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Will Saudi Arabia Go Kaput?

lpetrich

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Is Saudi Arabia the Middle East’s Next Failed State? – Consortiumnews Author Daniel Lazare:
Reports are growing that Muhammad bin Salman, Saudi Arabia’s hyperactive crown prince, is losing his grip. His economic reform program has stalled since his father, King Salman, nixed plans to privatize 5 percent of Saudi Aramco. The Saudi war in Yemen, which the prince launched in March 2015, is more of a quagmire than ever while the kingdom’s sword rattling with Iran is making the region increasingly jumpy.

Heavy gunfire in Riyadh last April sparked rumors that MBS, as he’s known, had been killed in a palace coup. In May, an exiled Saudi prince urged top members of the royal family to oust him and put an end to his “irrational, erratic, and stupid” rule. Recently, Bruce Riedel, an ex-CIA analyst who heads up the Brookings Institution’s Intelligence Project, reported that the prince is so afraid for his life that he’s taken to spending nights on his yacht in the Red Sea port of Jeddah.
He then discusses the work of Abū Zayd ‘Abd ar-Raḥmān ibn Muḥammad ibn Khaldūn al-Ḥaḍramī (1332 - 1406), usually known as Ibn Khaldun. He was born in Tunis, and he lived in various places on the North African coast and in Spain over his life. He was notable for his writings on history, work that included some pioneering sociology.

From his experience in North Africa, he proposed a cyclic theory of history. It starts with some desert nomads conquering city people. But the conquerors become fat and lazy and they end up becoming conquered by some other desert nomads. IK himself:
[T]he life of a dynasty does not as a rule extend beyond three generations. The first generation retains the desert qualities, desert toughness, and desert strategy. … They are sharp and greatly feared. People submit to them. … [T]he second generation changes from the desert attitude to sedentary culture, from privation to luxury and plenty, from a state in which everybody shared in the glory to one in which one man claims all the glory for himself while the others are too lazy to strive for glory. … The third generation … has completely forgotten the period of desert life and toughness, as if it never existed…. Luxury reaches its peak among them, because they are so much given to a life of prosperity and ease.
DL: "It’s a recurrent cycle that has held true for a remarkable number of Muslim dynasties from the seventh century on."

He then argues that Saudi Arabia fits very well. The nation's founder, Abdulaziz ibn Saud, was a good fit for Ibn Khaldun's profile of an energetic desert warrior. But he was succeeded by six of his sons, and they were not so great. Saud, Faisal, Khalid, Fahd, Abdullah, and now Salman. About Salman's son MBS,
MBS, who all but took over the throne in 2015, meanwhile personifies all the foolishness and decadence that Ibn Khaldun attributed to the third generation. He’s more energetic than his father. But as one would expect of someone who has spent his entire life cosseted amid fantastic wealth, he’s headstrong, impractical, and immature.
MBS was made Secretary of Defense when he was only 29, and two months later, he attacked Yemen and then ran off to a luxury vacation in the Maldive islands in the Indian Ocean. His American counterpart was unable to reach him for several days. The next year, he came out with Vision 2030, an ambitious plan to diversify the nation's economy, reduce the power of the Wahhabi religious leaders, and reduce the nation's dependence on oil revenues and foreigners' labor.

But many Saudi young men prefer to wait some years for a cushy government sinecure rather than be employed by some business and have less status. Much like MBS himself: "He preaches austerity and hard work, yet plunked down $500 million for his yacht, $450 million for a painting by Leonardo da Vinci, and $300 million for a French chateau. The hypocrisy is so thick that it’s almost as if he wants to be overthrown." MBS is also guilty of such nastiness as locking up some big number of princes and businessmen in the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton and making them turn over billions of dollars in assets.


DL then addresses the question of who is the biggest threat to the Saudi regime. Someone like Ibn Saud himself, someone who made an alliance with the Wahhabi clerics as part of taking over. Nowadays, that would be Al Qaeda and the Islamic State. "Both are fierce, warlike, and pious, both inveigh against a Saudi regime drowning in corruption, and both would like nothing more than to parade about with the crown prince’s head on a pike." Indeed, lots of Saudis have fought in those two groups, and some rich Saudis have financed them. So if lots of AQ and IS members return home, that could be great trouble for the Saudi regime.

DL then asks "Could Saudi Arabia become the Middle East’s next failed state?"

Saudi Arabia survived the Arab Spring with some strife in Al Qatif and other Shiite areas, but not much more. But could something be worse for it? Like a split in the nation's huge royal family? In my story "Contact across the Solar System", Saudi Arabia splits up in a very ugly civil war.
 
While it would be nice to have the Saudi government toppled and everyone involved with it get shot in the head, I can't see any alternative government being any better. At best, you'd basically have Al Quaeda in charge and at worst it would just devolve into a constantly warring quagmire and both would impact oil shipments.
 
Possible.
When Ghawar enters a steep decline (and it could be soon, within next 2-3 years), Saudi Aramco really has nothing to compensate and maintain current production, much less act as a "swing producer". Oil was the commodity that made Saudi Arabia, and its decline could unmade it.
 
While it would be nice to have the Saudi government toppled and everyone involved with it get shot in the head, I can't see any alternative government being any better. At best, you'd basically have Al Quaeda in charge and at worst it would just devolve into a constantly warring quagmire and both would impact oil shipments.

Agreed. This Regime Change thing doesn't tend to work very well. It's possible that the devil we don't know is worse.
 
I've always viewed Saudi Arabia as a quasi country anyway. Really it was a region that was ring fenced for oil production with the Sauds put in as guards/keepers of the area with the West acting as the muscle to keep it in place. I had no idea the population had grown to 34 million. That's going to be a problem when it does eventually collapse. They can't simply pack up their tents and go back to the desert. The top boys will make their escape to Monaco or similar.
 
Since when are fundamentalist dictatorships that don't respect the rights of women successes?

Saudi Arabia is a failed state now in terms of human freedom and dignity.
 
While it would be nice to have the Saudi government toppled and everyone involved with it get shot in the head, I can't see any alternative government being any better. At best, you'd basically have Al Quaeda in charge and at worst it would just devolve into a constantly warring quagmire and both would impact oil shipments.

Agreed. This Regime Change thing doesn't tend to work very well. It's possible that the devil we don't know is worse.

Over there the devil we "don't know" is Islamic extremism, always worse than the current dictators. The Islamists are very good at seizing power if the current governments that have been keeping them in check fail.

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Since when are fundamentalist dictatorships that don't respect the rights of women successes?

Saudi Arabia is a failed state now in terms of human freedom and dignity.

But the alternative would be a state that's even worse about human freedom and dignity, and is spending a bunch of that oil money on terrorism.
 
Over there the devil we "don't know" is Islamic extremism, always worse than the current dictators. The Islamists are very good at seizing power if the current governments that have been keeping them in check fail.

I agree. As far as we know it's just the current government or the Islamists. There may be other bad choices that the general public isn't aware of.
 
Since when are fundamentalist dictatorships that don't respect the rights of women successes?

Saudi Arabia is a failed state now in terms of human freedom and dignity.

But the alternative would be a state that's even worse about human freedom and dignity, and is spending a bunch of that oil money on terrorism.

There is no evidence at all to support that bigoted opinion Archie Bunker.

The reason the dictatorship was founded was so Britain could maintain some control of the oil.

The reason it has continued is because the dictators have looked after British and US interests.

That is why there is a dictatorship in Saudi Arabia.

And the dictatorship has polluted the population with fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is not something that grew naturally.

It could be gone in a generation.
 
The reason the dictatorship was founded was so Britain could maintain some control of the oil.
The Emirate of Diriyah, ruled by members of the al Saud family, controlled most of modern Saudi Arabia in the 18th century but that first Saudi state was destroyed in the early 19th century by Ottoman Turks.
Ibn Saud started his (re)conquest in 1908. He finished and founded the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932. Oil was not found until 1938.

So reality is quite a bit more complex than your simplistic fantasy.

The reason it has continued is because the dictators have looked after British and US interests.
That is why there is a dictatorship in Saudi Arabia.
That's why that particular family continues to rule, yes. But given the attitudes of the Saudi population, it is inevitable that the place be run by some flavor of Islamist dictatorship.

And the dictatorship has polluted the population with fundamentalism.
The Arabian peninsula has been fundamentalist for a long time. It's not something concocted by Ibn Saud to please the British. If you want to blame any member of the family, blame Mohammed bin Saud who made that pact with the fundamentalist cleric Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, but even that is not the beginning of Arabian fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is not something that grew naturally.It could be gone in a generation.
Highly unlikely. And if it were to happen, MBS's reforms are a slow move in a less fundamentalist direction. A collapse of the Saudi state would likely lead to even more fundamentalism, not less.
 
The oil will flow no matter who runs it, so long as the place isn't in complete chaos. Iraq pumped oil during Saddam and post Saddam. Iran pumped pre revolution and post. We have authoratarian countries like China and Russia pumping. We have democracies like Norway and US pumping. Who controls the country and the type of government is of little importance. It is in everyone's interest that the oil continue to flow.

To claim oil is the reason why the current authoritarian dictatorship must remain in power is naive.
 
The oil will flow no matter who runs it, so long as the place isn't in complete chaos. Iraq pumped oil during Saddam and post Saddam. Iran pumped pre revolution and post. We have authoratarian countries like China and Russia pumping. We have democracies like Norway and US pumping. Who controls the country and the type of government is of little importance. It is in everyone's interest that the oil continue to flow.

To claim oil is the reason why the current authoritarian dictatorship must remain in power is naive.

I think the argument is that the transition in governance will discombobulate production enough to inflict economic difficulties world-wide.
 
The oil will flow no matter who runs it, so long as the place isn't in complete chaos. Iraq pumped oil during Saddam and post Saddam. Iran pumped pre revolution and post. We have authoratarian countries like China and Russia pumping. We have democracies like Norway and US pumping. Who controls the country and the type of government is of little importance. It is in everyone's interest that the oil continue to flow.

To claim oil is the reason why the current authoritarian dictatorship must remain in power is naive.

Insanity.

Britain and the US could have worked towards the establishment of a democracy in Saudi Arabia. They could have refused to support the dictatorship that some call as if it makes a difference "the family". It is a family like the Corleone family.
 
The oil will flow no matter who runs it, so long as the place isn't in complete chaos. ...
I think the argument is that the transition in governance will discombobulate production enough to inflict economic difficulties world-wide.
That has indeed happened. The Iranian revolution caused the oil shock of 1979, and Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait caused the oil shock of 1990. So Saudi Arabia suffering major turmoil could well do something similar.
 
I had no idea the population had grown to 34 million. That's going to be a problem when it does eventually collapse.
It's actually worse than numbers say, because this growth is very recent and most of the people are young. So number of people at reproductive age corresponds to much larger population than 34 millions. All these people would have to move somewhere once oil is gone
 
The oil will flow no matter who runs it, so long as the place isn't in complete chaos.
Probably. But any likely transition itself will involve chaos, at least for a while. And KSA is the world's largest producer so any production disruption would wreak havoc on world markets.
Note also Venezuela. Their oil production is significantly down in recent years due to Boligarch mismanagement.
To claim oil is the reason why the current authoritarian dictatorship must remain in power is naive.

Do you think any likely alternate regime would be less authoritarian or less dictatorial?

However, I am more concerned with KSA regime falling when oil production goes down, which will eventually come. That's why MBS is so eager to diversify KSA's economy. He knows the oil gravy train will not last forever, and that the Saudi regime will not survive if it does not hold up its end of the implied social contract. KSA spends a lot of money on subsidizing all sorts of things for the citizens of the kingdom. They get relative peace and quiet in return - remember that the Arab Spring largely bypassed Saudi Arabia.
 
Insanity.
No, t's SpartaRealpolitik.

Britain and the US could have worked towards the establishment of a democracy in Saudi Arabia.
What use is democracy when the fundamentalists are guaranteed to win?
In the last elections in the Palestinian territories, Hamas won decisively. They are not only fundamentalist, but also terrorists.
Or take Egypt. They had free elections and elected Morsi, a Muslim Brotherhood fundamentalist, who had to be removed in a coup by El Sisi.

They could have refused to support the dictatorship that some call as if it makes a difference "the family".
And they would have run to the Kremlin for support. Remember that at the time the Cold War was just starting.

It is a family like the Corleone family.

With less pizzazz.
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And I guess King Faisal was Fredo or something.
 
That has indeed happened. The Iranian revolution caused the oil shock of 1979, and Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait caused the oil shock of 1990. So Saudi Arabia suffering major turmoil could well do something similar.
And Fredo, I mean Faisal, cut off oil exports to US in 1973/74 because of US support for Israel in the Yom Kippur war.
Besides turmoil, that is also a danger if fundamentalists even wore than the current rulers take power and decide to use the oil sword to push their agenda through. At least the Saudi Royal family are hypocrites. You can work with those. True believers are much more difficult to placate.
 
When Britain turned Saudi Arabia into a colony with a facade monarchy (dictatorship) there was no fear of the Soviet Union doing anything.

It is delusion to say the US can't support democracies.

But you can't control a real democracy externally.

For that a dictatorship is needed.

Which is why we have seen the US support so many dictatorships. The US government has no love of democracy.

That is why it supports dictatorships like the one in Saudi Arabia.
 
It's actually worse than numbers say, because this growth is very recent and most of the people are young. So number of people at reproductive age corresponds to much larger population than 34 millions.

The biggest population growth (>60% per decade) occurred in the 70s and 80s. It has slowed down since, such that the total fertility rate is mere 2.09, much less than some Islamic societies like Palestinians, Somalia, Afghanistan or Rohingyas (formerly) of Burma.

All these people would have to move somewhere once oil is gone
As long as Merkel is still chancellor, they will just be invited to come to Germoney...
 
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