly other people think the things which are important to them are.

However, there are subgroups amongst them who praise the actions of the guy who shot up the Pulse nightclub or drove his car through the crowd in Toronto and this part of the group is more dangerous. There are smaller subgroups of those subgroups who actually want to emulate them and kill people themselves who are more dangerous still. We can oppose and condemn these latter groups without giving two shits about the broader groups which they're contained in.

We can do that, sure. But we would be missing out understanding why these things happen. The fact is, the world is changing rather rapidly. Male dominance —especially white male diminance—as well as restrictive religious and cultural traditions are being left behind. Much of this is for the better, but I understand and appreciate the fear of loss of identity and loss of the positive aspects of to traditions, particularly those that place value on family, caring for members of society, especially the most vulnerable, the young, the sick, the old.

It’s a serious mistake to ignore those things in the name of ‘progress.’

 

[scombrid]

Hasn't the uptight citizen's brigade told us that when a terrorist attack happens that the attacker's political or religious beliefs are irrelevant?

No

That we shouldn't be critical of an entire community due to shared beliefs?

We shouldn't wrongly attribute shared beliefs to an entire community that we too broadly define. You know, we should distinguish between sects and such.

 

[ronburgundy]

Hang on. Hasn't the uptight citizen's brigade told us that when a terrorist attack happens that the attacker's political or religious beliefs are irrelevant? That we shouldn't be critical of an entire community due to shared beliefs?

No.

Political or religious beliefs can be highly relevant. But not all political or religious beliefs are.

We should be critical of members of a community that shares a belief in violence as a means of achieving their goals, or who have declared their support for those who commit such acts.

We should not criticize members of a community that share beliefs with ^this group^ if what's shared isn't a belief in using violence as a means to an end.

The Koran, like the Bible, thoroughly promotes violence as a means to an end, and especially violence against women, plus inherently promotes anti-democratic authoritarian power systems that can only be maintained by such unjust violence.
Thus, anyone that supports the Bible or the Koran in general is inherently promoting violence and misogyny. The fact that most of them are to selfish to consider this reality of what their beliefs promote and the harm it does to others does not absolve them of moral responsibility for that violence, even if their responsibility is much less than that of the actual perpetrators of the violence. It is analogous to the responsibility of parents who promote values of misogyny or homophobia in their child who then grows up to beat his wife or assault a homosexual. While not responsible in the way the wife beater is, the parents' beliefs and their promotion of the ideas are still immoral acts they should be harshly judged for.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hasn't the uptight citizen's brigade told us that when a terrorist attack happens that the attacker's political or religious beliefs are irrelevant?

No

That we shouldn't be critical of an entire community due to shared beliefs?

We shouldn't wrongly attribute shared beliefs to an entire community that we too broadly define. You know, we should distinguish between sects and such.

Yeah, Trausti's post seems terribly confused. People that are terrorists shouldn't be held in high regard. If a terrorist is a Muslim, that doesn't mean Islam becomes the fall guy. Much like with the Incel shit. People that feel that way are disturbed and need help. Just because they tend to be men, doesn't mean all men then take the fall.

 

[repoman]

Is anyone up on the current proceedings with this Van killer in Toronto?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Is anyone up on the current proceedings with this Van killer in Toronto?

He's been charged with multiple counts of murder and attempted murder. Given Canadian sentencing guidelines, that means he's facing between three to seven months in prison followed by a sternly worded note politely asking him not to do it again. Also, I believe there'll be an additional surcharge on the insurance rates the next time he wants to rent a van.

 

[Playball40]

"Innate"
"Born-that-way"
These are becoming a popular justification for all sorts of deviant human behaviour these days.

Such as?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

ranging from “men’s rights” forums and incels to “pickup artists”

I love how this article lumps those three things together so casually. That really sets an informed tone for the whole rest of the article.

 

[Arctish]

ranging from “men’s rights” forums and incels to “pickup artists”

I love how this article lumps those three things together so casually. That really sets an informed tone for the whole rest of the article.

"[R]anging from". It's a diverse community.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I love how this article lumps those three things together so casually. That really sets an informed tone for the whole rest of the article.

"[R]anging from". It's a diverse community.

It's not a community, it is three different communities.

 

[laughing dog]

I love how this article lumps those three things together so casually. That really sets an informed tone for the whole rest of the article.

"[R]anging from". It's a diverse community.

Of course it is. But why waste your time in watching someone attempt to split a pointless hair after a pointless hair on a bald man's head?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So you can take any three communities, lump them together, and get away with it by saying "ranging from" and "diverse"?

Such as NAMBLA, the KKK, and People from Minnesota and Alaska?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Internet communities ranging from NAMBLA, to KKK, and people from Minnesota and Alaska are being tracked by the government.

 

[repoman]

Internet communities ranging from NAMBLA, to KKK, and people from Minnesota and Alaska are being tracked by the government.

What happens if you combine incels and NAMBLA?