Game of Thrones - Season 8 (spoilers)

[Koyaanisqatsi]

One fan theory I read was that Bran was “in” the horse (or took agency of the horse) or something like that. Seems good enough to account for it.

As for Dany, I agree it was in her character, but I just don’t think it was foreshadowed enough. I would have preferred something a little more leading up. That or not have the implication that she did it because she got left out of her boyfriend’s reindeer games after the white walkers were defeated.

 

[bilby]

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I think Drogon is bringing Dany to the priestesses to get her resurrected.

Can we get another season now?

 

[ronburgundy]

Episode 6 was hamstrung by Episode 5 and had to somehow resolve a ridiculous unexplainable plot swerve, and did so rather poorly.

What plot swerve? That she destroyed the city? That was highly predictable and quite in line with her character. She has always shown signs of emotional instability, self-righteousness, and murderous vengeful rage. Since she first hatch her plan to regain the throne, she made it clear that she didn't care if she killed everyone in Westeros in the process.

She skipped over the killing a couple innocents to kill lots of bad guys transition into unfettered slaughter of innocents.

She had repeatedly (since season 2) promised her murderous blood thristy army that they would "lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground". She showed little problem with jumping in the sack with a murderous rapist (Drago) and taking control of the murdering rapist Dothracki. Drago explictly promised the Dothracki he would kill all the men and rape all the women in Westeros and Dany later endorsed that very promise when trying to motivate them. She killed hundreds of people needlessly and against rational advice. She often threatened authoritarian rule over the world, killed with glee, and murdered Sam Tarley's father and brother because they would not bend the knee and swear unquestioned obedience to her authority. Throughout the series, she gave those enslaved by others the "freedom" to do her bidding, and killed anyone who didn't obey her.

Anyone who didn't see her destruction of King's Landing coming for several season wasn't paying attention.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

She skipped over the killing a couple innocents to kill lots of bad guys transition into unfettered slaughter of innocents.

She had repeatedly (since season 2) promised her murderous blood thristy army that they would "lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground". She showed little problem with jumping in the sack with a murderous rapist (Drago) and taking control of the murdering rapist Dothracki. Drago explictly promised the Dothracki he would kill all the men and rape all the women in Westeros and Dany later endorsed that very promise when trying to motivate them. She killed hundreds of people needlessly and against rational advice. She often threatened authoritarian rule over the world, killed with glee, and murdered Sam Tarley's father and brother because they would not bend the knee and swear unquestioned obedience to her authority. Throughout the series, she gave those enslaved by others the "freedom" to do her bidding, and killed anyone who didn't obey her.

Anyone who didn't see her destruction of King's Landing coming for several season wasn't paying attention.

You are forgetting about the part where she had already won! Had she decided to go out first with the dragon and burn shit a bit, then visually we see her lose control, fine... but the city was hers. In very good condition. She could get her dragon to burn Cercei. Win win. It is the whole, 'well, I got everything I wanted, but let's salt the earth' thing that makes absolutely no sense.

 

[ronburgundy]

She skipped over the killing a couple innocents to kill lots of bad guys transition into unfettered slaughter of innocents.

She had repeatedly (since season 2) promised her murderous blood thristy army that they would "lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground". She showed little problem with jumping in the sack with a murderous rapist (Drago) and taking control of the murdering rapist Dothracki. Drago explictly promised the Dothracki he would kill all the men and rape all the women in Westeros and Dany later endorsed that very promise when trying to motivate them. She killed hundreds of people needlessly and against rational advice. She often threatened authoritarian rule over the world, killed with glee, and murdered Sam Tarley's father and brother because they would not bend the knee and swear unquestioned obedience to her authority. Throughout the series, she gave those enslaved by others the "freedom" to do her bidding, and killed anyone who didn't obey her.

Anyone who didn't see her destruction of King's Landing coming for several season wasn't paying attention.

You are forgetting about the part where she had already won! Had she decided to go out first with the dragon and burn shit a bit, then visually we see her lose control, fine... but the city was hers. In very good condition. She could get her dragon to burn Cercei. Win win. It is the whole, 'well, I got everything I wanted, but let's salt the earth' thing that makes absolutely no sense.

"Makes no sense" assumes level headed rationality, which she repeatedly and increasingly showed she lacked. Several times, in prior seasons she was told "you shouldn't burn the city if you don't have to" and she reacted with indifference to the advice. Many of her killings were counterproductive, cruel, and made no sense.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So, what the fuck was with Arya's horse? She was like the image of death and vengeance riding out of the destroyed city, angry about the death of all the innocents and then … does absolutely nothing in the last episode and then randomly decides that she's a sailor now?

 

[bilby]

So, what the fuck was with Arya's horse? She was like the image of death and vengeance riding out of the destroyed city, angry about the death of all the innocents and then … does absolutely nothing in the last episode and then randomly decides that she's a sailor now?

Well when she came riding out of the city, she told Jon Snow that she was going to have to assassinate Dany, but he pointed out that she had already had her big finale by killing the Night King, so it was his bloody turn and she should find a new hobby, because the scriptwriters had no clue what to do with an assassin (and had apparently completely forgotten her ability to wear other people's faces).

Personally I would have had Jon kill Dany, and then turn out to be Arya in disguise. But that would have been too interesting. It's abundantly clear that the whole of series 8 had no other purpose than to quickly slap a band-aid on the bleeding stump of the show, which would otherwise have required at least another eight seasons (and a writer of GRRM's ability, but with a thousand times his motivation) to finish properly. We can probably count ourselves lucky that they didn't just add a last episode to Season 7 in which Ned Stark wakes up and says "I had the most terrible dream".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm thinking they really missed the boat on a potential spin-off. After Jon stabs Daenerys, they could have spent the rest of the episode having Jon and Arya trying to fool people into thinking everything was normal and Daenerys was still alive... you know... like Weekend at Bernies, but with a dragon.

Jon standing in front of the assembly at the top of the stairs, Arya hidden from behind, moving Dany's limbs... and Jon telling the people "On second thought, we'll just work on rebuilding King's Landing. Dracarys! *waves*"

Strap her to the dragon, have him fly her a round for a bit... really the spin-off show (The Starks and The Sleepy Queen) writes itself! Today's episode, The Iron Bank comes to visit the Queen about a proposition for a loan.

Banker/Holmes' brother: Are you sure you are feeling alright?
Jon as Dany: You know me, so forgetful... I'd lose my head if it weren't attached.
*her head falls off*

Meanwhile next week, Daario Naharis is coming for a visit and he is feeling a bit frisky... *shows Arya startled with eyes wide open*

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So, what the fuck was with Arya's horse? She was like the image of death and vengeance riding out of the destroyed city, angry about the death of all the innocents and then … does absolutely nothing in the last episode and then randomly decides that she's a sailor now?

Well when she came riding out of the city, she told Jon Snow that she was going to have to assassinate Dany, but he pointed out that she had already had her big finale by killing the Night King, so it was his bloody turn and she should find a new hobby

So, she got into boating. That makes sense then. I had previously thought that her randomly deciding that she now wants to be an explorer and leaving her family behind after her character motivation for the past several seasons had been centrally focused around getting home to her family with no interest in travelling the larger world was a massive plot hole and just plain shitty writing, but now I see that I was wrong and it was all properly set up.

 

[ronburgundy]

So, what the fuck was with Arya's horse? She was like the image of death and vengeance riding out of the destroyed city, angry about the death of all the innocents and then … does absolutely nothing in the last episode and then randomly decides that she's a sailor now?

Well when she came riding out of the city, she told Jon Snow that she was going to have to assassinate Dany, but he pointed out that she had already had her big finale by killing the Night King, so it was his bloody turn and she should find a new hobby

So, she got into boating. That makes sense then. I had previously thought that her randomly deciding that she now wants to be an explorer and leaving her family behind after her character motivation for the past several seasons had been centrally focused around getting home to her family with no interest in travelling the larger world was a massive plot hole and just plain shitty writing, but now I see that I was wrong and it was all properly set up.

Sorry, but like Dany's needless cruelty, that also did not come out of nowhere. It came out of "no one". Back in Season 6, when she was training to be "No one", she had the following exchange with the actress from the play who she refused to poison.

Lady Crane asks Arya to travel with them to Pentos.
Arya declines, and when Lady Crane asks her where she'll go, she replies, "What's west of Westeros?"
Lady Crane says she doesn't know, to which Arya responds, "Nobody does. That's where all the maps stop."
Lady Crane says "The edge of the world", and Arya says, "I'd like to see that".

Also, I don't think simply getting home to her family accurately reflects her motivation throughout the series. Back in season 4, Brienne came to bring her to her family and she ran away from her and away from her remaining family to go to Braavos instead to learn how to be an assassin so she could kill those on her list, which was her real motivation for most of the series. Once everyone on her list was dead, she returned to the idea of exploring what was beyond the known as she'd mentioned two seasons earlier. More generally, playing a normal expected family or societal role was never part of her character. Her desire to go off and do her own thing and see what's beyond what is known seemed rather in line with her nature to me.

Perhaps b/c a rewatched all prior seasons just before this one, I saw more of the "set up" of this and of Dany's destruction that others are saying were random and out of nowhere.

 

[blastula]

at 4:20

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/7h2B6roXenQ?t=260[/YOUTUBE]

But I suspect she's really going west to look for Ilyn Payne.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are forgetting about the part where she had already won! Had she decided to go out first with the dragon and burn shit a bit, then visually we see her lose control, fine... but the city was hers. In very good condition. She could get her dragon to burn Cercei. Win win. It is the whole, 'well, I got everything I wanted, but let's salt the earth' thing that makes absolutely no sense.

"Makes no sense" assumes level headed rationality, which she repeatedly and increasingly showed she lacked. Several times, in prior seasons she was told "you shouldn't burn the city if you don't have to" and she reacted with indifference to the advice. Many of her killings were counterproductive, cruel, and made no sense.

That context was about burning a city to defeat her enemy. The city gave up. They gave up in fear. She said she wanted fear. She got it.

Her final transition was in no way organic.

 

[ronburgundy]

You are forgetting about the part where she had already won! Had she decided to go out first with the dragon and burn shit a bit, then visually we see her lose control, fine... but the city was hers. In very good condition. She could get her dragon to burn Cercei. Win win. It is the whole, 'well, I got everything I wanted, but let's salt the earth' thing that makes absolutely no sense.

"Makes no sense" assumes level headed rationality, which she repeatedly and increasingly showed she lacked. Several times, in prior seasons she was told "you shouldn't burn the city if you don't have to" and she reacted with indifference to the advice. Many of her killings were counterproductive, cruel, and made no sense.

That context was about burning a city to defeat her enemy. The city gave up. They gave up in fear. She said she wanted fear. She got it.

Her final transition was in no way organic.

No, she made it clear several times she wanted to kill all their soldiers and destroy all the houses and buildings of her enemy (and allow her husband and his army to rape all the women), and did not qualify it with "but only if that is absolutely neccessary to win." That is why Tyrion and others repeatedly pleaded with her to show restraint, b/c it was clear she lacked it. Murdering Sam's father and brother had nothing to do with a military victory, she did it out of pure violent spite for them not immediately being willing to bow to her.

She was not ultimately a good person and that was increasingly clear with each season. Her rhetoric about "breaking chains" was in the service of increasing her own power and not a sincere humanitarian concern for people to be actually free. She would never have allowed the North to be free, proving that actual real freedom from tyranny was not her goal. She wanted to rule everything.

I think many fans had a myopic simplistic view of her as the noble heroine simply b/c she was not as simplistically evil as Cersei and b/c she gave some slave owners their just-deserts in the process of creating an army for herself.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That context was about burning a city to defeat her enemy. The city gave up. They gave up in fear. She said she wanted fear. She got it.

Her final transition was in no way organic.

No, she made it clear several times she wanted to kill all their soldiers and destroy all the houses and buildings of her enemy (and allow her husband and his army to rape all the women), and did not qualify it with "but only if that is absolutely neccessary to win." That is why Tyrion and others repeatedly pleaded with her to show restraint, b/c it was clear she lacked it. Murdering Sam's father and brother had nothing to do with a military victory, she did it out of pure violent spite for them not immediately being willing to bow to her.

Ringing the bells was the city bowing.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So, she got into boating. That makes sense then. I had previously thought that her randomly deciding that she now wants to be an explorer and leaving her family behind after her character motivation for the past several seasons had been centrally focused around getting home to her family with no interest in travelling the larger world was a massive plot hole and just plain shitty writing, but now I see that I was wrong and it was all properly set up.

Sorry, but like Dany's needless cruelty, that also did not come out of nowhere. It came out of "no one". Back in Season 6, when she was training to be "No one", she had the following exchange with the actress from the play who she refused to poison.

Lady Crane asks Arya to travel with them to Pentos.
Arya declines, and when Lady Crane asks her where she'll go, she replies, "What's west of Westeros?"
Lady Crane says she doesn't know, to which Arya responds, "Nobody does. That's where all the maps stop."
Lady Crane says "The edge of the world", and Arya says, "I'd like to see that".

Also, I don't think simply getting home to her family accurately reflects her motivation throughout the series. Back in season 4, Brienne came to bring her to her family and she ran away from her and away from her remaining family to go to Braavos instead to learn how to be an assassin so she could kill those on her list, which was her real motivation for most of the series. Once everyone on her list was dead, she returned to the idea of exploring what was beyond the known as she'd mentioned two seasons earlier. More generally, playing a normal expected family or societal role was never part of her character. Her desire to go off and do her own thing and see what's beyond what is known seemed rather in line with her nature to me.

Perhaps b/c a rewatched all prior seasons just before this one, I saw more of the "set up" of this and of Dany's destruction that others are saying were random and out of nowhere.

So ... one fucking line from a couple of years ago? That’s your definition of setting up a series ending character trait?

 

[bilby]

at 4:20

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/7h2B6roXenQ?t=260[/YOUTUBE]

But I suspect she's really going west to look for Ilyn Payne.

Well she's going to have a major headache if she finds another land. What will she call it? 'Westeros' is taken, and I can't see the inhabitants of either Bron's six kingdoms, or Sansa's kingdom in the north, accepting a change of name to 'Middleeros'. So 'Evenwesteros'? 'Morewestthanwesteros'? 'Westesteros'? (Though the latter makes for an even worse problem if there turns out to be land even farther west again).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

at 4:20

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/7h2B6roXenQ?t=260[/YOUTUBE]

But I suspect she's really going west to look for Ilyn Payne.

Well she's going to have a major headache if she finds another land. What will she call it? 'Westeros' is taken, and I can't see the inhabitants of either Bron's six kingdoms, or Sansa's kingdom in the north, accepting a change of name to 'Middleeros'. So 'Evenwesteros'? 'Morewestthanwesteros'? 'Westesteros'? (Though the latter makes for an even worse problem if there turns out to be land even farther west again).

Wouldn't her brother know the answer to what is west of it... and be a living, breathing encyclopedia of anything that ever happened there?

 

[bilby]

at 4:20

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/7h2B6roXenQ?t=260[/YOUTUBE]

But I suspect she's really going west to look for Ilyn Payne.

Well she's going to have a major headache if she finds another land. What will she call it? 'Westeros' is taken, and I can't see the inhabitants of either Bron's six kingdoms, or Sansa's kingdom in the north, accepting a change of name to 'Middleeros'. So 'Evenwesteros'? 'Morewestthanwesteros'? 'Westesteros'? (Though the latter makes for an even worse problem if there turns out to be land even farther west again).

Wouldn't her brother know the answer to what is west of it... and be a living, breathing encyclopedia of anything that ever happened there?

Well, yes. Exploration is pretty much redundant if you have access to the three-eyed raven. As is surveillance. Bran is going to be better informed about every last plot and crime, however minor, than Joe Stalin could have ever dreamed of.