How exactly is ISIS a threat to our Vital National Interests?

[+or-1]

Thread: How exactly is ISIS a threat to our Vital National Interests?

They could interfere with the flow of oil and thus adversely impact the obscene profits of the large, multinational oil conglomerates that own our government. Period.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They're a small brush fire now. What does a brush fire do if nothing is done about it?

Regenerates the bush. Many plants have seeds that don't germinate unless exposed to fire. And if the fire is not close to a town, it is best to leave it be - it will go out once the wind changes.

This one is near town--namely, the oil fields in the area. If ISIS gets it's hands on enough oil they'll be self-funding and a much greater threat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thread: How exactly is ISIS a threat to our Vital National Interests?

They could interfere with the flow of oil and thus adversely impact the obscene profits of the large, multinational oil conglomerates that own our government. Period.

Interfering with our oil would do a lot more than impact profits.

Ever hear of the Arab Oil Embargo?

 

[Deepak]

Maybe, but I haven't mentioned alternative technologies.

Well if you haven't it might be time to start. Defunding desert death cults is only one benefit of devaluing oil on the global market. We should be investing in it and exporting heavily.

They could interfere with the flow of oil and thus adversely impact the obscene profits of the large, multinational oil conglomerates that own our government. Period.

Interfering with our oil would do a lot more than impact profits.

Ever hear of the Arab Oil Embargo?

The problem is twofold, and while an embargo would certainly hurt US oil production is higher than it has been in quite some time. Not to say we could immediately displace any loss of production.

The Islamic State having oil profits is problematic. The House of Saud spends the highest percentage of GDP in any of the top 20 GDP countries. If ISIL is able to establish themselves in the region, I'm damn sure they'd be putting that number to shame and I'm sure they'd be funding as much terrorism as they could afford.

 

[thief of fire]

Well if you haven't it might be time to start. Defunding desert death cults is only one benefit of devaluing oil on the global market. We should be investing in it and exporting heavily.

I can talk about it if there is a thread on it. It is an area of great interest to me. But, you would like me to start talking about it in this thread?

 

[Deepak]

Well if you haven't it might be time to start. Defunding desert death cults is only one benefit of devaluing oil on the global market. We should be investing in it and exporting heavily.

I can talk about it if there is a thread on it. It is an area of great interest to me. But, you would like me to start talking about it in this thread?

It was a turn of phrase.

 

[thief of fire]

I can talk about it if there is a thread on it. It is an area of great interest to me. But, you would like me to start talking about it in this thread?

It was a turn of phrase.

Ok...it came across as a sermon.

 

[untermensche]

Ok...it came across as a sermon.

A sermon would be to say you are going to hell.

Reality is we are turning the planet to hell as fast as humanly possible.

 

[bilby]

Ok...it came across as a sermon.

A sermon would be to say you are going to hell.

Reality is we are turning the planet to hell as fast as humanly possible.

Well that's pure hyperbole. 'As fast as humanly possible' would be about half an hour to render the whole thing completely uninhabitable to humans.

Actually, things are getting better in most places - albeit rather less rapidly than we might like. There are a handful of places where things are getting worse - usually as the result of dickheads ordering military action - but they are fewer and further between than almost any time in the last century.

People get the impression that things are worse, but that is more a result of saturation 'news' coverage that emphasises the shit, than any actual worsening of the world situation.

 

[4321lynx]

They're a small brush fire now. What does a brush fire do if nothing is done about it?

In their wildest wet dreams, totally unconstrained by reality, they reconquer everything else once held by Muslims and can threaten the US.


But there is no scenario in which they become more than a small brush fire. (emphasis mine)

You might as well say "well, that guy in that cave with no income, no money, no friends, and no future, he would like to launch attacks at the US too, so he is an imminent threat."

But it depends on whose property the brush fire happens or whose ox is being bgored

You could say that compared to the record of the 20th/21st century's treacherous attacks and murderous slaughter in this world, considered as fireworks, the 9/11 attack was a wet firecracker, and the beheadings of 2 US men and ! Brit weren't even that., but look at the fuss. How many Muslims and other Middle Eastern unfortunates did ISIS behead just this year? Who knows? Who cares?

 

[bilby]

In their wildest wet dreams, totally unconstrained by reality, they reconquer everything else once held by Muslims and can threaten the US.


But there is no scenario in which they become more than a small brush fire. (emphasis mine)

You might as well say "well, that guy in that cave with no income, no money, no friends, and no future, he would like to launch attacks at the US too, so he is an imminent threat."

But it depends on whose property the brush fire happens or whose ox is being bgored

You could say that compared to the record of the 20th/21st century's treacherous attacks and murderous slaughter in this world, considered as fireworks, the 9/11 attack was a wet firecracker, and the beheadings of 2 US men and ! Brit weren't even that., but look at the fuss. How many Muslims and other Middle Eastern unfortunates did ISIS behead just this year? Who knows? Who cares?

Quite.

All this fuss over one guy getting beheaded - by a group who are known to have killed thousands - because he was BRITISH

OMG, they killed 2 Americans as well!!1!!eleven!!

So that's 2 Americans, 1 Briton, and a few thousand 'others' who are not important enough to count, much less do something about.

I am wondering if I have dropped through a time warp to 1814.

I am prepared to entertain arguments that show that the use of military force against ISIS/ISIL is justified; but so far I haven't seen one attempted. All I am seeing is jingoistic appeals to emotion - and that is not a good way to justify ANYTHING, IMO.

 

[thief of fire]

Ok...it came across as a sermon.

A sermon would be to say you are going to hell.
Reality is we are turning the planet to hell as fast as humanly possible.

We are damaging things a lot and if we listen to the science our own extinction is one real possibility, I don't mind discussing these things but it seems OT in this thread, that's all.

 

[thief of fire]

I am prepared to entertain arguments that show that the use of military force against ISIS/ISIL is justified; but so far I haven't seen one attempted. All I am seeing is jingoistic appeals to emotion - and that is not a good way to justify ANYTHING, IMO.

Australia's national security is at stake. haven't you heard?
And it will only cost $500B per year.
Tony Abbott: Military action against Isis will cost half a billion dollars a year

The prime minister provided an estimate of the likely cost of Australia’s planned involvement in Iraq, which includes potential use of Royal Australian Air Force Super Hornets in air strikes against Isis targets in Iraq.

“We don’t have a specific costing but the ballpark is about a quarter of a billion [dollars] every six months,” Abbott said during a media conference in Arnhem Land.

“It’s a significant amount of money but there is a sense in which, when national security is at stake

 

[Deepak]

Who cares?

I think you meant "I don't care".

Who cares how many children starve to death in American? Do you know how many people died in the Holodomor?

 

[bilby]

Australia's national security is at stake. haven't you heard?
And it will only cost $500B per year.
Tony Abbott: Military action against Isis will cost half a billion dollars a year

The prime minister provided an estimate of the likely cost of Australia’s planned involvement in Iraq, which includes potential use of Royal Australian Air Force Super Hornets in air strikes against Isis targets in Iraq.

“We don’t have a specific costing but the ballpark is about a quarter of a billion [dollars] every six months,” Abbott said during a media conference in Arnhem Land.

“It’s a significant amount of money but there is a sense in which, when national security is at stake

Despite his apparent opinion to the contrary, the mad monk's re-election prospects are not the same thing as 'national security'. The guy is a complete fucking embarrassment, even by the standards of Australian Prime Ministers, and that's a pretty high bar.

 

[4321lynx]

Who cares?

I think you meant "I don't care".

Who cares how many children starve to death in American? Do you know how many people died in the Holodomor?

Then you think wrong.

I knew all about Holodomor when Stalin was still Good Old Uncle Joe to the West and when if you said anything about forced labour camps or the NKVD you were looked upon as a Fascist and possible ex-Nazi . That was probably well before you were born.

I meant ""who in the USA and Canada" and who in this Forum, and if many here, why there was no thread protesting the deaths and rapes and slavery in the ME until the macabre murder of Western individuals. The ox story still is a fact.

 

[metacristi]

How exactly is ISIS a threat to our Vital National Interests?

Anyone rational who wants a durable solution should read for example

Global Jihad: The Future in the Face of Militant Islam (the Islamism of the so called classical islam is strongly related with that of modern radicals; unpleasant but we have to begin with the truth if we want real solutions)
The Devil We Don't Know: The Dark Side of Revolutions in the Middle East (not really a surprise that in the whole Islamic world it is still religion, islam in this case, which strongly shapes the other parts of culture and not the other way around how it is in the other parts of the globe, the 'Saudis' are only part of the problem)

and he will easily understand why ISIS is indeed a huge threat. And not only that for unfortunately Global Jihad does not end with the end of ISIS (neither is 'being peaceful' a guarantee that sharia, at least part of its dysfunctional requirements applied in practice, won't have a vey bad influence over free societies on long run). There is no easy solution to this problem but one thing is quite clear, platitudes like that that what ISIS do is not islam cannot solve the problem on long run.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How exactly is ISIS a threat to our Vital National Interests?

Anyone rational who wants a durable solution should read for example

Global Jihad: The Future in the Face of Militant Islam (the Islamism of the so called classical islam is strongly related with that of modern radicals; unpleasant but we have to begin with the truth if we want real solutions)
The Devil We Don't Know: The Dark Side of Revolutions in the Middle East (not really a surprise that in the whole Islamic world it is still religion, islam in this case, which strongly shapes the other parts of culture and not the other way around how it is in the other parts of the globe, the 'Saudis' are only part of the problem)

and he will easily understand why ISIS is indeed a huge threat. And not only that for unfortunately Global Jihad does not end with the end of ISIS (neither is 'being peaceful' a guarantee that sharia, at least part of its dysfunctional requirements applied in practice, won't have a vey bad influence over free societies on long run). There is no easy solution to this problem but one thing is quite clear, platitudes like that that what ISIS do is not islam cannot solve the problem on long run.

It's much easier to deny the problem than accept that we are facing a situation with no good answers.

 

[Deepak]

I think you meant "I don't care".

Who cares how many children starve to death in American? Do you know how many people died in the Holodomor?

Then you think wrong.

I knew all about Holodomor when Stalin was still Good Old Uncle Joe to the West and when if you said anything about forced labour camps or the NKVD you were looked upon as a Fascist and possible ex-Nazi . That was probably well before you were born.

I meant ""who in the USA and Canada" and who in this Forum, and if many here, why there was no thread protesting the deaths and rapes and slavery in the ME until the macabre murder of Western individuals. The ox story still is a fact.

This is a silly argument. No one is married to only to their forum posts. I can only infrequently post here and there are tons of things which concern me which I don't have the opportunity to start a thread on.

There are no posts on Xian women being forced to convert to Islam in Pakistan, as far as I'm aware, so you must think that no one cares about that issue or women's issues in general then. I'm not willing to accept that, nor would I hold any forum members to that cynical standard.

 

[metacristi]

Anyone rational who wants a durable solution should read for example

Global Jihad: The Future in the Face of Militant Islam (the Islamism of the so called classical islam is strongly related with that of modern radicals; unpleasant but we have to begin with the truth if we want real solutions)
The Devil We Don't Know: The Dark Side of Revolutions in the Middle East (not really a surprise that in the whole Islamic world it is still religion, islam in this case, which strongly shapes the other parts of culture and not the other way around how it is in the other parts of the globe, the 'Saudis' are only part of the problem)

and he will easily understand why ISIS is indeed a huge threat. And not only that for unfortunately Global Jihad does not end with the end of ISIS (neither is 'being peaceful' a guarantee that sharia, at least part of its dysfunctional requirements applied in practice, won't have a vey bad influence over free societies on long run). There is no easy solution to this problem but one thing is quite clear, platitudes like that that what ISIS do is not islam cannot solve the problem on long run.

It's much easier to deny the problem than accept that we are facing a situation with no good answers.

The 'rabbit hole' is definitely much deeper than what the West is prepared to admit at this time. Global Jihad is a monster with a lot of heads* which will regenerate out of the ashes again and again if the correct causes are not identified clearly and dealt with (the theological element should necessarily be introduced in the equation as a main factor, islam is not peace, 'melting pot' factor or progress catalyser and it is a huge fallacy to believe that it can be easily lumped together with Christianity and Judaism, thus as easily to be 'tamed'). No one rational denies the existence of other factors (political, economical, social and so on) but the theological factor is decisive to understand the behaviour coming out of the muslim world (lack of self-criticism etc) and the very poor assimilation of the values of Enlightenment in spite of centuries now of exposure to Modernity. Sadly people in the muslim world are not in command of islam, as a certain propaganda claim, but the other way around; the forces of progress are too weak at the moment to finally bring the Islamic world in the 21st century and make future falls toward the past unlikely (i'm afraid the muslim communities in the West, especially Europe, are not an exception).


*some may be incapable to attack the non muslim world at the moment (like ISIS or even some 'peaceful' 'moderate friends' of the West) but they won't hesitate to do that once in a strong position, even in the absence of any provocation

The classical manual of the Hanafi school of law, the Hedaya, clearly states that jihad is to be fought against infidels even if they are not the aggressors:

"The destruction of the sword is incurred by infidels, although they be not the first aggressors, as appears from various passages in the sacred writings which are generally received to this effect."193

The Shafi‘i manual, Reliance of the Traveller, states:

"The caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax… while remaining in their ancestral religion)… The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim…"194

The vast majority of contemporary Muslim scholars hold to his classical Islamic theory of war, a theory which presumes that war against non-Muslims would be essentially unrestricted. This was the policy of the Islamic empire under which the theory developed.

- Global Jihad, chapter 5

in fact aggressive jihad was common along the history of islam and the medieval Islamic law permitting it is still largely with us, any parts overlooked at the moment can be easily reactivated upon the needs of muslims (ISIS actions are by no means un-Islamic)