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Are you a moral person?

So, Bronzeage, a sage grouse that winds up being food for predators because it camps on the outskirts of Sage Hen town is moral?

No, and neither would you if it were actually the case that morality was a component of fitness which is certainly is not.

Rationality is at the base of most (supply a word that rhymes with duplicity). That rabbit is never going to catch that turtle, hear?/nonsense

Steve bank did you just say what I said is like what Trump sez? RU also saying that a value judgement is always subjective? Value can be operationalized yano.

gbmteach. NO!

Stop this nonsense. Get back to flipping prayer wheels. OK?
 
Do you see yourself as a moral and ethical person in daily life? If so what guides you and why?

Is lying by word or omission in the work place ok? Taking pens or copy paper? Taking unfair advantage of someone?

I'm Nietzschean. So I'm amoral. I'm good because I want others to think of me as good. I'm dependable because I want others to trust me. I don't lie because it often comes back to bite me.

I believe that if we never would have to answer for our transgressions morality would erode fast.

I also think this is universal. Any other belief is delusional IMHO
 
Do you see yourself as a moral and ethical person in daily life? If so what guides you and why?

Is lying by word or omission in the work place ok? Taking pens or copy paper? Taking unfair advantage of someone?

I'm Nietzschean. So I'm amoral. I'm good because I want others to think of me as good. I'm dependable because I want others to trust me. I don't lie because it often comes back to bite me.

I believe that if we never would have to answer for our transgressions morality would erode fast.

I also think this is universal. Any other belief is delusional IMHO

Yep. Instead of calling it a 'moral' code, it makes more sense to call it a 'behavioral' code. If you want to live or work comfortably in a community, you need to follow the rules inherent to the community.

You don't do it for some sense of 'doing good', you do it because it's a necessity for survival.
 
The line gets drawn where the collective community you're a part of draws it. When put into certain contexts everything can be moral, but when people start coming after you with pitchforks that's when you have a problem.

I would say endangerment. I think you're aggressively trespassing into others' space by putting anyone in danger and that can be considered immoral.

I don't consider I've done something immoral for speeding. But if I'm in an area where people are in danger of me hurting them, that... not law-breaking, but just the endangerment itself... is immoral.

If you want to phrase in terms of community agreement, then I think most everyone agrees they don't want other people endangering their lives.

I'm not sure how much vocal agreement matters though. I mean in ethics more generally. Some immoral acts are perpetrated by humans against nonhuman lives who can't verbalize an agreement. If humans were to join the community of life this century (better late than never) then we could consider other animal's (maybe ecosystem's) interest in life to be ethically significant.

Time and time again I see conversations about whether or not a certain thing is moral, and I'm always thrown back to the subjectivity of it. Something is moral or immoral if an observer of your behaviour deems it to be so. In Sweden atheism is normal, in Saudi Arabia it could mean death.

If as an individual you have beliefs about what is moral and what is not, fair enough, but those things by definition cannot be universally true.

Moral code is contingent on the subject, it just so happens that because all subjects are a part of the same reality that our rules have a degree of consistency.
 
'people are neither moral nor immoral' is nonsense. We make value judgements all the time. The question for the OP is how you navigate your day.

If you say you are entirely amoral without any awareness of consequences, I believe that is the definition of a sociopath.

As I already explained, accepting certain kinds of conclusions can lead to a cascade of consistently bad decisions, but it's still the decisions that are moral or immoral.
 
Do you see yourself as a moral and ethical person in daily life? If so what guides you and why?

Is lying by word or omission in the work place ok? Taking pens or copy paper? Taking unfair advantage of someone?

I'm Nietzschean. So I'm amoral. I'm good because I want others to think of me as good. I'm dependable because I want others to trust me. I don't lie because it often comes back to bite me.

I believe that if we never would have to answer for our transgressions morality would erode fast.

I also think this is universal. Any other belief is delusional IMHO

Yep. Instead of calling it a 'moral' code, it makes more sense to call it a 'behavioral' code. If you want to live or work comfortably in a community, you need to follow the rules inherent to the community.

You don't do it for some sense of 'doing good', you do it because it's a necessity for survival.

That said, I do do loads of moral actions even when nobody (that matters) is around to watch. Simply because it's good to get in the practice of being good. So that when a time comes when your moral virtues are being judged, you will make the right call. But I still think the root of it is acceptance by the collective.

BTW, true story, a few weeks ago I was walking down a Copenhagen street in front of a big group of Italian tourists. I came across a bicycle that had fallen down. Probably blown down. I stopped to right it and made sure it stood more securely and kept on walking. Behind me the group of Italians had stopped to watch me, and when I was done they started clapping and cheering for me. I guess it's not common for Italians to do things like that.
 
Do you see yourself as a moral and ethical person in daily life? If so what guides you and why?

Is lying by word or omission in the work place ok? Taking pens or copy paper? Taking unfair advantage of someone?

I'm Nietzschean. So I'm amoral. I'm good because I want others to think of me as good. I'm dependable because I want others to trust me. I don't lie because it often comes back to bite me.

I believe that if we never would have to answer for our transgressions morality would erode fast.

I also think this is universal. Any other belief is delusional IMHO

Nietzsche showed that morality must go if we are to embrace and affirm life. What he did not see is that the other option, embracing morality at the expense of life, in defiance of it, is just as valid.

I am convinced that humans are basically unable to be moral, not because of any fatal flaw in our psyche, but just because of the constraints placed on us by life itself. Because we are all in a fast process of decline from the get-go, which we don't like and wish to postpone, we are obliged to make something of the time we have through effort. There is no way to do this without harming others, as a simple consequence of there being not enough space for everyone. My project of postponement will inevitably clash with yours at some point, and it will not do so fairly but gratuitously.

We are all vulnerable to extremes of physical and mental pain that swiftly demolish our moral obligations. Even if they never come to pass, the possibility of such scenarios is a permanent structural component of life, and is sufficient to cheapen our moral aspirations. Regardless of how we conduct ourselves IN life, the fact of our being alive, by itself, places obstacles in the way of morality.

Thus:

phands said:
Yes.

I am a very moral an ethical person.

I care deeply about my fellow humans. I try to give back because I'm relatively privileged. In my case, I teach Maths and Science to kids who are struggling, and build or repair houses for Habitat For Humanity at the weekends.

Your silly, trivial question about filching pens is too trite.

The best that can be achieved through acts like these, like teaching children science and helping the homeless, is a second-degree or secondary morality. By continuing to exist, irrespective of my behavior while existing, I essentially give up on meeting my primary moral duty, which is to put the interests of others before my own. I occupy a space that could benefit someone else, use resources that could be diverted to someone who needs it more, and everything I do to entertain myself imposes onerous costs on the environment. So, I am already in a position of deep disrespect of the interests of others by virtue of my persisting in the world. It is only situated within this primary moral failure that secondary do's and dont's can reside, and we find all the moral systems of civilization in this compromised, deflated space. All of them, with no exceptions I have seen, are only interested in the second-degree questions of "how should I live?" or "how can I be a good parent?", and never radically reflect on the primary concerns of "should I live?" and "should I be a parent?"

Concealing or downplaying the primary concerns, and propping up the second-degree questions as if they were primary, is the enterprise of all societies everywhere on the planet. In this way, the moral distortions on display each day are not surprising--letting some people be hungry so the economy can move forward, designating some people as dispensable so they can be killed to preserve peace between nations, stepping on the rights of your neighbor to score political points--and we should acknowledge that these are not anomalies of "our way of life", as if a different way could finally be authentically moral, but inherent qualities of life.
 
Of the one's I know I've broke, I don't think so.

Agreed, breaking traffic rules is generally not immoral. I've been a motorcyclist for over 45 years, and have frequently done over 185MPH on public roads. That may be quite foolhardy, but it's not immoral.....but what if I got into an accident because of that speed, and killed someone? That feels immoral, but where does the line get drawn?

Actually, the lax enforcement is a problem, and I'm pretty sure it's on purpose.

If the cops habitually fail to give tickets for traffic violations, then everyone gets in the habit of breaking traffic laws.

If everyone is in the habit of breaking certain laws, then the police can target certain individuals or certain groups for harassment and legitimately make the claim that they are enforcing the law. The accused can't complain about the fact that other people are not prosecuted because to do so would be to commit a tu quoque fallacy.

Selective enforcement of the law invites abuse of power by the police.

If you ask me, if most people have a problem with obeying the traffic laws, then we should change the traffic laws. Either we consistently enforce a law for everyone, or else take the damn law off the books.
 
So, Bronzeage, a sage grouse that winds up being food for predators because it camps on the outskirts of Sage Hen town is moral?

No, and neither would you if it were actually the case that morality was a component of fitness which is certainly is not.

Rationality is at the base of most (supply a word that rhymes with duplicity). That rabbit is never going to catch that turtle, hear?/nonsense

[......

Stop this nonsense. Get back to flipping prayer wheels. OK?

This does not make any sense.

Morality and moral codes exist in order to allow human groups to survive in a harsh environment. It works so well, that at this point in time, the environment is threatened by us, most of the time. It is human arrogance which makes us think the purpose of morality is to make us better humans.
 
So, Bronzeage, a sage grouse that winds up being food for predators because it camps on the outskirts of Sage Hen town is moral?

No, and neither would you if it were actually the case that morality was a component of fitness which is certainly is not.

Rationality is at the base of most (supply a word that rhymes with duplicity). That rabbit is never going to catch that turtle, hear?/nonsense

[......

Stop this nonsense. Get back to flipping prayer wheels. OK?

This does not make any sense.

Morality and moral codes exist in order to allow human groups to survive in a harsh environment. It works so well, that at this point in time, the environment is threatened by us, most of the time. It is human arrogance which makes us think the purpose of morality is to make us better humans.

Nice, that sums it up.
 
Ignoring traffic rules is immoral. You put others at risk for your own convenience.

Laws against homosexuality and sodomy have gone away because it can not be shown to be harmful to others. Maybe not all, our civil codes exist to prevent and limit harm, and punish those who do harm.
 
So, Bronzeage, a sage grouse that winds up being food for predators because it camps on the outskirts of Sage Hen town is moral?

No, and neither would you if it were actually the case that morality was a component of fitness which is certainly is not.

Rationality is at the base of most (supply a word that rhymes with duplicity). That rabbit is never going to catch that turtle, hear?/nonsense

[......

Stop this nonsense. Get back to flipping prayer wheels. OK?

This does not make any sense.

Morality and moral codes exist in order to allow human groups to survive in a harsh environment. It works so well, that at this point in time, the environment is threatened by us, most of the time. It is human arrogance which makes us think the purpose of morality is to make us better humans.
Morality has existed for seventy-odd million years longer than human groups have existed. It is human arrogance which makes us think the purpose of morality has anything to do with humans.
 
Ignoring traffic rules is immoral. You put others at risk for your own convenience.

Laws against homosexuality and sodomy have gone away because it can not be shown to be harmful to others. Maybe not all, our civil codes exist to prevent and limit harm, and punish those who do harm.
Laws against homosexuality and sodomy have gone away because they were shown to be discriminatory. Laws against marijuana and obscenity and prostitution and internet poker haven't gone away even though they cannot be shown to be harmful to others. It would be a good idea if our civil codes existed to prevent and limit harm, and punish those who do harm, but that's not the way of the world.
 
Ignoring traffic rules is immoral. You put others at risk for your own convenience.

Laws against homosexuality and sodomy have gone away because it can not be shown to be harmful to others. Maybe not all, our civil codes exist to prevent and limit harm, and punish those who do harm.
Laws against homosexuality and sodomy have gone away because they were shown to be discriminatory. Laws against marijuana and obscenity and prostitution and internet poker haven't gone away even though they cannot be shown to be harmful to others. It would be a good idea if our civil codes existed to prevent and limit harm, and punish those who do harm, but that's not the way of the world.

Laws against gays and also against hetero oral sex went away because there is no evidence of harm to society as a whole.

I used drugs in high school and the 70s. Whether pot and all the other drugs are harnful in the long run IMO is an open question. Drugs including legal ones are creating a dependent society that relies on crutches, IMO. If it were not for a stromn lobby tobacco would be banned. I see the long term efects of it everyday in the facility I am in. Nicotine is highly addictive, people with lung cancer continue to smoke.As to prostituion it is harmful to the worked and society. Drugs and crime that is associated with it. You can argue that legalization eliminates that. Nevad has legal brothels. Women from Ca who work regular jubs spens high paying weekends at the upscale brothels.

If you become addicted to heroin or coke it is not just you that is harmed, it is family and friends. In the long run medical care. In high school in the 60s I knew a kid who used heroin. One night I walked around with him scoring. We went into his place and locked ourseves in the bathroom. I watched him cook and fix. Black scars on brown skin. His eyes rolled and legs wobbled. If you haven't seen it up close you have no fucking clue. He ended up dead in prison.

Legalize all drugs, with the caveat you are on your own. No insurance coverage for drug related problems. I support legal prostitution. Germany at least used to have regulated brothels. No pimps and exploitation, mandatory STD testing. Take awaynthe crime related to prostitution and the sex harms no one.

With imperfect humans we get an imperfect civil law system.
 
Morality and moral codes exist in order to allow human groups to survive in a harsh environment. It works so well, that at this point in time, the environment is threatened by us, most of the time. It is human arrogance which makes us think the purpose of morality is to make us better humans.

Moral codes exist to protect existing status quos more than anything else. IOW moral systems protect existing power systems which tend to fail when conditions change which is not really a definition of fitness. Yes arrogance is extant in individual thinking just as is maximization and proportion estimations are perpetuated forms of statistical error in future estimation. None of them are valid nor serving of fitness nor are they part of natural law.
 
Agreed, breaking traffic rules is generally not immoral. I've been a motorcyclist for over 45 years, and have frequently done over 185MPH on public roads. That may be quite foolhardy, but it's not immoral.....but what if I got into an accident because of that speed, and killed someone? That feels immoral, but where does the line get drawn?

Arguably, somewhere closer to the legal speed limit. :)
 
BTW, true story, a few weeks ago I was walking down a Copenhagen street in front of a big group of Italian tourists. I came across a bicycle that had fallen down. Probably blown down. I stopped to right it and made sure it stood more securely and kept on walking. Behind me the group of Italians had stopped to watch me, and when I was done they started clapping and cheering for me. I guess it's not common for Italians to do things like that.

You did well. Your personal sense of self worth and the reputation of Scandinavians in general were enhanced by, it seems, your noticing beforehand that the tourists were behind you.


I'm not being particularly sardonic. I tend to agree with your pov on morality, by and large. I often quote Mencken on this. He said, 'when people say we need god, they usually mean we need the police'. It doesn't hit the nail on the head precisely, but it's related, I think.

- - - Updated - - -

Morality has existed for seventy-odd million years longer than human groups have existed. It is human arrogance which makes us think the purpose of morality has anything to do with humans.

I think I know what you're trying to say. But it is possible to say instead (or as well) that morality did not exist before humans and that as such it IS to do with humans.
 
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