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Noah and the flood

I have to shine the spotlight on your dishonesty whenever I can.

It’s not dishonesty to say you don’t know.
But it is most certainly dishonest (bad faith) to accuse someone of dishonesty then expecti them to continue the discussion as if you have some (fake) intention of taking them at their word.
 
I would take you at your word if you tell me when you believed it happened. I wouldn't necessarily agree that it happened then, but I would accept it as an honest guess. I would attempt to disprove it. If you consider that to be bad faith, then you really need to reexamine your beliefs.

But there is nothing wrong with suspecting someone who makes a claim and then refuses to provide any details. That is normal.

It is also normal to have at least an idea of when something happened, if you think that it did happen. I can think of nothing that I think happened, that I couldn't at least provide some vague notion of when it happened. Do I know exactly when the Big Bang happened? Certainly not. Could I provide you with the ballpark figure estimated by scientists? Yes. Do I remember the exact dates that the T'ang Dynasty was founded and ended? No. But I know which dynasties preceded and followed it, and which time period in Europe it was contemporary with.

Having a notion of when an event happened is fundamental. To reject this idea, as you do by stating you have 'no opinion' as to when it happened, is ludicrous. Events have causes and effects. To be indifferent to when it may have happened is to reject the reality of the event and its causes and effects. Events are linked together by these causes and effects, producing a timeline. By disconnecting these events from the timeline, you are essentially admitting they are mythological.

I think you know that the flood didn't happen, and that the tower didn't happen. I think that because you reject any attempt to put them on the timeline, where their causes and effects could be linked to (or more likely, would contradict) known history. You make these claims, not because you think they actually happened, but because your religion requires it of you, and you value that more than you value a strict commitment to the truth.
 
If all surface life was killed in the flood leaving only Noah and company, then every huann group existing today must have come from Noah.
Blacks, whites, asians and so on.
Must not forget Noah's sons' wives.
Further in the time scale from the alleged time of the flood to the rise of advanced cultures like Egypt and China children would have to be changing generation by generation. It would have to be observable by parents.
It's even worse with non-human animals if we subscribe to AiG's "a kind is roughly a family except for Hominidae" model. For example, all the 36 species of the "dog kind" (i.e. family Canidae) must have evolved rapidly from a single breeding pair of antediluvian dog.

How did diversity in humans come about starting with Adam and Eve followed by the Noah bottleneck?
Rapid evolution. Seriously.

Hey wife, how come baby has slanted eyes?

One of Noah's sons' wives must have been Chinese, obviously.
 
Laughing at those who believe in a literal Flood and Ark has been popular for quite a while.
aig-noah.jpg
5b9dd843987641d3c1d59b44f4be147a.jpg
dinosaur-ark.jpg
science-dinosaurs-extinct-mass_extinction-meteor-meteorite-cman427_low.jpg
ark-dinosaurs.jpg

But my favorite one is long gone from the internet. Back in the golden days of Internet Infidels, there was the 'Photoshop' thread. One of the images posted there was of a cartoon ark in bright sunshine, full of smiling animals; but under the surface of the water, dimly seen, was an image of a pit full of bodies, originally taken at one of the Nazi extermination camps.
 
But my favorite one is long gone from the internet. Back in the golden days of Internet Infidels, there was the 'Photoshop' thread. One of the images posted there was of a cartoon ark in bright sunshine, full of smiling animals; but under the surface of the water, dimly seen, was an image of a pit full of bodies, originally taken at one of the Nazi extermination camps.

But the Holy Book of Genocide makes that look like a pool party.
 
That is another biblical time line problem, denizens of the oceans.

If humans coexisted with dinos and other prehumen sea creatures it would be pretty risking venturing out fishing. From the archeological and fossil evidence humans were more likely to be prey than hunters and fishers.
 
Noah’s family (all heterosexuals BTW) .
I dunno if that's true.

Noah got really, really upset that Ham saw him in the tent. Really lost his shit, not out of embarrassment at being sloppy drunk from day drinking, but from his son seeing him naked.
Cursed, NOT the guy that saw him naked, but Ham's son. Ham's fourth son, to be exact.

I always found that suspicious. Not the guy that saw his nakedidity, or the first three sons...

I wonder if Ham was gay? Or at least bi?

Because Noah's reaction reminds me a LOT of the way many modern sailors behave when you suggest that at least one in every ten men on the crew are probably gay, so it's a mathematical certainty that a gay man has seen them naked in the shower. For all that they joke about being gay, the possibility makes them lose their shit.

And if he was gay, that would explain Noah cursing his grandson. Because Noah had three sons, Ham had four. Which would make him, by the standards of many cultures, more manly than Noah. So the Curse of Ham would be jealousy on Noah's part, with extra anger for the manliness of the gay son.
 
Noah’s family (all heterosexuals BTW) spread out and went their separate ways continuing on to live God’s blessing to be fruitful and populate the Earth. And as descendants of Adam, they likely shared his skin pigmentation.
Adam (אדם) literally means "red", and there is an etymological connection between adam and adamah, adamah designating "red clay" or "red ground" in a non-theological context
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamah

This initial skin pigmentation would be a useful starting point for subsequent variation in skin colour as Ham, Shem and Japheths descendents spread out around the world living in different climates.

This is nonsense. A population of a handful of individuals would not been able to populate the different parts of the world in a matter of a few hundred years, or evolve the very diverse characteristics and cultures we observe across our species today. Even if they managed that using magic, the effects of this bottleneck would have been obvious in our genes. And I'm not even going to get into all the reasons why the Noah flood story is considered impossible.

Most Christians are not looking for answers when they read the Bible, they are simply reinforcing their belief in a mythical god invented by our Bronze Age ancestors. So reason and skeptical thinking don't come into play; you simply believe what you read. Free your mind, and stop being a slave to the superstitions of our ancestors. If you believe your god gave you a brain, you owe him at least the courtesy of using it once in a while.
 
I don't claim a population of a handful of individuals populated the different parts of the world in a matter of a few hundred years and I don't think the bible says so either.
 
So how long did it take?

Before you said you didn't know, and didn't have an opinion.

Now you say it was more than a matter of a few hundred years. So it seems you know something, and do have an opinion.
 
I don't claim a population of a handful of individuals populated the different parts of the world in a matter of a few hundred years and I don't think the bible says so either.

So what are you saying? You have had the opportunity to explain your position several times that I know of and you have always dodged the question. How old is our planet, and how long has it been inhabited by humans and other living organisms? Do you really believe in the Biblical flood, and if yes, how do you explain away the complete lack of evidence for this claim? Why won't you answer these questions?

Science tells us that modern humans have been around for about 200,000 years. Our ancestors have left a record of their existence and their evolving brains in cave paintings dating back tens of thousands of years, and more recently, through the written word starting about 10,000 years ago. There are records of human civilization spread out across the globe, from China and India to the New World that go back to that period. How come none of these people ever noticed that the planet had been covered by nearly 30,000 feet of water? And how did these civilizations all simultaneously get wiped out and then recover immediately and continue on as if nothing had happened, cultures and languages still intact? The Egyptians were building pyramids and magnificent temples for their kings and their gods 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, just hundreds of years after the great flood. Where did these people come from? Why is there no evidence of a flood of this gargantuan magnitude in the geological record? How did the handful of humans and pairs of animals that were saved from the flood survive and propagate out across the planet, and why do these extreme bottlenecks not show up in any of their genomes?

The only rational answer is that the story of the Biblical flood is not true. And so this takes us back to the Bible and its writings; how do you place any credibility in its claims of a supernatural creator god when so many of its important claims are so obviously wrong? How much do you have to twist the lens and distort the facts to try to make the Biblical claims fit reality? How much do you have to distort the lens to justify to yourself that the god described in the Bible loves its creation, when it is apparently willing to curse its own children and all their descendants to disease and death, and commit planet-wide genocide by drowning pretty much every living thing on the planet in a fit of rage? Just because some people were misbehaving. Is this god worthy of your adoration?

We humans may be imperfect but most of us show more kindness to our pets and even wild animals than your god does to humans. And you come in here frequently to lecture us on the morality of abortions, when you worship a god that exterminates all life on the planet at one stroke, and will torture you for eternity if you don't accept his "friend invite", or did not get its invite because you were born in the wrong place or at the wrong time. How fucked up is that?
 
So how long did it take?

Before you said you didn't know, and didn't have an opinion.

That's right. That's still my position.

Now you say it was more than a matter of a few hundred years. So it seems you know something, and do have an opinion.

What part of "I don't claim..." are you struggling to comprehend?
 
Denying a claim can be said to be equivalent to making a claim. Since you vehemently objecting to the idea that it was only a few centuries, you imply that it was longer. Now are you going back to saying it could have been only a few centuries, or it could have been longer? You know quite well that it would have taken longer than a few centuries. Any reasonable person could conclude that. Your behavior is entirely consistent. You know the flood is mythological, and that it therefore didn't happen at any particular time, it is just a story, that happened 'once upon a time.' But you refuse to admit it. Taking a lawyer's attitude towards facts, neither confirming nor denying might keep you from being pinned down to a position, but does nothing to conceal the intent behind it.

I still maintain that asking 'when' is always a fair question. I consider claiming that an event happened 'without having an opinion' as to when is fundamentally dishonest. If it happened, it happened at a particular time. This is not an irrelevant detail, like what color Noah's smock was. When talking about an event, the when is almost as important as the what.
 
Let the believers have their tale. Let them embrace it. In essence, it's unassailable. When a story has so many elements of magic, fantasy, and legend, it really can't be dissected and made rational. 600 year old man...collecting all the species...food and board...didn't the people "left behind" and so evil that even their infants deserved a drowning death -- didn't any of those folks have boats and fishing lines? Sheesh. None of those objections matter to the inerrantists. If someone reads that and considers that it's historic, fine -- no discussion will bridge the gap between that someone and those of us who read it as an old tale. This is like the Shroud, isn't it?
 
If they would stop trying to force their myth into the schools, and financing their myth-fraud parks with taxpayer money, I would heartily agree with your proposal.
 
Yasss. Good point. But it's still impossible to apply logic to Ark yarns. It's like rainfall hitting the back of a duck. But you're right about the church/state craziness. That's why I support the ffrf legal team.
 
So how long did it take?

Before you said you didn't know, and didn't have an opinion.

That's right. That's still my position.

Now you say it was more than a matter of a few hundred years. So it seems you know something, and do have an opinion.

What part of "I don't claim..." are you struggling to comprehend?

If you don't know anything about anything, why are you making claims like this?

Noah’s family (all heterosexuals BTW) spread out and went their separate ways continuing on to live God’s blessing to be fruitful and populate the Earth. And as descendants of Adam, they likely shared his skin pigmentation.

This initial skin pigmentation would be a useful starting point for subsequent variation in skin colour as Ham, Shem and Japheths descendents spread out around the world living in different climates.

How do you know any of this? And how do you justify claims like this when the evidence tells us there was no Biblical flood?
 
Yup, he knows that Noah's family were heterosexuals, but he doesn't know when they lived!

I can't think of anyone I know of like that. I can think of plenty of people I know when they lived, but not their orientation.
 
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