Why does IQ cluster around 100 points?

[Jokodo]

You know Saint Exupery's "Little Prince" and the drawing of the elephant inside a boa constrictor?

No I don't.

Then google it

Show me the shape you think you can produce and give me a link to some researcher that has produced something besides a normal curve with a written test.

You're basically saying you can produce a lot of questions that people with a lower IQ score can answer that people with a higher score can't.

I'm not saying any such thing

 

[Speakpigeon]

But there is no reason why there should only be one peak. Why not a long plateau? Or multiple peaks?

Apparently, you're wrong. Here is what Wiki says.

By this definition, approximately two-thirds of the population scores are between IQ 85 and IQ 115. About 2.5 percent of the population scores above 130, and 2.5 percent below 70.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient

If two-third of the population falls by definition between IQ 85 and IQ 115, then by definition that's likely to produce one peak.

If you want to claim this is wrong, you should be able to articulate why you think it's wrong.
EB

Give a random population a test and you will always get a normal distribution. One peak.

Yes, but that contradicts what you claimed earlier, here:

there is no reason why there should only be one peak. Why not a long plateau? Or multiple peaks?

For so-called IQ tests they arbitrary label the peak at 100 and arbitrarily label standard deviations from the mean.

Labeling the peak "100" does not create the peak or create a normal curve.

The scores produce a normal curve.

Every time.

It is a biological feature of populations which are minor variations around a central genetic "plan".

Sure, but that's irrelevant to my post.
EB

 

[untermensche]

Then google it

Show me the shape you think you can produce and give me a link to some researcher that has produced something besides a normal curve with a written test.

You're basically saying you can produce a lot of questions that people with a lower IQ score can answer that people with a higher score can't.

I'm not saying any such thing

Show me a curve you think you can produce and then I can comment.

If it can be done you should be able to google it.

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Yes, but that contradicts what you claimed earlier, here:

there is no reason why there should only be one peak. Why not a long plateau? Or multiple peaks?

What I am saying here is we have a constraint that appears to have no reason for it.

It therefore must be a biological feature not a feature of the test.

If you imagine that all members of a species are slight variations of a genetic "plan" it follows.

All members of the human species are a slight variation around some mean.

The mean keeps rising in IQ tests so we really don't yet know what it really is.

 

[steve_bank]

Indeed. There are general approaches but in the end only results matter.

That is an arbitrary opinion.

If you are looking at intelligence it is how you get the answer that matters.

A score says nothing about the intelligence.

One form of intelligence is figuring out how to solve problems when routine methods fail. As a lifelong professional problem solver, in the end all that matters is a solution and sped of solution. Given a technical problem I cam solve with trial and error simulations often a lot faster than figuring out a neat logical formal solution. In the real world form does not matter, only consistent successes.

A lot of problem solving and invention is the result of dogged dull trial and error. There is deductive and inductive methods, but no rules o how to apply it. Experience ion problem solving matters. It got to the point I could verbalize a solution without conscious thought. It can not be reduced to logic and algorithms.

IQ tests measure basic skills and reasoning. What you do with it depends on motivation and in part luck. What is not measured is 'emotional IQ'.

 

[steve_bank]

One of the conclusions from the book Bell Curve was a missing high IQ segment.

Look at the number of people in higher IQ occupations agisnt the curve and trotal population and there are higher IQ types distrubted around.

In tech companies there are always people without any higher education are good at general problem solving. Conpanies rely on them.

On the other hand there are people with advanced degrees who can't deal with routine practical problems but vocalize steams of facts and conjectures.

 

[Jokodo]

Apparently, you're wrong. Here is what Wiki says.

By this definition, approximately two-thirds of the population scores are between IQ 85 and IQ 115. About 2.5 percent of the population scores above 130, and 2.5 percent below 70.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient

If two-third of the population falls by definition between IQ 85 and IQ 115, then by definition that's likely to produce one peak.

If you want to claim this is wrong, you should be able to articulate why you think it's wrong.
EB

Give a random population a test and you will always get a normal distribution. One peak.

For so-called IQ tests they arbitrary label the peak at 100 and arbitrarily label standard deviations from the mean.

Labeling the peak "100" does not create the peak or create a normal curve.

the selection and weighting of questions does. It is trivial to create a test with a mode at 0 or full score, and it is almost as trivial to create a test with a bimodal distribution of scores.

The scores produce a normal curve.

They better should - it's the explicit goal with which in mind the questions were selected.

Every time.

It is a biological feature of populations which are minor variations around a central genetic "plan".

It may well be a biological feature of the population, but even if it isn't, the tests would still produce that result.

 

[Jokodo]

Show me a curve you think you can produce and then I can comment.

If it can be done you should be able to google it.

how about something like this: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*8OIqzzbg6o7KmK4dLk-jRw.png

(from https://medium.com/precarious-physi...dal-distribution-if-you-have-one-c9629ac15469)

 

[untermensche]

As a lifelong professional problem solver, in the end all that matters is a solution and sped of solution.

That is because all you got paid for was the final product so all you cared about was some final product.

You were not a philosopher interested in intelligence.

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Show me a curve you think you can produce and then I can comment.

If it can be done you should be able to google it.

how about something like this: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*8OIqzzbg6o7KmK4dLk-jRw.png

(from https://medium.com/precarious-physi...dal-distribution-if-you-have-one-c9629ac15469)

Too few students. Not powered sufficiently.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Yes, but that contradicts what you claimed earlier, here:

there is no reason why there should only be one peak. Why not a long plateau? Or multiple peaks?

What I am saying here is we have a constraint that appears to have no reason for it.

Well, yes, there is a reason for, it's how the test has been defined:

By this definition, approximately two-thirds of the population scores are between IQ 85 and IQ 115. About 2.5 percent of the population scores above 130, and 2.5 percent below 70.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient

Or can you explain how Wikipedia is wrong?
EB

 

[untermensche]

What I am saying here is we have a constraint that appears to have no reason for it.

Well, yes, there is a reason for, it's how the test has been defined:

By this definition, approximately two-thirds of the population scores are between IQ 85 and IQ 115. About 2.5 percent of the population scores above 130, and 2.5 percent below 70.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient

Or can you explain how Wikipedia is wrong?
EB

Defining the curve has nothing to do with the production of the curve.

The curve is the number of people with a certain score.

With any written test with a random group sufficiently powered you will get a normal distribution of scores.

You can arbitrarily label the mean as 100 and one standard deviation from it as something else, but every normal curve has standard deviations from the mean.

The test does not create a normal curve. The test can change the normal curve a little but it is still a normal curve.

Human intellect produces it.

 

[Jokodo]

That is because all you got paid for was the final product so all you cared about was some final product.

You were not a philosopher interested in intelligence.

- - - Updated - - -

how about something like this: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*8OIqzzbg6o7KmK4dLk-jRw.png

(from https://medium.com/precarious-physi...dal-distribution-if-you-have-one-c9629ac15469)

Too few students. Not powered sufficiently.

And I'm telling you that by simply reweighting individual questions' scores, a similar outcome can be achieved on real dataset of thousands. There are people whose job is to avoid this from happening.

 

[Jokodo]

I've offered you a bet. If you are afraid you, you're right to be so - just have the guts to admit it!

 

[untermensche]

I've offered you a bet. If you are afraid you, you're right to be so - just have the guts to admit it!

I have no idea what the bet is.

Show me the exact curve you think you can produce.

And how exactly are you going to prove your test produces it?

 

[steve_bank]

That is because all you got paid for was the final product so all you cared about was some final product.

You were not a philosopher interested in intelligence.

- - - Updated - - -

how about something like this: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*8OIqzzbg6o7KmK4dLk-jRw.png

(from https://medium.com/precarious-physi...dal-distribution-if-you-have-one-c9629ac15469)

Too few students. Not powered sufficiently.

An ignorant utterance. It is like a fan in the stands in far away center field shouting the pitcher does not know how to pitch. Pitchers pinch in all sorts of ways, what matted is strike outs. Ever hear the saying 'philosophy bakes no bread'? Philosophy has nothing to do with it.

Being paid has nothing to do with it.

 

[untermensche]

Except that intelligence is how you answer a question or find a solution.

Looking at end results tells you absolutely nothing about intelligence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Intelligence is HOW you solve the problem.

No test can look at that.

If you get the right answer it is just assumed you solved it like everybody else. Or worse how you solved it doesn't matter to the test makers.

This eliminates natural differences.

No two people have the same intelligence.

Even if they both have the same exact score on a test.

Take people and give them an IQ test and then ask them to fix a car.

You will get a similar distribution but a completely different order.

It doesn't matter how people solve a problem, only that they solve it.

Intelligence is how you solve problems.

Not a score on a test.

But it doesn't matter the path you take to the answer, only that you get there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do human heights cluster about a mean?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...orm=IEQNAI&selectedindex=0&exph=0&expw=0&vt=0

A bell or Gaussian empirical curve be it IQ or physical characteristic infers a random variable. Randomness somewhere in the process.

Disagree--a bell curve infers multiple random variables. A single random variable gives all outcomes of equal probability.

 

[untermensche]

Intelligence is how you solve problems.

Not a score on a test.

But it doesn't matter the path you take to the answer, only that you get there.

Not if you care about intelligence as opposed to the banality of a correct answer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do human heights cluster about a mean?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...orm=IEQNAI&selectedindex=0&exph=0&expw=0&vt=0

A bell or Gaussian empirical curve be it IQ or physical characteristic infers a random variable. Randomness somewhere in the process.

Look at any biological feature across a random subsection of a population of a large enough size and you will find normal distributions.

Look at the speed of geese or the strength of pitbulls or the intelligence of mice.

Or the score on a complex test.

Normal distributions.

That is life.

1) What are you arguing here? He's simply saying that such a distribution implies a random factor (which I corrected to implying multiple random factors). Thus you are not rebutting him at all.

2) Some features are controlled by a single gene and thus do not exhibit a bell curve. For example, eye color and blood type.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You know Saint Exupery's "Little Prince" and the drawing of the elephant inside a boa constrictor?

No I don't.

Show me the shape you think you can produce and give me a link to some researcher that has produced something besides a normal curve with a written test.

You're basically saying you can produce a lot of questions that people with a lower IQ score can answer that people with a higher score can't.

Nope. It's been a long-standing problem in teaching programming--some people get it, some don't. The result is grades in the early classes tend to produce a double-humped curve--the lower hump from those who don't get it, the upper hump from those who do. There are no magical questions that the dumb ones get right.