Non-believers - Ever prayed really hard for God to reveal himself?

[Tom Sawyer]

If you seeked God and found him then you'd have a genuine belief in Him and could be saved. BTW I haven't tried very hard to seek God since I've been a non-believer.

Then you should look harder. The lack of frost giants in the world is positive evidence of the existence of Odin killing them all. If you're going to dispute that, you're going to need to show me a frost giant to prove that Odin wasn't here getting rid of them.

 

[excreationist]

That would be one way.
Or, it is sufficient for me to show that you never, ever researched how many monarchies there are, or the names of even one other monarch, to establish that your claim is not worth the paper it's not printed on.

So do you think it is likely that a doppelgänger of Queen Elizabeth exists that is a genetic clone? Do you know how unlikely that is to happen by chance or do you think a supernatural or alien explanation might be possible?

That's kind of a stupid way to count the number of QE's in the world... But if you prefer brute force, have at it. Or, you could count monarchies and determine the names of their monarchs, and possible heirs, for a given time, so that your claim would be believable and possible to support.

I'm not saying that there are no other queens that are called Elizabeth. I'm saying that there aren't any genetic clones of her that are a result of chance or design. I'm not completely certain of that. Do you think my provisional belief is unreasonable?

Look, it's not like i've decided to inflict some horrible burden upon you.
YOU'RE making a claim.
YOU'RE the one stuck with either supporting it or looking like a fool because you can't support it and want to blame others for scrutinizing your claim.

You're also making the claim that Poseidon might punish unbelievers eternally. At the moment I'm only talking about Poseidon, not the other gods and religions. How am I supposed to "prove" to you that Poseidon won't punish nonbelievers eternally? Do I need to read everything related to Poseidon? Even if I did there could be the possibility that Poseidon would do it without humans knowing about it. Why do I need to "prove" that Poseidon won't punish nonbelievers eternally. What if I said that cheetahs are faster than sloths? There is the possibility that there are sloths that no-one has seen that are super-fast. In the same way there is a possibility that Poseidon would punish non-believers eternally.

 

[Keith&Co.]

We were talking about Poseidon vs the Christian God. I want to discuss that first. You were dismissing my argument due to "argument from popularity".

Yes. Because that's what you're doing.

BTW you seem to be about the only one on this board (I think) and the other two boards I posted this on who openly thinks I'm wrong about the Christian God's punishment for unbelief being the only example of that kind amongst the other religions.

1) Tom Sawyer may be upset with you for this claim. Or disappointed.
2) Seriously, are you using a by-the-way argument from popularity in the middle of a defense of your argument from popularity?
3) I never said YOU ARE WRONG about the Christain god being the only one whe threatons to throw you into Hell. I asked HOW DO YOU KNOW he's the only one, and your answers are disappointing.

Let's say I made the statement that cheetahs are the fastest animal.

Then you'd be wrong.

It is according to a lot of sources.

And they'd be wrong, too.

For me to state that as a fact do I need to research every other animal and show to you that every other animal is not as fast or faster than a cheetah - I think that is a good analogy to what you're saying.

It would be a good analogy if you could find a qualified expert in comparative theology who has stated that God is...blah blah...for eternity.
That would have been a good reference to refer to when i asked 'how do you know?'
But saying 'Well, jeez, do you expect me to read up on every religion, or even the one religion under discussion, before i make absolute statements on a topic i know next to nothing about?' That's not really supporting any of your claims, is it?

 

[Keith&Co.]

If you bring them up one at the time as objections you've got to explain why it is an objection - you haven't done this with Poseidon - you haven't shown he is a threat.

I have never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never said that lack of belief in Poseidon is a threat. What i havedone is asked how you came to the conclusion you did.
Your answers have been disappoint

You've just demanded me to prove that he isn't a threat.

No. You claimed there's not much of a risk to not believing in Poseidon. i asked how you concluded this. You apparently just dismissed it without knowing what you were talking about.
THAT is your failing, posting claims you haven't supported, can't support, won't research.

It's like the cheetah example. Let's say you said

Let's say i said that the Peregrine is a faster animal.

Deal with that.

Well I haven't looked closely at every other animal....

You also haven't looked too closely at the exact claim you made, or the ways the better websites frame their claim.

though I'm not completely sure that cheetahs are the fastest animal - but there is a good chance they are or at least it is a reasonable belief.

No, it's an error.

Do you know why no one else seems to insist that I'm wrong about my statement that Christianity is about the only religion that sends nonbelievers to hell?

I don't even know why you continue to think i'm saying your statement is wrong.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So do you think it is likely that a doppelgänger of Queen Elizabeth exists that is a genetic clone? Do you know how unlikely that is to happen by chance or do you think a supernatural or alien explanation might be possible?

Oh. By 'only one queen elizabeth' you meant that the one person sitting on the throne of England is a unique individual, holding a unique office. Not that there are no other queens named Elizabeth in the world at this moment... Because that was how i read your claim.

So the failure here was you not making your intentions clear. Kinda like calling the Cheetah the fastest animal.
You probably should have said 'the fastest land animal traveling across a surface under its own power over short bursts.'

I'm not saying that there are no other queens that are called Elizabeth. I'm saying that there aren't any genetic clones of her that are a result of chance or design.

Then why wasn't the word 'clone' in your original statement?
But still, i would not have to search the entire world. It would be enough to search Buckingham Palace. because even if a clone of Elizabeth is working as a stock broker in New York, she would not be QUEEN Elizabeth. That's an office. You can't clone an office, esp. of a monarchy. They're kinda mono-holdings.

I'm not completely certain of that. Do you think my provisional belief is unreasonable?

I think making the claim without doing the homework to support it is unreasonable. But here, just noting the age of successful cloning, the age of Queen Elizabeth I and II, and the definition of 'queen' would have been sufficient homework.
You didn't even do it for your thought experiment example....

You're also making the claim that Poseidon might punish unbelievers eternally.

'Might?' Yes, well, as far as you knew at the time you dismissed the threat, he could have.

At the moment I'm only talking about Poseidon, not the other gods and religions.

That's sad, because Poseidon is only an example.
But you're confident enough to make sweeping claims about all the gods not doing something, though you don't know shit about their pantheons or afterlives.

How am I supposed to "prove" to you that Poseidon won't punish nonbelievers eternally?

Please, please, please point to the post where i asked you to do this?

Why do I need to "prove" that Poseidon won't punish nonbelievers eternally.

Please, please, please point to the post where i asked you to do this?

What if I said that cheetahs are faster than sloths? There is the possibility that there are sloths that no-one has seen that are super-fast.

Then make it a defendable claim, ExC. Say 'cheetahs are faster than any sloth is capable of traveling across a surface, to th beast of our knowledge.'

In the same way there is a possibility that Poseidon would punish non-believers eternally.

Then how did you dismiss the possibility in the first place?

 

[funinspace]

Well there are about 2.3 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims.... that's 3.9 billion out of 7 billion - I suspect most people believe in monotheism or Heaven or that the universe was created by a god. If it isn't most people it is close to half of people.

The major (with 100k plus followers) exclusive In or your Out (could be eternal torment or annihilation) clubs that I am aware of:

Christianity: Some Exclusive H&H; some discard hell in favor of annihilation; some discard hell but for the “truly” evil; some just send all to heaven; and some send those belonging to the “wrong” Christian sects to hell as well.
Islam: Exclusive H&H; I’m sure there are Islamic groups that are just as confusing as the Christian ones (I’m just not that up on it)
Jehovah Witness (odd example of an exclusive Xian club): Heaven for 144,000 chosen Witnesses, eternity on new earth for other Witnesses. All others annihilated. No hell.

Most of the rest of the deity-theologies, if they believe in an after world paradise, they tend to think most all people eventually find the route there. This includes Judaism. If there is an eternal torture chamber for the masses being manned by Allah or the Christian God, either one will be sending a minimum of 5 billion currently living humans to this hell hole. I’d understand the desire to avoid such a fate, but I’d have a hard time pretending to love such a monster, and I don’t see how such an all powerful monster wouldn’t see thru my pretense...

So does one pick a god to worship based upon the idea of lowering the risk of going to that god’s eternal torture chamber? Does such a god really accept a non-heart felt suck up? Should one pick the faster growing faith of Islam? Or should one pick a nice and relatively benign liberal Protestant Christian sect that lets you pretty much stay where you are at? Or does one just say screw it and pick one of those odd eastern faiths with reincarnation for the fun of it?

Supposedly about 75% of Americans still profess some version of a belief in the Christian God today. Yet, only 58% of Americans believe in a Hell. At the same time only about 25% of Americans regularly attend a church. So 2/3’s of American Christians put on their Christianity, like most people put on/off their shirt. Take it off when they go to bed, take it off to go swimming, take it off when hot, take it off when sun tanning, et.al. Yeah, an all-powerful, all knowing entity really appreciates a half hearted faith…

Ref: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/poll-americans-belief-god-strong-declining

 

[ideologyhunter]

I like that there's "hard prayin'" versus, I guess, half-hearted prayin'. The latter would be "Hi God, me again, yadda yadda" and the 'hard' version would be showboating: "OHHHHH GODGODGODGODGOD!!!" Somehow it sounds more like constipation relief than, let's say, hard thinking. Now, hard thinking -- THAT'S hard.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I like that there's "hard prayin'" versus, I guess, half-hearted prayin'. The latter would be "Hi God, me again, yadda yadda" and the 'hard' version would be showboating: "OHHHHH GODGODGODGODGOD!!!" Somehow it sounds more like constipation relief than, let's say, hard thinking. Now, hard thinking -- THAT'S hard.

I liked Twain's split, putting it into Outward prayers that other christains could see (world peace), and Inward prayers where you sat in the pew and asked for what you really wanted, such as that business you competed with to burn down and the pompous ass owner to die the death of a thousand rutabagas.

 

[jonJ]

Well what matters is the evidence, and "supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching" is a form of evidence and I think this outweighs the evidence that Poseidon or the FSM would punish all nonbelievers eternally. Or do you disagree?

Something is only a 'form of evidence' if it can be shown that it tends to reveal the truth. Bible verses and preaching are no more 'evidence' for God than Lord of the Rings is evidence for Gandalf. You've established that a lot of people believe in the Christian God, but we knew that already. Your next step is to provide us with some reason to think they might be correct.

 

[blastula]

Well what matters is the evidence, and "supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching" is a form of evidence

But do you think it's a good form of evidence that any of it's true? If you think so, then why aren't you a believer?

 

[+or-1]

Never pray at all. What would be the point? Now, prey on the other hand...

 

[Rhea]

Yes hell isn't proven but I think it is a slight possibility.

I don't find that it has even the slightest possibility of truth. **IF** the jesus/god of the bible is true then it is utterly incompatible with eternal damnation. It just doesn't compute. I cannot make myself come up with a way of seeing it as even a remote possibility. No god of love would have it. (And for what it's worth, no god that has it would buy a person's efforts to believe just to avoid it - he didn't fall off the turnip truck just yesterday).

So, no I don't see that as being even remotely possible at all in any way. I can't make myself even pretend.


I did pray once, I think I was like 21 or something. I got scared after watching some Mickey Rourke flick about being Satan (Angel Heart), woke me out of sleep with a full-on fear attack. So I did a prayer-like entreaty and felt all better. Just the thing to fight off a mind-induced fear based on a fictional movie. The fact that it worked made both the movie and the prayer so mundane as to cease discomfort.

 

[excreationist]

I have never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never said that lack of belief in Poseidon is a threat. What i havedone is asked how you came to the conclusion you did.

If you don't think the conclusion is perhaps mistaken then what is your major problem with the conclusion?

....You claimed there's not much of a risk to not believing in Poseidon. i asked how you concluded this. You apparently just dismissed it without knowing what you were talking about.

I have heard of Poseidon and read a bit about him and saw a character based on him in a movie. Do you expect me to know everything about Poseidon?

I don't think it matters how much I know about Poseidon.... what matters is whether my conclusion is correct. If you think my conclusion is incorrect then you ARE saying that maybe the lack of belief in Poseidon is a threat.

THAT is your failing, posting claims you haven't supported, can't support, won't research.

Let's say I claimed that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light (though I know of some people who would disagree). Would you object to me stating that? After all I haven't done any experiments or learnt the math behind that. I want to know.

Let's say i said that the Peregrine is a faster animal.

Yes after I posted that I realised I was talking about land speed. BTW by pointing that out you demonstrated how easy it is to disprove me - just show one counter-example. On the other hand for me to prove my statement I would have had to investigate every animal. You see I only thought about a few animals and decided that they weren't faster than a cheetah. I had considered birds but assumed that maybe they weren't faster than a cheetah. I guess I could have done proper research and looked up the speeds for birds. So you're saying I should investigate 3000+ religions or gods or whatever.... but similar to the cheetah example it is far easier for you to just provide ONE counter-example. If you don't know of any counter-example, what is your objection? You're just saying maybe I'm wrong. But unless you can provide some evidence then your words aren't very helpful. It's like you saying "maybe you're wrong about the cheetah" and not giving an example of a faster animal. It is just annoying.

"Do you know why no one else seems to insist that I'm wrong about my statement that Christianity is about the only religion that sends nonbelievers to hell?"

....I don't even know why you continue to think i'm saying your statement is wrong.

If you don't think I'm wrong then what is your problem with that statement? If my statement is true then it means that Poseidon doesn't send nonbelievers to hell.

 

[excreationist]

I don't find that it has even the slightest possibility of truth. **IF** the jesus/god of the bible is true then it is utterly incompatible with eternal damnation. It just doesn't compute.

Well large number of theologians and Christians can accept it.
BTW in this video the pastor is saying eternal damnation makes God great and glorious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzynfCuJRBY

I don't think some of Einstein's theories and quantum physics "computes" - but that doesn't prove it is false. (on the other hand I don't really believe in hell personally)

No god of love would have it.

Well lots of Christians believe in eternal damnation but think God has a perfect love for us.

 

[excreationist]

"Well what matters is the evidence, and "supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching" is a form of evidence"

But do you think it's a good form of evidence that any of it's true? If you think so, then why aren't you a believer?

The context was whether there was more evidence that Poseidon's punishment for unbelievers would be as extreme as the Christian God's. I think there is some evidence that Christianity is true. There is a lot of archaeological evidence and people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel Lee Strobel claimed to be an atheist but then converted after investigating the evidence. I have many theological issues though.

 

[excreationist]

Something is only a 'form of evidence' if it can be shown that it tends to reveal the truth. Bible verses and preaching are no more 'evidence' for God than Lord of the Rings is evidence for Gandalf. You've established that a lot of people believe in the Christian God, but we knew that already. Your next step is to provide us with some reason to think they might be correct.

No-one believes that Lord of the Rings talks about real people. People who were apparently atheists like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel Lee Strobel who have converted based on the evidence they think they've found - mostly from the Bible. I can't prove whether the Bible is the Truth or not, but it would be more likely to be the truth than Lord of the Rings. I mean a lot of people have come to believe in God based on the Bible. None have come to believe in Gandalf. Perhaps Keith&Co. will complain that I haven't thoroughly researched that last statement and I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe those conversions are due to the Bible being true - but at least from their points of view it is the truth.

 

[excreationist]

....3) I never said YOU ARE WRONG about the Christian god being the only one who threatens to throw you into Hell. I asked HOW DO YOU KNOW he's the only one, and your answers are disappointing.

Ok.... well over the years I've learnt about different religions. I think in Tibetan Buddhism they believe in hell but I think that is just for bad people. Muslims believe in many levels of hell I think well-behaved non-believers aren't punished very severely. Over the last several months I've been going to a church every now and then. Initially they had services where you could ask questions. I asked hard questions about hell and science and the Bible. Anyway one of the last times I went there I was talking to a guy studying theology and he said that Christianity is the only religion which believes that all people are inherently bad and deserve to go to hell. It is only a belief in Jesus that saves them from hell. He has been studying theology a lot and should be knowledgeable about that. I've also watched a Christian video called "Hell's Bells - The Dangers of Rock and Roll". They said that people who believe that there are many paths to Heaven are wrong - even though many Christians believe that. In the Bible it says that Jesus is the only way to the Father. That implies that the only way to escape hell is through Jesus. I have discussed this type of thing a few times and no-one has ever said that there are other religions that believe all non-believers go to hell.

So basically as far as I know only a few religions believe in hell. In many of them it isn't eternal. As far as I know Christianity is the only religion that says that ALL people deserve to go to hell. It is only through belief that anyone is saved.

I haven't come across anyone else saying that there are other religions that also believe that everyone deserves eternal punishment. I don't KNOW that I'm right about that. Though I think I am probably right about the major religions at least. What do you think? Do you think there are other religions that believe that EVERYONE deserves eternal punishment. (BTW believers apparently go to Heaven not because they deserve it, but because salvation is a free gift showing somehow that God has infinite love for us)

 

[jonJ]

I can't prove whether the Bible is the Truth or not, but it would be more likely to be the truth than Lord of the Rings.

Why do you think that? Never mind that a lot of other people believe it. Why do you think so? What is your evidence?

Your defence of Christianity seems to be based entirely on the fact that lots of other people believe in it, yet when it's pointed out to you that many more people don't believe in Christianity than do, you dismiss that as irrelevant. Why is the fact that lots of people believe in the Bible a reason for you to believe in the Bible, when the fact that lots of people believe in the Koran is not a reason for you to believe in the Koran?

Lee Strobel is one person who has (or claims to have) converted from atheism to Christianity. I can point you to Richard Dawkins' Converts' Corner where there are forty-five pages of accounts from Christians who have converted to atheism, well over 1000 in all, many of them citing 'evidence' as their main reason for doing so. Why do you think one person going the other way outweighs these?

Was Strobel really ever an atheist? There doesn't seem to be any way to tell. And theists pretending to be, or have been, atheists, in the hope that this will make their arguments more effective, is a fairly common tactic -- as I'm sure you know.

 

[excreationist]

...Lee Strobel is one person who has (or claims to have) converted from atheism to Christianity. I can point you to Richard Dawkins' Converts' Corner where there are forty-five pages of accounts from Christians who have converted to atheism, well over 1000 in all, many of them citing 'evidence' as their main reason for doing so. Why do you think one person going the other way outweighs these?....

If I was a Christian then I would have an answer for that but I'm not and think the evidence against Christianity outweighs the evidence for it. But I think there are examples of atheists converting to Christianity so there must be some kind of evidence that Christianity is true. It is like a court case. There might be a few possibilities with evidence for each. Though there is only one fact about what happened the other evidence could still be considered to be form of evidence.

BTW here is a list of notable converts - not just any old convert: (Lee Strobel didn't even make that list)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_nontheism

Compare the size of the list to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Nontheism

My guess at the Christian explanation of deconversions might be that they never really knew the true God (my sisters and their church believe that a lot of so-called Christians are possessed with "religious demons" and they experience "counterfeit" gifts). They could also have had other demons affecting their judgement. BTW a Christian wrote me a letter and said I was possessed by an intellectual demon. He is very intelligent though - I mean he isn't someone I would have expected to believe that.

From his letter:

So you can better understand these demons, I will mention a couple in your life so you can identify their influence in your mind. One spirit is an Intellectual spirit. This spirit encourages you to research & attempt to find scientific explanations to God, creation, religion, philosophical things, etc. God simply asks us to trust in Him & believe. The Holy Spirit gives us that ability.

BTW Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

It is saying that popularity of deconversions doesn't mean it is the right path.

 

[Juma]

I don't think some of Einstein's theories and quantum physics "computes" - but that doesn't prove it is false. (on the other hand I don't really believe in hell personally)

Ah. You dont believe in science (QM and relativity being amongst the best proven theories of science) and you are not entirely sure there is no hell...

Well lots of Christians believe in eternal damnation but think God has a perfect love for us.

And you seem this to be perfectly reasonable?

Wow! This is a pretty good example of intellectual dissonance...