Nazis are having a rally in Arkansas

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Socialism IS collective ownership of the means of production.

UHC. It means different things to different people, there are different plans existing that all of which are called UHC. Which version of UCH are you referring to? Some of them might be socialist, some of them might not be, depends on the details.

 

[Angry Floof]

Socialism IS collective ownership of the means of production.

UHC. It means different things to different people, there are different plans existing that all of which are called UHC. Which version of UCH are you referring to? Some of them might be socialist, some of them might not be, depends on the details.

Basically the ones we already have here in the U.S. - free public education, Medicaid/Medicare, but we want them expanded as well as expanding other programs, and to consider universal basic income, which is being tested in various places.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Okay. I think I have a basis for understanding what you are saying.

Government funded education (not free, don't be silly) is an example of a collectivized means of production - the product being education. We do have some collectivized industries in the US, and others that are not.

So what you want is to collectivize the healthcare payment system - or, more precisely, finish collectivizing the healthcare payment system.

 

[PyramidHead]

Okay. I think I have a basis for understanding what you are saying.

Government funded education (not free, don't be silly) is an example of a collectivized means of production - the product being education. We do have some collectivized industries in the US, and others that are not.

So what you want is to collectivize the healthcare payment system - or, more precisely, finish collectivizing the healthcare payment system.

Government funded education is not socialism unless the teachers collectively make the relevant decisions about how the school is run, where the money is spent, etc. Simply placing a spigot of public funds at one end of the education system while leaving everything else in the hands of politicians and their corporate masters does not socialism make.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Okay. I think I have a basis for understanding what you are saying.

Government funded education (not free, don't be silly) is an example of a collectivized means of production - the product being education. We do have some collectivized industries in the US, and others that are not.

So what you want is to collectivize the healthcare payment system - or, more precisely, finish collectivizing the healthcare payment system.

Government funded education is not socialism unless the teachers collectively make the relevant decisions about how the school is run, where the money is spent, etc.

Uh, teachers vote. In elections. Where they vote for the people who make those decision. Just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you lose the right to vote.

 

[PyramidHead]

Okay. I think I have a basis for understanding what you are saying.

Government funded education (not free, don't be silly) is an example of a collectivized means of production - the product being education. We do have some collectivized industries in the US, and others that are not.

So what you want is to collectivize the healthcare payment system - or, more precisely, finish collectivizing the healthcare payment system.

Government funded education is not socialism unless the teachers collectively make the relevant decisions about how the school is run, where the money is spent, etc.

Uh, teachers vote. In elections. Where they vote for the people who make those decision. Just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you lose the right to vote.

The presence of a vote every two years is not the same as full democratic control of the means of production. Maybe we should start a new thread?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Okay, if voting is not enough then it is clear that UHC is not socialism (going back a few steps instead of starting a new thread).

I wonder, is "Democratic Socialism" supposed to mean something different that "Socialism" then?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You have quite a few successful countries that have collectivized the means of production?

Oh, it's collectivized means of production that you guys are scared of? I'm talking about the "socializms!@!!!!" response to things like UHC.

Get a dictionary.

 

[Ford]

Hang on a second.

Did someone here just seriously make the argument that the Nazis were socialist because they used the word socialist in their name?

 

[J842P]

Okay, if voting is not enough then it is clear that UHC is not socialism (going back a few steps instead of starting a new thread).

I wonder, is "Democratic Socialism" supposed to mean something different that "Socialism" then?

I think what most Americans mean by democratic socialism is social democracy. Unless you are actually among communists/socialists, even most people in very liberal areas like college campuses mean the latter not the former.

 

[Angry Floof]

You have quite a few successful countries that have collectivized the means of production?

Oh, it's collectivized means of production that you guys are scared of? I'm talking about the "socializms!@!!!!" response to things like UHC.

Get a dictionary.

Is there a right wing authoritarian follower dictionary that supports the narrative you want? Because the U.S. is not even remotely, nor on its way to being, anything like the cartoon in your heads that you call socialism.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Thanks for using the "Nazis are socialists" argument as requested.

Did you read your own link? They call themselves national socialists. After the actual Nazis, rather than yet another case of somebody calling somebody they don't like a Nazi.

Oh, brother! Are you really arguing that the nazi's ideas of socialism is the same as standard socialism or even the democratic socialism espoused by those such as Bernie Sanders?

Wow. No. Not even remotely close. I can't tell if you are mocking underseer or joining in this most blatant of straw men.

 

[ZiprHead]

Oh, brother! Are you really arguing that the nazi's ideas of socialism is the same as standard socialism or even the democratic socialism espoused by those such as Bernie Sanders?

Wow. No. Not even remotely close. I can't tell if you are mocking underseer or joining in this most blatant of straw men.

Fine. Then explain yourself, because a lot of us sure took it that way.

 

[PyramidHead]

Okay, if voting is not enough then it is clear that UHC is not socialism (going back a few steps instead of starting a new thread).

I wonder, is "Democratic Socialism" supposed to mean something different that "Socialism" then?

VERY much so, yes. I would actually love to go into this more.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Oh, brother! Are you really arguing that the nazi's ideas of socialism is the same as standard socialism or even the democratic socialism espoused by those such as Bernie Sanders?

Wow. No. Not even remotely close. I can't tell if you are mocking underseer or joining in this most blatant of straw men.

Fine. Then explain yourself, because a lot of us sure took it that way.

How slowly do you need me to speak?

Did you read the link Underseer posted? Underseer clearly didn't.

Note what the people here are calling themselves. Note what the actual Nazis called themselves. Note that they match. Note that they are similar in disposition and intent. Note that that is very different from what other self-described socialists are. Note that it is also different than what other people labelled "Nazis" are. These are actual Nazis, even in name.

Clear enough for you now? Or are you now going to inexplicably say I said something homophobe or anti-Islam or misogynist in the above?

 

[ZiprHead]

Fine. Then explain yourself, because a lot of us sure took it that way.

How slowly do you need me to speak?

Did you read the link Underseer posted? Underseer clearly didn't.

Note what the people here are calling themselves. Note what the actual Nazis called themselves. Note that they match. Note that they are similar in disposition and intent. Note that that is very different from what other self-described socialists are. Note that it is also different than what other people labelled "Nazis" are. These are actual Nazis, even in name.

Clear enough for you now? Or are you now going to inexplicably say I said something homophobe or anti-Islam or misogynist in the above?

Why thank you, Captain Obvious. You have spared us all from a life of not knowing that National Socialists are also nazis. We are all now forever in your debt. How can we ever think to be able to repay you?

How about a lollipop?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why thank you, Captain Obvious.

It isn't often that Captain Obvious is needed that badly and explicitly requested like you just did there.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Okay, if voting is not enough then it is clear that UHC is not socialism (going back a few steps instead of starting a new thread).

I wonder, is "Democratic Socialism" supposed to mean something different that "Socialism" then?

I think what most Americans mean by democratic socialism is social democracy. Unless you are actually among communists/socialists, even most people in very liberal areas like college campuses mean the latter not the former.

I actually did look at that link. Interestingly enough, at the very top of the page is this note:

Not to be confused with  Democratic socialism.

I'll have to get back to this as soon as I get a chance to read those articles in greater depth.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why thank you, Captain Obvious.

It isn't often that Captain Obvious is needed that badly and explicitly requested like you just did there.

Doubling down on your losing hand?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why thank you, Captain Obvious.

It isn't often that Captain Obvious is needed that badly and explicitly requested like you just did there.

Doubling down on your losing hand?

What losing hand? You've become the new laughing dog haven't you? Belligerent just for the sake of it without logic or reason. What I wrote initially was perfectly sensible. You laid down a straw man to muddy it for no apparent reason, needed it explained to you, and then went into idiot mode. Nuff said.