The inner world of a prostitute

[Jolly_Penguin]

Almost everything you've posted since.

I see through your thinly veiled attempts at trying to come across as a good person. But you're not. That's the problem here.

If Koy wants to try being civil, should we not encourage that?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Almost everything you've posted since.

I see through your thinly veiled attempts at trying to come across as a good person. But you're not. That's the problem here.

Yeah, no, that's clearly not the problem here.

 

[Toni]

As far as I can tell, no one on this forum is in favor of treating sex workers as criminals. That's a red herring.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

As far as I can tell, no one on this forum is in favor of treating sex workers as criminals. That's a red herring.

Wait. What? Are you are now for legalizing and regulating prostitution, and going after actual sex slavery? Good for you if so.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

/mod

 

[Toni]

As far as I can tell, no one on this forum is in favor of treating sex workers as criminals. That's a red herring.

Wait. What? Are you are now for legalizing and regulating prostitution, and going after actual sex slavery? Good for you if so.

There is zero reason to not go after sex slavery now and there is zero reason to believe that legalization will magically make it 'easier' or more logistically possible or more palatable. That's a red herring.

I am in favor of the Swedish model where the prostitutes are not considered criminals but the customers and pimps are.

But more than that, I am in favor of genuine economic reform that provides better alternatives for all women (and for men, too).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As far as I can tell, no one on this forum is in favor of treating sex workers as criminals. That's a red herring.

Wait. What? Are you are now for legalizing and regulating prostitution, and going after actual sex slavery? Good for you if so.

There is zero reason to not go after sex slavery now and there is zero reason to believe that legalization will magically make it 'easier' or more logistically possible or more palatable. That's a red herring.

I am in favor of the Swedish model where the prostitutes are not considered criminals but the customers and pimps are.

But more than that, I am in favor of genuine economic reform that provides better alternatives for all women (and for men, too).

I don't see anyone who doesn't think we should go after sex slavery. Where we disagree is the best way to do this--history shows us that attempting to stamp out prostitution does not work so we should approach it like we should approach drugs--harm reduction.

 

[Toni]

There is zero reason to not go after sex slavery now and there is zero reason to believe that legalization will magically make it 'easier' or more logistically possible or more palatable. That's a red herring.

I am in favor of the Swedish model where the prostitutes are not considered criminals but the customers and pimps are.

But more than that, I am in favor of genuine economic reform that provides better alternatives for all women (and for men, too).

I don't see anyone who doesn't think we should go after sex slavery. Where we disagree is the best way to do this--history shows us that attempting to stamp out prostitution does not work so we should approach it like we should approach drugs--harm reduction.

What I hear from those who believe that prostitution should be legalized is that it would make it easier to go after sex trafficking/slavery. I understand that reasoning but it doesn’t seem to be born out in reality.

Are you saying that we need to work harder to eliminate sex trafficking/slavery regardless of whether prostitution is legalized? Because I can agree with that.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

What I hear from those who believe that prostitution should be legalized is that it would make it easier to go after sex trafficking/slavery. I understand that reasoning but it doesn’t seem to be born out in reality.

Are you saying that we need to work harder to eliminate sex trafficking/slavery regardless of whether prostitution is legalized? Because I can agree with that.

Well, is having it be illegal making it easier to go after it? Is stopping sex slavery particularly prioritized by police departments anywhere that prostitution is a crime? Do you have any other examples of where driving an industry underground and ensuring that it's completely run by criminals makes it a safer industry for anyone involved in it?

If you have a legal and regulated prostitution industry, authorities can concentrate on the aspects of that industry which are avoiding the regulation and this would allow them to better target their resources which are more likely to be using sex slavery and less likely to be using consenting adults. Now, whether the police bother to use these tools because they prioritize stopping sex slavery or they don't because they couldn't care less is a completely different issue. They have these better tools at their disposal if they choose to use them and I fail to see any similar tools which a police department in an area where prostitution is illegal could also use to similar effect.

 

[Toni]

What I hear from those who believe that prostitution should be legalized is that it would make it easier to go after sex trafficking/slavery. I understand that reasoning but it doesn’t seem to be born out in reality.

Are you saying that we need to work harder to eliminate sex trafficking/slavery regardless of whether prostitution is legalized? Because I can agree with that.

Well, is having it be illegal making it easier to go after it? Is stopping sex slavery particularly prioritized by police departments anywhere that prostitution is a crime? Do you have any other examples of where driving an industry underground and ensuring that it's completely run by criminals makes it a safer industry for anyone involved in it?

If you have a legal and regulated prostitution industry, authorities can concentrate on the aspects of that industry which are avoiding the regulation and this would allow them to better target their resources which are more likely to be using sex slavery and less likely to be using consenting adults. Now, whether the police bother to use these tools because they prioritize stopping sex slavery or they don't because they couldn't care less is a completely different issue. They have these better tools at their disposal if they choose to use them and I fail to see any similar tools which a police department in an area where prostitution is illegal could also use to similar effect.

I have seen zero evidence that there is greater concern for the plight of prostitutes who are abused by clients and...managers under legalization. Do you have any such evidence or are you speculating?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

There is zero reason to not go after sex slavery now and there is zero reason to believe that legalization will magically make it 'easier' or more logistically possible or more palatable. That's a red herring.

We already covered both of those. And yes, they are your red herrings. As I wrote above, the onus should be on you if you want to restrict people's freedoms and limit their income source possibilities. I say you need a good reason to justify making it illegal to buy sexual services. You haven't provided any other than vague hand waving about trafficking, and then haven't responded when people point out that studies on "trafficking" often include willingly moving to work in an industry as "trafficking".

I am in favor of the Swedish model where the prostitutes are not considered criminals but the customers and pimps are.

That's the model Canada has adopted now too. It is a very stupid model. An industry where its legal to sell but illegal to buy doesn't make the sellers any safer. They still need to keep on the down low, and now they have the added fear of customers thinking they may blackmail them. You claim to have read widely on this topic, but have you read the Bedford decision? I've raised it in every thread on this topic and never has there been a response. It rendered the old prostitution laws unconstitutional because of how they endangered the sex workers. This nordic model doesn't make them any safer.

But more than that, I am in favor of genuine economic reform that provides better alternatives for all women (and for men, too).

As am I, and probably moreso than you. I want universal basic income now, or at least an attempt for it, instead of naysayers who drone on how it can't be done or how the political parties won't allow it to happen.... that's not a reason not to try.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I am in favor of the Swedish model where the prostitutes are not considered criminals but the customers and pimps are.

It doesn't bother you that the Swedish model has been an absolute disaster for Swedish prostitutes? They were better off when they were criminalised and the customers weren't. Then they just had to face jail time now and again. At least their jobs were mostly safe. Now the danger for them is far greater. I think women would rather spend some time in jail then deal with assault and bodily harm.

The top links here is about the Swedish model.

http://www.rosealliance.se/sv/resurser-och-lankar/

http://lastradainternational.org/lsidocs/3049-Levy Sweden.pdf

Here's a study. Granted, not the most rigorous study nor highest credentials of researchers. But the numbers are accurate.

The biggest problem with it is that Swedish prostitutes are the target of lots of social measures intended to pressure them into getting other jobs. Prostitutes have had their children taken away from them, simply because they are prostitutes. I know of two women who have been falsely accused of being prostitutes and had to prove in court that they weren't, just to keep their children. Something very traumatic for any parent.

The problem with the Swedish model is that it's not just that prostitution is legalised. It's to make them come out of hiding so that they can be targeted by the authorities. Something which they are of course reluctant to do.

For example, loads of people who are not prostitutes have joined Rose Alliance just to make it harder for the government to keep track of who is genuinely a prostitute. A form of civil disobedience.

The Swedish model is godawful. Either we treat them like adult human beings who are trusted to take adult decisions about their own bodies, or not. The Swedish model is still yet another method by which to take away agency from women.

I think you need to take a long hard look at why you support the Swedish model. Isn't it just as simple as that you don't like prostitutes? That you don't want women to sell their bodies for sex? If that is so, then why do you feel that way? What on Earth have they ever done to you, to make you dislike them so?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

What I hear from those who believe that prostitution should be legalized is that it would make it easier to go after sex trafficking/slavery. I understand that reasoning but it doesn’t seem to be born out in reality.

Are you saying that we need to work harder to eliminate sex trafficking/slavery regardless of whether prostitution is legalized? Because I can agree with that.

Well, is having it be illegal making it easier to go after it? Is stopping sex slavery particularly prioritized by police departments anywhere that prostitution is a crime? Do you have any other examples of where driving an industry underground and ensuring that it's completely run by criminals makes it a safer industry for anyone involved in it?

If you have a legal and regulated prostitution industry, authorities can concentrate on the aspects of that industry which are avoiding the regulation and this would allow them to better target their resources which are more likely to be using sex slavery and less likely to be using consenting adults. Now, whether the police bother to use these tools because they prioritize stopping sex slavery or they don't because they couldn't care less is a completely different issue. They have these better tools at their disposal if they choose to use them and I fail to see any similar tools which a police department in an area where prostitution is illegal could also use to similar effect.

I have seen zero evidence that there is greater concern for the plight of prostitutes who are abused by clients and...managers under legalization. Do you have any such evidence or are you speculating?

Again, that's a separate issue unless you're making the claim that there is this greater concern for the abused prostitutes under an illegal system, so I don't know how your response references what I said. Up here in Canada, though, police are making an effort to target the sex trafficking industry without concerning themselves with the consensual prostitution industry, so it's quite possible for them to do so. They could also do the exact same thing and devote their resources to this if consensual prostitution were illegal, though, so the whole "greater concern for the plight of prostitutes who are abused" thing isn't dependent on one system or the other. However, a legal and regulated system they would have more tools to help them identify those aspects of the industry which were trying to skirt the regulations and better focus on targeting the abusers.

If your main concern about this industry is reducing the amount of abuse for prostitutes, I really don't see how it is that you feel that keeping prostitution totally illegal is the optimal way to address that concern.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The biggest problem with it is that Swedish prostitutes are the target of lots of social measures intended to pressure them into getting other jobs. Prostitutes have had their children taken away from them, simply because they are prostitutes. I know of two women who have been falsely accused of being prostitutes and had to prove in court that they weren't, just to keep their children. Something very traumatic for any parent.

The problem with the Swedish model is that it's not just that prostitution is legalised. It's to make them come out of hiding so that they can be targeted by the authorities. Something which they are of course reluctant to do.

For example, loads of people who are not prostitutes have joined Rose Alliance just to make it harder for the government to keep track of who is genuinely a prostitute. A form of civil disobedience.

The Swedish model is godawful. Either we treat them like adult human beings who are trusted to take adult decisions about their own bodies, or not. The Swedish model is still yet another method by which to take away agency from women.

To be fair, you wouldn't have to include these problems under a system where sex is legal to sell but illegal to buy. That seems to be something separate that Sweden has implemented. It could be done without social measures intended to pressure them to get other jobs.

But I don't see how a selling is legal and buying is illegal model would in itself help prostitutes in any way. If it is illegal to buy what they are selling, they are pushed right back into the shadows where life is more dangerous. In Toronto this is only alleviated by the fact that the Police target trafficking and abuse in prostitution rather than prostitution itself, which is something they would also be doing if prostitution was fully legal.

 

[Toni]

I have seen zero evidence that there is greater concern for the plight of prostitutes who are abused by clients and...managers under legalization. Do you have any such evidence or are you speculating?

Again, that's a separate issue unless you're making the claim that there is this greater concern for the abused prostitutes under an illegal system, so I don't know how your response references what I said. Up here in Canada, though, police are making an effort to target the sex trafficking industry without concerning themselves with the consensual prostitution industry, so it's quite possible for them to do so. They could also do the exact same thing and devote their resources to this if consensual prostitution were illegal, though, so the whole "greater concern for the plight of prostitutes who are abused" thing isn't dependent on one system or the other. However, a legal and regulated system they would have more tools to help them identify those aspects of the industry which were trying to skirt the regulations and better focus on targeting the abusers.

If your main concern about this industry is reducing the amount of abuse for prostitutes, I really don't see how it is that you feel that keeping prostitution totally illegal is the optimal way to address that concern.

The benefits I've read people put forth for legalization of prostitutes are couched in terms of 'protecting prostitutes' but no one has actually backed that up in any way. Prostitutes would still be abused and police/society as a whole would be just as unlikely to do anything about it as they are now.

I'd like to hear more about how a legal and regulated system would have more tools to help them identify those aspects of the industry that they don't already have. Can you give specific examples?

It was already cited (and not contradicted) that prostitutes report only about 26% of the rapes they experience. According to the DOJ, the general population only reports about 20% of rapes committed so as much as I understand the logic, it doesn't seem that this would really improve if prostitution were to be regarded as merely another career path, presumably for girls and women.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The biggest problem with it is that Swedish prostitutes are the target of lots of social measures intended to pressure them into getting other jobs. Prostitutes have had their children taken away from them, simply because they are prostitutes. I know of two women who have been falsely accused of being prostitutes and had to prove in court that they weren't, just to keep their children. Something very traumatic for any parent.

The problem with the Swedish model is that it's not just that prostitution is legalised. It's to make them come out of hiding so that they can be targeted by the authorities. Something which they are of course reluctant to do.

For example, loads of people who are not prostitutes have joined Rose Alliance just to make it harder for the government to keep track of who is genuinely a prostitute. A form of civil disobedience.

The Swedish model is godawful. Either we treat them like adult human beings who are trusted to take adult decisions about their own bodies, or not. The Swedish model is still yet another method by which to take away agency from women.

To be fair, you wouldn't have to include these problems under a system where sex is legal to sell but illegal to buy. That seems to be something separate that Sweden has implemented. It could be done without social measures intended to pressure them to get other jobs.

But I don't see how a selling is legal and buying is illegal model would in itself help prostitutes in any way. If it is illegal to buy what they are selling, they are pushed right back into the shadows where life is more dangerous. In Toronto this is only alleviated by the fact that the Police target trafficking and abuse in prostitution rather than prostitution itself, which is something they would also be doing if prostitution was fully legal.

The goal is obviously to stop prostitution. The big question is why? Why should we stop prostitution?

I see prostitutes as providing a valuable service. They help teach us to be better lovers. To love ourselves more. Who could possibly have a problem with that?

But we know the answer to that. Moralistic kill joys who want everybody to be as miserable as they are. If they're too cowardly to get help to get into contact with their own sexual being they will try their damndest to prevent other people doing so. It's just sad.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Toni keeps shifting the burden of proof. She keeps asking for evidence that legalization makes it safer. She hasnt responded to either the Bedford decision or the Valerie Scott video I posted. But regardless, even if legalizing it had no safety improvement, so what? The default should be freedom and not oppression. If she has no good reason for it to be illegal, it should be legal.

When hand waving at "trafficking" is done, we have yet to see any data that actual sex slavery increases with legalization, since the studies presented on this include willingly moving to areas where prostitution is legal to engage in the trade as "trafficking".

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I'd like to hear more about how a legal and regulated system would have more tools to help them identify those aspects of the industry that they don't already have. Can you give specific examples?

Seems obvious to me. If police are not wasting time going after consenting adults, there will be more resources available to go after sex slavery etc. Toronto is doing this. Some police in the US may have the same approach, but some won't.

There is also the point that if it's legal and well regulated, even licensed, then the illegal stuff will stand out more and not be able to hide as easily. Yes, police are today can go to the equivalents of Backpage and quickly find some women working as prostitutes. But how exactly are they to tell who is engaging in unwilling, coerced or sex slavery activity?

It was already cited (and not contradicted) that prostitutes report only about 26% of the rapes they experience. According to the DOJ, the general population only reports about 20% of rapes committed so as much as I understand the logic, it doesn't seem that this would really improve if prostitution were to be regarded as merely another career path, presumably for girls and women.

How does the DOJ get these numbers? If it isn't reported how do they know it happened?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Toni keeps shifting the burden of proof. She keeps asking for evidence that legalization makes it safer. She hasnt responded to either the Bedford decision or the Valerie Scott video I posted. But regardless, even if legalizing it had no safety improvement, so what? The default should be freedom and not oppression. If she has no good reason for it to be illegal, it should be legal.

When hand waving at "trafficking" is done, we have yet to see any data that actual sex slavery increases with legalization, since the studies presented on this include willingly moving to areas where prostitution is legal to engage in the trade as "trafficking".

We know why. Those who want prostitution to be illegal are just moralistic. They refuse to see women as sexual beings with agency over it. It's just the old "we much control female sexuality for the spiritual purity of our nation". The same horrendous people who ruin anything fun by saying "but think of the children". That's why the arguments against prostitution are so damn stupid. They're not based on anything rational. It's just a formulation of ickyness. I don't want to have gay sex so therefor homosexuality should be illegal. Same thing.

At every turn we should expose these people as the morally corrupt people they are. The amount of damage these people have historically caused prostitutes, and are still causing prostitutes, means we can't be too firm in our resolve to fight for what's right. The situation for prostitutes is still horrendous in most places... because it's illegal.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The Dutch prostitutes liked me so much they invited me back in the end of May. It's a private party in a brothel. It's closed down for a friends and family type affair. Party all weekend in a big luxurious house near the sea. I'll be sleeping in one of the (I'm sure cum soaked) fuck rooms. I'll again be going with my Copenhagen prostitute friend. Security will be tight, phone cameras banned, because famous people will be attending. People who are friends but can't, for image reasons, be associated with a brothel. Really sad. Our society. I've also been told a couple of Stockholm prostitutes will show up. It'll be interesting to hear about their experiences first hand.

That said, I never ask any of the prostitutes anything about their lives, unless they freely share. I don't want to be "that guy". The nosy outsider wanting to hear all the juicy stuff. If things don't pop up organically in conversation, I won't ask. I make an effort to not treat then as freaks. Nor put them on a pedestal, nor look down at them. I try to meet them as equals.

I'm delving deeper and deeper into the magical mystery world of the prostitutes.
/Alice in Cumland.