Rules changing on For Profit Schools in USA? Affirmative Action too?

[Jolly_Penguin]

Is anyone here familiar with what is going on behind this news story? I would personally prefer that all schools be public schools and not for profit, but if you are going to have for profit schools, I also prefer that students have strong protections from being led into debt to these schools with any fishy practices. I'll need to learn more before having a solid position on this, but I'm pretty sure I oppose DeVos here.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/profit-colleges-struggle-despite-assist-betsy-devos-n863641

In other news, DeVos is also apparently finally dismantling the Obama era affirmative action "guidance" that used race in college admissions. Can anyone flesh that out for us? Derec, you post about this a lot. I am surprised you didn't post this yet.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/politics/trump-administration-college-admissions/index.html

I am strongly opposed to discrimination against these Asian students, and have faced similar myself when I applied for schools here in Canada. I got in, because my grades were much higher than most, but I had Asian friends who didn't get in where they applied because "too many of your kind already" sort of thinking. I'll need to learn more before having a solid position on this as well, but I'm pretty sure I support DeVos here.

Tuesday's reversal also does not affect what a school decides to do on its own within the confines of current Supreme Court precedent, but civil rights groups swiftly reacted with disappointment.

"We condemn the Department of Education's politically motivated attack on affirmative action and deliberate attempt to discourage colleges and universities from pursuing racial diversity at our nation's colleges and universities," said Kristen Clarke, president and executive director of the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law. "The rescission of this guidance does not overrule forty years of precedent that affirms the constitutionality of a university's limited use of race in college admissions. This most recent decision by the Department of Education is wholly consistent with the administration's unwavering hostility towards diversity in our schools."

It is weird seeing a civil rights group argue for discrimination like this. If what the students at Harvard are arguing is true, then how are they in the wrong? Its not right to dismiss people from the Admissions process because they are Asian in race. And it also is not right to hide documents that document this, as Harvard is accused of doing. If Harvard is doing this, Harvard is in the wrong and civil rights groups should be against Harvard here, not for it here.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Question, are Asians being prevented from attending Harvard? Asians represent over 1 in 5 students at Harvard (Asians represent about 1 in 16 people in the US). Blacks represent about 1 in 7 students. Latino are about 1 in 9. Whites are about 1 in 2. So Asians are the second highest represented race in Harvard and well beyond their representation within the general US Population... and they are being discriminated.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Question, are Asians being prevented from attending Harvard?

It would appear so. If the allegations are true, then there are numerous Asian students are who excluded from attending Harvard due to their race. The fact that other people who are not them who get in and who are also Asian doesn't change that.

Asians represent over 1 in 5 students at Harvard (Asians represent about 1 in 16 people in the US). Blacks represent about 1 in 7 students. Latino are about 1 in 9. Whites are about 1 in 2. So Asians are the second highest represented race in Harvard and well beyond their representation within the general US Population... and they are being discriminated.

Yes, if the allegations are true, then many of them are.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Question, are Asians being prevented from attending Harvard?

It would appear so.

How? With the over 1 in 5 representation, sounds like Harvard is allowing Asians to attend Harvard. I could be wrong, but 1 in 5 seems larger than 0 in 5.

If the allegations are true, then there are numerous Asian students are who excluded from attending Harvard due to their race.

Wait, so some Asians are being blocked from going to Harvard. So Harvard has a policy of allowing all Blacks, all Hispanics, and all Whites in, but Harvard draws the line on Asians.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

How? With the over 1 in 5 representation, sounds like Harvard is allowing Asians to attend Harvard. I could be wrong, but 1 in 5 seems larger than 0 in 5.

Asians are not a monolith. Races are not monoliths. Why do I have to keep repeating that? "We have enough of your race, so you are excluded" is racist. Do you say it is not?

Wait, so some Asians are being blocked from going to Harvard. So Harvard has a policy of allowing all Blacks, all Hispanics, and all Whites in, but Harvard draws the line on Asians.

Not what I said at all, and I think you know that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

"We have enough of your race, so you are excluded" is racist. Do you say it is not?

Who said that?

Wait, so some Asians are being blocked from going to Harvard. So Harvard has a policy of allowing all Blacks, all Hispanics, and all Whites in, but Harvard draws the line on Asians.

Not what I said at all, and I think you know that.

Wait, you mean that some blacks, latinos, whites aren't admitted either? It isn't just some Asians? Having a hard time seeing the racism here? Some Asians are in, some blacks are in, some latinos are in, some whites are in.

Are you suggesting that Harvard's admittance protocols aren't looking at admission qualifications of applicants in a bubble and thus aren't admitting only Asians is racist? That sounds kind of dumb to consider that racist.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Who said that?

I did. Do you agree or disagree? I'm deliberately not putting words in your mouth here. Is "We have enough of your kind" racist? Or isn't it? If it is, then is what Harvard is doing excusable? If so, why? People can be excluded by race even if others of that same race have been allowed in, and it doesn't make it any less racist to those who are excluded due to their race. Does it?

Not what I said at all, and I think you know that.

Wait, you mean that some blacks, latinos, whites aren't admitted either? It isn't just some Asians? Having a hard time seeing the racism here? Some Asians are in, some blacks are in, some latinos are in, some whites are in.

Are you suggesting that Harvard's admittance protocols aren't looking at admission qualifications of applicants in a bubble and thus aren't admitting only Asians is racist? That sounds kind of dumb to consider that racist.

It isn't about "some being in". Its about the school deliberately excluding applicants due to their race or setting a higher entrance standard due to their race. That's what Harvard is being accused of, and if that accusation is true, then this is racist.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I did. Do you agree or disagree?

I agree you said it. I was confused why you quoted something while talking about Harvard Admission policies if the quote wasn't attributed to anyone involved with said policies.

Is "We have enough of your kind" racist? Or isn't it? If it is, then is what Harvard is doing excusable?

Wait... you said you said it... but are again falsely attributing it to Harvard admission staff. I'm confused as to why you feel you need to do such a thing to make an argument.

Wait, you mean that some blacks, latinos, whites aren't admitted either? It isn't just some Asians? Having a hard time seeing the racism here? Some Asians are in, some blacks are in, some latinos are in, some whites are in.
Are you suggesting that Harvard's admittance protocols aren't looking at admission qualifications of applicants in a bubble and thus aren't admitting only Asians is racist? That sounds kind of dumb to consider that racist.

It isn't about "some being in". Its about the school deliberately excluding applicants due to their race or setting a higher entrance standard due to their race. That's what Harvard is being accused of, and if that accusation is true, then this is racist.

Harvard is being accused of not viewing qualifications in a bubble. They are being accused of taking each candidate individually and assessing their achievements on their own individual baseline. That is racism? Gosh, I must have been out on a bender when that decision was made include that in the term "racism".

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I agree you said it.

And do you agree or disagree with what I said? Is excluding people based on their race because there are plenty of others already included who are their same race racist or not? You wrote above about how many of each race is admitted. Is that relevant to it being or not being racism should a student be denied entry due to her race, regardless of what her race she is?

Harvard is being accused of not viewing qualifications in a bubble. They are being accused of taking each candidate individually and assessing their achievements on their own individual baseline. That is racism? Gosh, I must have been out on a bender when that decision was made include that in the term "racism".

Yes, that is racism if they set race as a proxy or if they set a higher or lower bar based on race. It remains to be seen if they did that, but that is the accusation the students have made against them.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Jimmy, that is the most beautiful case of deliberate misunderstanding I have ever seen. So I will help my friend here by giving you some examples based on the real world.

In theory, a college admission could be calculated by giving so many points for GPA and so many points for SAT scores. Under that system, people who have enough points get in and people who do not have enough points do not get in. This crosses all racial categories, so a smart over-achieving Hispanic will get in while a lazy and unintelligent Asian will not. Of course, as we have seen, this does lead to outcomes that show over-representation of some races and under-representation of others, thus Harvard having 1 in 5 Asians while the general population having 1 in 16.

On the other hand, if I were to design an Affirmative Action admissions plan, I would not use quotas. I would take the two variables of SAT and GPA and add a third, adding so many points based on racial category. This would change peoples point totals relative to each other based on race. Again, then, those with the most points would get in, only the racial distribution would be altered. Again there are people of all races who would be admitted and people of all races who would be denied, but the people involved change.

The reason some people call it racist is because of the people at the margins of the two plans. Some people who would be admitted under the first plan will be denied under the second plan. Some people who would be admitted under the second plan will be denied under the first plan.

The only difference between the two plans is the addition of race to the mix. So those who would be admitted under the first plan but denied under the second plan, would you fault them for saying that denying them is a racist decision?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Harvard is being accused of not viewing qualifications in a bubble. They are being accused of taking each candidate individually and assessing their achievements on their own individual baseline. That is racism? Gosh, I must have been out on a bender when that decision was made include that in the term "racism".

Yes, that is racism if they set race as a proxy or if they set a higher or lower bar based on race.

It remains to be seen if they did that, but that is the accusation the students have made against them.

There is little reason to believe they did, I mean other than wanting to view oneself as a victim.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It remains to be seen if they did that, but that is the accusation the students have made against them.

There is little reason to believe they did, I mean other than wanting to view oneself as a victim.

We don't know. All we know for sure so far is that they are accused of it and it is being litigated in court, and that they sought to exclude their records from court review (possibly to obscure it?; They claim its for privacy reasons).

 

[laughing dog]

In theory, a college admission could be calculated by giving so many points for GPA and so many points for SAT scores.

That is your theory, but there is no reason to adopt it for all cases. Another theory is that college admission standards should be set by the institution of higher learning that are consistent with its goals. That may mean some numerical standard, it may not.

 

[laughing dog]

As for Secretary DeVos's changes, it is clear the Trump administration wishes to help the for-profit institutions which have been battered by allegations and convictions for fraud and overcharging students and under-delivering on their promises.

In terms of the Obama regulations for admissions, the changes in federal rules do not prevent institutions from coming up with their own admission standards as long as they adhere to the law and the precedents set by SCOTUS.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

In theory, a college admission could be calculated by giving so many points for GPA and so many points for SAT scores.

That is your theory, but there is no reason to adopt it for all cases.

Fascinating.

"Even though you're saying 'in theory' I'm still going to go out of my way to say you are wrong."

Let's get down to basics.

Premise: Assume All A is B.

Now go ahead and tell me I'm wrong about that.

 

[laughing dog]

In theory, a college admission could be calculated by giving so many points for GPA and so many points for SAT scores.

That is your theory, but there is no reason to adopt it for all cases.

Fascinating.

"Even though you're saying 'in theory' I'm still going to go out of my way to say you are wrong."

Let's get down to basics.

Premise: Assume All A is B.

Now go ahead and tell me I'm wrong about that.

Your response is based on an obvious misreading. I didn't say you were wrong. You are free to use any premise you want. And anyone is free to reject your premise.

 

[Toni]

In theory, a college admission could be calculated by giving so many points for GPA and so many points for SAT scores.

That is your theory, but there is no reason to adopt it for all cases.

Fascinating.

"Even though you're saying 'in theory' I'm still going to go out of my way to say you are wrong."

Let's get down to basics.

Premise: Assume All A is B.

Now go ahead and tell me I'm wrong about that.

The fact is that more and more universities and medical schools are questioning the old admissions criteria that relied so heavily on test scores and GPA’s and even abandoning these as primary criteria. They are doing this because stellar GPA’s and test scores have proven to be unreliable predictors of academic success at their universities and medical schools. This seems incredible unless you consider a few factors, including grade inflation, and the fact that many students achieve their success in these metrics because. Mom and dad could foot the bill for tutors and cram schools and prep courses to ensure that their little darlings got the highest scores possible. This is not the same thing as teaching a great work ethic nor is it indicative of raw talent that can be overlooked in students who come from more modest means. Or from parents who are willing to allow them to succeed or fail on their own efforts rather than the efforts of mom and dad and the six tutors who have coached every aspect of the applicants’ lives. This is not synonymous with preparing a student to excel at university where they must rely upon their own motivations and efforts and utilize the skills of an increasingly independent thinking and acting young adult. Profs are actually not impressed by parents trying to run interference for their little darlings. Because it doesn’t serve the best interests of the student.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Another theory is that college admission standards should be set by the institution of higher learning that are consistent with its goals. That may mean some numerical standard, it may not.

Under that theory, is race based admissions and standards excusable when its done to put a barrier to black people getting in as well, or only Asians? A lot of history could be excused under such a theory perhaps. Bad theory.

The fact is that more and more universities and medical schools are questioning the old admissions criteria that relied so heavily on test scores and GPA’s and even abandoning these as primary criteria. They are doing this because stellar GPA’s and test scores have proven to be unreliable predictors of academic success at their universities and medical schools. This seems incredible unless you consider a few factors, including grade inflation, and the fact that many students achieve their success in these metrics because. Mom and dad could foot the bill for tutors and cram schools and prep courses to ensure that their little darlings got the highest scores possible. This is not the same thing as teaching a great work ethic nor is it indicative of raw talent that can be overlooked in students who come from more modest means. Or from parents who are willing to allow them to succeed or fail on their own efforts rather than the efforts of mom and dad and the six tutors who have coached every aspect of the applicants’ lives. This is not synonymous with preparing a student to excel at university where they must rely upon their own motivations and efforts and utilize the skills of an increasingly independent thinking and acting young adult. Profs are actually not impressed by parents trying to run interference for their little darlings. Because it doesn’t serve the best interests of the student.

This is true, and it is not synonymous with race.

 

[Derec]

The fact is that more and more universities and medical schools are questioning the old admissions criteria that relied so heavily on test scores and GPA’s and even abandoning these as primary criteria. They are doing this because stellar GPA’s and test scores have proven to be unreliable predictors of academic success at their universities and medical schools.

I have hard time believing that. You have a source for that claim. It seems to me much more likely that these schools are abandoning objective criteria like grades and scores because they want to push their own agenda like admitting more of preferred racial groups than would be admitted normally. Much easier to fudge when you have subjective factors predominate.

This seems incredible unless you consider a few factors, including grade inflation, and the fact that many students achieve their success in these metrics because. Mom and dad could foot the bill for tutors and cram schools and prep courses to ensure that their little darlings got the highest scores possible. This is not the same thing as teaching a great work ethic nor is it indicative of raw talent that can be overlooked in students who come from more modest means. Or from parents who are willing to allow them to succeed or fail on their own efforts rather than the efforts of mom and dad and the six tutors who have coached every aspect of the applicants’ lives. This is not synonymous with preparing a student to excel at university where they must rely upon their own motivations and efforts and utilize the skills of an increasingly independent thinking and acting young adult. Profs are actually not impressed by parents trying to run interference for their little darlings. Because it doesn’t serve the best interests of the student.

There may be a little truth to this, but grades and scores are still the best predictor we have. It is certainly better than using race as a criterion. Just because objective criteria like grades and scores may not be ideal and flawless, does not mean that subjective criteria are better.

 

[laughing dog]

Under that theory, is race based admissions and standards excusable when its done to put a barrier to black people getting in as well, or only Asians? A lot of history could be excused under such a theory perhaps. Bad theory.

Yes, if you assume that theory performed in a vacuum and unaffected by the laws of the state. By why would one make such an assumption?