What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?

[Jolly_Penguin]

Would you not feel responsible (not directly responsible of course) if your child committed a crime?

If I raised them then yes I would. If I never knew they existed (ie, the mother never told me) and only found out after they did what they did, then no. Not even slightly would I feel responsible. Likewise, merely being the same race or gender as someone would absolutely not make me feel whatsoever responsible for them more than anybody who isn't that race or gender.

I guess what I'm trying to say that I feel my level of responsibility increases in direct ratio to my ability to influence.

I think that should motivate you. I don't think the rest of us have any right to hold you to it more than we'd hold anybody else to it. We are all equally responsible, unless we take on responsibility willingly or have had a hand in creating the problem.

Therefore, to make a long winded answer, I feel that as men we do have some influence over how men in general treat women. We can take some responsibility for it, but it's a decreasing amount.

I see what you are saying and agree to some extent. But I don't think men have the grand influence over other men that the feminists presume (not saying that you hold that view).

 

[Jarhyn]

If I raised them then yes I would. If I never knew they existed (ie, the mother never told me) and only found out after they did what they did, then no. Not even slightly would I feel responsible. Likewise, merely being the same race or gender as someone would absolutely not make me feel whatsoever responsible for them more than anybody who isn't that race or gender.



I think that should motivate you. I don't think the rest of us have any right to hold you to it more than we'd hold anybody else to it. We are all equally responsible, unless we take on responsibility willingly or have had a hand in creating the problem.

Therefore, to make a long winded answer, I feel that as men we do have some influence over how men in general treat women. We can take some responsibility for it, but it's a decreasing amount.

I see what you are saying and agree to some extent. But I don't think men have the grand influence over other men that the feminists presume (not saying that you hold that view).

Feminists don't think men have "grand influence", but more, the tide feminists any men to help stop among men is done by taking SMALL actions in an unyielding fashion every day. Hear someone talking casually about violating, shaming, or hurting women? Say that shit isn't cool, and isn't manly, it's cowardly and craven. That's it. Exert the influence you have.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I've stated several times that I believe the question about muslims is an off topic, non-sequitur and a red herring. I've invited people to start threads about muslims and terrorism if that's of interest to them and I've made zero promises about whether I will find such a thread to be interesting enough to read or participate in.

And what you haven't done is simply say "Yeah, Muslims should too." and move on. Instead you run in circles and make long posts so you don't have to say those 4 words. It isn't a loaded question. It isn't a hard question. It is a general principle question extrapolated from something you yourself wrote. Yet you dodge.

 

[ruby sparks]

Oh bollocks. I did it again. I edited without noticing that there had been subsequent posts to mine.

Jahryn, if you reply to mine, just note that I added to it. Whoops.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hear someone talking casually about violating, shaming, or hurting women? Say that shit isn't cool, and isn't manly, it's cowardly and craven. That's it. Exert the influence you have.

I do. And we all should, including women. We all have a responsibility to do so.

 

[Toni]

I've stated several times that I believe the question about muslims is an off topic, non-sequitur and a red herring. I've invited people to start threads about muslims and terrorism if that's of interest to them and I've made zero promises about whether I will find such a thread to be interesting enough to read or participate in.

And what you haven't done is simply say "Yeah, Muslims should too." and move on. Instead you run in circles and make long posts so you don't have to say those 4 words. It isn't a loaded question. It isn't a hard question. It is a general principle question extrapolated from something you yourself wrote. Yet you dodge.

This thread is not about what I think or anybody thinks that Muslims should or should not do.

As has been pointed out many, many times, by more people than just me.

I am responding to what is actually pertinent to this thread.

Along those lines, I will say that there are a number of men posting in this thread who seem to believe that attempting to force me to participate in a discussion that is extraneous to the subject of this thread is somehow central to their manhood.

I'm sorry for those men. Not because I won't dignify their inane insistence but because they seem to feel so insecure that they must continue to attempt to force me to do something I have no desire to do.

That sounds so terribly familiar somehow.

Here's the thing: it didn't work when I was a kid or a high school student or during college or after and it ain't gonna work now.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Well, it could be but let's just play safe and say it would need an explanation. There might be one. And there might indeed be a valid and understandable one. Who knows? It would be worth exploring.

This is fair and important. But Jarhyn has more than given ample opportunity for Toni to explain. She refuses to and lashes out. I would understand that if the question was loaded or if we were all insisting on presuming or projecting a view onto her regarding this, but we're not. If she says no, then it is no. If yes, then yes. That's a courtesy extended to her that she doesn't extend to others often.

And in any event, Toni wasn't and shouldn't have become the topic here. Even if she gives a clear answer and it is a consistent answer, there are plenty of others who DO subscribe to the double standard that Loren pointed out here.

Which then imo still leaves an interesting question about why the apparent difference in expectations?

I think the answer is rather simple and obvious. It comes from a noble impulse; standing up for the oppressed and against the oppressor. It fails so dramatically because it is mixed with identity politics and men in general are viewed as the oppressor and women in general as the oppressed, but it is the opposite for Muslims. They are seen as brown and foreign (which is a mistake but true nonetheless) and therefore as victims by the left and villains to the right (both are mistakes).

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

... is extraneous to the subject of this thread is somehow central to their manhood.

You are gendering things again and again trying to hide behind your skirt. It has nothing to do with you being a woman. It has to do with you being evasive.

 

[Jarhyn]

Hear someone talking casually about violating, shaming, or hurting women? Say that shit isn't cool, and isn't manly, it's cowardly and craven. That's it. Exert the influence you have.

I do. And we all should, including women. We all have a responsibility to do so.

Aye, and my position as a part of the general case is one of access. It's a trivial matter to accept that members of ANY given class derived from cultural association will have greater access to the inside of said culture than non-members, which itself translates to an outsized burden (as compared to that of outsiders) to do so. And if you happen to have some influence, you have an obligation to throw in the "this isn't what being a man is about" speech every once in a while. If you do that enough, often enough things will change, and those persons who are problematic will hopefully be pushed by this small but ubiquitous pressure by those who say NO, and those who still value community with "male culture" to not be shitty to women. It means talking to your son before he is a teen telling all in the locker room.

Also, because I just saw it and felt it amazing, you should watch Big Mouth season 2 on Netflix. It's amazing and relevant.

 

[Toni]

... is extraneous to the subject of this thread is somehow central to their manhood.

You are gendering things again and again trying to hide behind your skirt. It has nothing to do with you being a woman. It has to do with you being evasive.

Please read the title of this thread. It is about gender and men and what men think it means to be a man.

I did not choose the title.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

... is extraneous to the subject of this thread is somehow central to their manhood.

You are gendering things again and again trying to hide behind your skirt. It has nothing to do with you being a woman. It has to do with you being evasive.

Please read the title of this thread. It is about gender and men and what men think it means to be a man.

I did not choose the title.

The title has nothing to do with you being evasive and people calling you on it.

 

[Toni]

Please read the title of this thread. It is about gender and men and what men think it means to be a man.

I did not choose the title.

The title has nothing to do with you being evasive and people calling you on it.

The title--and the subject--are what we are supposed to be discussing in this thread.

If you wish to make another thread about something else, please do so.

I will ignore your irrational derails and demands that I submit to whatever questioning you think you have a right to demand.

You don't have the right to demand anything from me. You continue to derail the thread. You continue to personally attack me.

We all see you. Very clearly.

 

[Jarhyn]

... is extraneous to the subject of this thread is somehow central to their manhood.

You are gendering things again and again trying to hide behind your skirt. It has nothing to do with you being a woman. It has to do with you being evasive.

Please read the title of this thread. It is about gender and men and what men think it means to be a man.

I did not choose the title.

No, you didn't. But I also don't see you claiming in here to be a man, yet here we are. I didn't choose the title either. Then again, as I said before, I'm on the fence on whether I want to be considered a 'man' myself. At any rate, we are, in fact, talking about what we think it means to be a man, namely a responsibility to help (re)shape that group boundary.

 

[Jarhyn]

Please read the title of this thread. It is about gender and men and what men think it means to be a man.

I did not choose the title.

The title has nothing to do with you being evasive and people calling you on it.

The title--and the subject--are what we are supposed to be discussing in this thread.

If you wish to make another thread about something else, please do so.

I will ignore your irrational derails and demands that I submit to whatever questioning you think you have a right to demand.

You don't have the right to demand anything from me. You continue to derail the thread. You continue to personally attack me.

We all see you. Very clearly.

Thing is, we're talking about claims you made about what it means to be a man... and their corollaries. If you don't like the corollaries, don't make the claims. You say men have a responsibility to do X, we say that the corollary of making that claim are re remaining implementations of the general case WRT Islam. we have been having an alright conversation and even making some dialogue with JP about the responsibilities he accepts with regards to intervention and shaping culture as is possible or accessible. It was brought about by a discussion of the general case after identification of the parallel specific cases. Cry and moan "derail" all you want.

All you would have to do to end the mockery of your (according to the thread title inappropriate participation is to make some stand on the general case. But no, you dance and feign indignancy, and refuse to talk about your principles, even though you foist those principles on others.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have pretty consistently been anti violence, and have stated my pacifist POV (and hereby acknowledging that for some, arguing is against pacifism but for me, it is not) many times.

In fact, in this thread, I have said that men should reject violence multiple times. Terrorism is generally violent. Virtually all terrorism is committed by males. Virtually all terrorism by Muslims is committed by males.

I do not understand how it is that men continue to cling to the stance that they are logical and women are emotional when you all lose your shit over me ignoring non sequiturs and trying to tell me that I am not being consistent. And claiming I have some radical leftist posting history yet being quite ignorant of my actual posting history. I'm actually quite consistent. I'm actually also trying to keep this thread on topic.

And once again a long detour rather than simply asking Muslims to condem Islamist terrorism. You sound like a politician.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

WHO GIVES A SHIT? It’s pure whataboutism.

I think that all humanity should always do all things always.

There, is everyone fucking happy now? Totally pointless derail.

The thing is "Men should denounce rapists" is a subclass of "People should denounce very bad behavior done by members of their group."

Why is the former proper and the latter improper?

 

[laughing dog]

... is extraneous to the subject of this thread is somehow central to their manhood.

You are gendering things again and again trying to hide behind your skirt. It has nothing to do with you being a woman. It has to do with you being evasive.

You clearly protest too much. No one was hiding behind any skirt - your comments indicate that it reasonable to conclude your bullying is driven, in part, by her gender.

Please read the title of this thread. It is about gender and men and what men think it means to be a man.

I did not choose the title.

The title has nothing to do with you being evasive and people calling you on it.

Why do you feel the need to do this bullying over some irrelevant and stupid straw man?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I made a statement to help others see how their views that "muslims have an obligation..." induct to "men have an obligation...".

I see it too, and I'm on the flipside of the answer. I don't think either have a special obligation to "police their own" or to speak out against those who share their characteristics who do bad things. I think we all have equal responsibility for that whether we share characteristics or not. I don't hold a random peaceful muslim more responsible than myself for denouncing Islamic terrorism. I can see why they would want to, to distinguish themselves and save themselves from the ire directed at the Islamic Terrorists. I can also see why well behaved men would especially want to denounce men who misbehave and distinguish themselves. #notallmuslims #notallmen. It is the toxicity of identity politics.

Indeed. All it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing. And yes, I single out shitbag males precisely because they make decent guys like me struggle all the more against an unfair stereotype. But I will also criticize shitbag Muslim terrorists, shitbag abusive mothers, and shitbag atheists.

I think the question of why the principle shouldn't be generalized is a fair question. And I think you give a good answer to it here.

 

[laughing dog]

nm

 

[laughing dog]

At any rate, we are, in fact, talking about what we think it means to be a man, namely a responsibility to help (re)shape that group boundary.

Then why are you banging on about Islam and denouncing terrorism? Why is it so important for you and JP to get someone to answer some derail about Islam and denouncing terrorism?