Are Gay Men Less Aggressive and Warlike?

[Rhea]

Another discussion sparked a curiosity and I don’t know the answer. Asking here.

It is said that in general women are more cooperative and men are more antagonistic/warlike. How do gay men fit in to that pattern? Do they have a pattern? Scholarly answers appreciated. Feel free to also discuss whether my first assertion is even true, but what this thread is really about is discussion of aggressive behavior and whether gay men are any different from straight men, or transgender or non-binary.

 

[rousseau]

Without spending a long amount of time searching for articles, I've heard a few things about this:

- Aggression is basically hormonal (Testosterone)
- Homosexuality arises due to fringe hormonal levels (either too low, or too high testosterone - this is probably a simplification)

If you look closely you'll notice two brands of gay men - those who are extremely effeminate, and those who aren't really that effeminate. The former are certainly less aggressive due to lower levels of testosterone, while the latter maybe not as much.

 

[rousseau]

I'd also hazard a guess that lesbians are typically more masculine than the general female population, and probably also more aggressive.

 

[Rhea]

Is it true that homosexuality corollates with current hormone levels? I did not think so because giving people hormones does not change their sexuality. Post-menopausal women do not tend to become either gay or more aggressive. I don’t think?

 

[rousseau]

Is it true that homosexuality corollates with current hormone levels? I did not think so because giving people hormones does not change their sexuality. Post-menopausal women do not tend to become either gay or more aggressive. I don’t think?

I've seen a study that suggested this, but as I mentioned my post is likely a simplification. The reality is very likely much more complex.

But in general yes - gay men have a different mix of hormones relative to the male population, as do lesbian women.

 

[Rhea]

Is it true that homosexuality corollates with current hormone levels? I did not think so because giving people hormones does not change their sexuality. Post-menopausal women do not tend to become either gay or more aggressive. I don’t think?

I've seen a study that suggested this, but as I mentioned my post is likely a simplification. The reality is very likely much more complex.

But in general yes - gay men have a different mix of hormones relative to the male population, as do lesbian women.

That surprises me because there is just no sign that post-menopausal women, who have a significant hormone change, tend to change their sexuality or their agression. With such a massive control group, I would expect the signal to be blindingly clear if it were true.

 

[rousseau]

Is it true that homosexuality corollates with current hormone levels? I did not think so because giving people hormones does not change their sexuality. Post-menopausal women do not tend to become either gay or more aggressive. I don’t think?

I've seen a study that suggested this, but as I mentioned my post is likely a simplification. The reality is very likely much more complex.

But in general yes - gay men have a different mix of hormones relative to the male population, as do lesbian women.

That surprises me because there is just no sign that post-menopausal women, who have a significant hormone change, tend to change their sexuality or their agression. With such a massive control group, I would expect the signal to be blindingly clear if it were true.

I'm attempting to give you a simple answer based on what I know. If you want complete accuracy you'll need to spend some time parsing through journals. Human physiology and psychology is very complex, and it's quite likely that even scientists are not 100% clear on this issue.

Needless to say we know that sexuality is genetic and that gay men/women express different psychological characteristics. We also know that hormonal changes affect our psychological experience. So it's likely that there are heritable genetic products in the body that account for these differences.

 

[Bronzeage]

I have a friend who lives in the Bay Area of California. She used to work at a shelter for battered women. Later she worked in a shelter for people in gay and lesbian relationships. She said the injuries sustained by women at the hands of male partners did not prepare her for the brutality she saw between gay men. When gay relationships turn violent, it quickly escalates to serious injury.

I'm sure violent gay partners are a very small percent of all gay men and probably the same percent as violent men in heterosexual relationships. However, there is no reason to think any man who may seem to have feminine mannerisms won't turn violent when threatened and provoked.

 

[rousseau]

That surprises me because there is just no sign that post-menopausal women, who have a significant hormone change, tend to change their sexuality or their agression. With such a massive control group, I would expect the signal to be blindingly clear if it were true.

I'm attempting to give you a simple answer based on what I know. If you want complete accuracy you'll need to spend some time parsing through journals. Human physiology and psychology is very complex, and it's quite likely that even scientists are not 100% clear on this issue.

Needless to say we know that sexuality is genetic and that gay men/women express different psychological characteristics. We also know that hormonal changes affect our psychological experience. So it's likely that there are heritable genetic products in the body that account for these differences.

I should add the caveat though that the study I'm referencing mentioned atypical hormonal characteristics in the parents, I just assumed hormonal differences in the children. This study seems to give a sense of that:

https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/152/8/2937/2457178

Many people believe that sexual orientation (homosexuality vs. heterosexuality) is determined by education and social constraints. There are, however, a large number of studies indicating that prenatal factors have an important influence on this critical feature of human sexuality. Sexual orientation is a sexually differentiated trait (over 90% of men are attracted to women and vice versa). In animals and men, many sexually differentiated characteristics are organized during early life by sex steroids, and one can wonder whether the same mechanism also affects human sexual orientation. Two types of evidence support this notion. First, multiple sexually differentiated behavioral, physiological, or even morphological traits are significantly different in homosexual and heterosexual populations. Because some of these traits are known to be organized by prenatal steroids, including testosterone, these differences suggest that homosexual subjects were, on average, exposed to atypical endocrine conditions during development. Second, clinical conditions associated with significant endocrine changes during embryonic life often result in an increased incidence of homosexuality. It seems therefore that the prenatal endocrine environment has a significant influence on human sexual orientation but a large fraction of the variance in this behavioral characteristic remains unexplained to date. Genetic differences affecting behavior either in a direct manner or by changing embryonic hormone secretion or action may also be involved. How these biological prenatal factors interact with postnatal social factors to determine life-long sexual orientation remains to be determined.

 

[Politesse]

I should add the caveat though that the study I'm referencing mentioned atypical hormonal characteristics in the parents, I just assumed hormonal differences in the children. This study seems to give a sense of that:

https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/152/8/2937/2457178

Many people believe that sexual orientation (homosexuality vs. heterosexuality) is determined by education and social constraints. There are, however, a large number of studies indicating that prenatal factors have an important influence on this critical feature of human sexuality. Sexual orientation is a sexually differentiated trait (over 90% of men are attracted to women and vice versa). In animals and men, many sexually differentiated characteristics are organized during early life by sex steroids, and one can wonder whether the same mechanism also affects human sexual orientation. Two types of evidence support this notion. First, multiple sexually differentiated behavioral, physiological, or even morphological traits are significantly different in homosexual and heterosexual populations. Because some of these traits are known to be organized by prenatal steroids, including testosterone, these differences suggest that homosexual subjects were, on average, exposed to atypical endocrine conditions during development. Second, clinical conditions associated with significant endocrine changes during embryonic life often result in an increased incidence of homosexuality. It seems therefore that the prenatal endocrine environment has a significant influence on human sexual orientation but a large fraction of the variance in this behavioral characteristic remains unexplained to date. Genetic differences affecting behavior either in a direct manner or by changing embryonic hormone secretion or action may also be involved. How these biological prenatal factors interact with postnatal social factors to determine life-long sexual orientation remains to be determined.

Pseudo-science. Did you actually read the article? Fifteen lines of weak or tangential evidence do not equal a substantial one.

 

[J842P]

I should add the caveat though that the study I'm referencing mentioned atypical hormonal characteristics in the parents, I just assumed hormonal differences in the children. This study seems to give a sense of that:

https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/152/8/2937/2457178

Many people believe that sexual orientation (homosexuality vs. heterosexuality) is determined by education and social constraints. There are, however, a large number of studies indicating that prenatal factors have an important influence on this critical feature of human sexuality. Sexual orientation is a sexually differentiated trait (over 90% of men are attracted to women and vice versa). In animals and men, many sexually differentiated characteristics are organized during early life by sex steroids, and one can wonder whether the same mechanism also affects human sexual orientation. Two types of evidence support this notion. First, multiple sexually differentiated behavioral, physiological, or even morphological traits are significantly different in homosexual and heterosexual populations. Because some of these traits are known to be organized by prenatal steroids, including testosterone, these differences suggest that homosexual subjects were, on average, exposed to atypical endocrine conditions during development. Second, clinical conditions associated with significant endocrine changes during embryonic life often result in an increased incidence of homosexuality. It seems therefore that the prenatal endocrine environment has a significant influence on human sexual orientation but a large fraction of the variance in this behavioral characteristic remains unexplained to date. Genetic differences affecting behavior either in a direct manner or by changing embryonic hormone secretion or action may also be involved. How these biological prenatal factors interact with postnatal social factors to determine life-long sexual orientation remains to be determined.

Pseudo-science. Did you actually read the article? Fifteen lines of weak or tangential evidence do not equal a substantial one.

That isn't pseudo-science.

 

[ronburgundy]

Is it true that homosexuality corollates with current hormone levels? I did not think so because giving people hormones does not change their sexuality. Post-menopausal women do not tend to become either gay or more aggressive. I don’t think?

Current hormone levels in the blood don't appear to have much impact on sexual orientation, which seems to be largely "set" before birth by hormone-influenced brain developments in-utero. However, differences in hormone levels could still be a by-product of the factors that lead to homosexuality. There appear to be several studies from the 70's claiming lower testosterone level's in gay men, but my breif search didn't find anything more recent. Also, while testosterone levels is linked to physical aggression in males, it may function differently in females, and females may show aggressive behavior in other less physical ways.

 

[Sarpedon]

Hmm, it seems I can think of plenty of homosexual warriors. Probably has the same percentage as the general population. (pun intended)

Also, I would not accept unthinkingly the idea that women are naturally unwarlike. That they commit less violent crime is certain. Whether they would wage less war is questionable. It seems that throughout history such women leaders as there are don't seem to be more peaceful than men.

 

[Bronzeage]

Stereotypes are stereotypical.

The stereotypical effeminate homosexual might be less aggressive and warlike, simply because aggressive and warlike are not considered feminine traits. If that is the only homosexuals one has ever observed, it would be easy to accept the stereotype.

If one wants to judge if homosexuals are less aggressive and warlike, one needs to know all homosexuals. I've known homosexual body builders who turned to steroids to boost muscle mass increase. They become quite aggressive and warlike, but not the least bit homosexual.

If anyone seriously thinks homosexuality tendencies are a matter of hormone level, it would have become the standard treatment in the 20th century. Hormone treatments can be used to reduce sex drive, which might make it appear a homosexual no longer desires men, but actually, he no longer desires anyone.

 

[Valjean]

A female brain in a male body? Less aggressive, I'd venture.

 

[ruby sparks]

Another discussion sparked a curiosity and I don’t know the answer. Asking here.

It is said that in general women are more cooperative and men are more antagonistic/warlike. How do gay men fit in to that pattern? Do they have a pattern? Scholarly answers appreciated. Feel free to also discuss whether my first assertion is even true, but what this thread is really about is discussion of aggressive behavior and whether gay men are any different from straight men, or transgender or non-binary.

My guess would be that there are above-averagely hostile gay men, averagely-hostile gay men and below-averagely hostile gay men, spread out on something like a normal distribution curve. Such a curve might be slighter to the left (if that direction indicates lower hostility) than for straight men. In other words, pick two men (a gay man and a straight man) at random 100 times and the chances are that slightly more of the former will be the less hostile of the two. My guess would be that the differences are not sufficiently great to warrant making it a reliable assumption.

Some quick googling suggests that there is evidence for this (see below for example), but that it is not conclusive.

http://eprints.mdx.ac.uk/9456/1/Aggression.pdf

Why it might be is another question. If it is the case, it could be nature or nurture or more likely a combination of both.

Also, behaviours and attitudes described as antagonistic, aggressive or hostile can take many forms. There is a difference between the affective states and they way they are acted on. I think I remember reading somewhere that for example women 'get angry' as easily as men, but that they tend to process it less often as physical violence. The reasons are unclear. Perhaps something similar may happen between male orientations.

 

[Rhea]

Generally, I would not trust any “scholarly work” done about gays in teh 70s. So that’s not filling in any blanks for me. It is further curious, though, how many different hypotheses there are in this discussion. This suggests that there is not too much data, and none that people here have previously read. Which is a curiosity in itself.

Interesting.

Carry on...

 

[Politesse]

Generally, I would not trust any “scholarly work” done about gays in teh 70s. So that’s not filling in any blanks for me. It is further curious, though, how many different hypotheses there are in this discussion. This suggests that there is not too much data, and none that people here have previously read. Which is a curiosity in itself.

Interesting.

Carry on...

There's not a whole lot of credible data, actually; most of the facts that "everyone knows" about gender and sex come from various generations of popular works.

 

[fromderinside]

Gay doesn't really have anything to do with estrogen - testosterone fractions in the gay one. Gay probably does have something to do with those fractions in others.

 

[ruby sparks]

Generally, I would not trust any “scholarly work” done about gays in teh 70s. So that’s not filling in any blanks for me. It is further curious, though, how many different hypotheses there are in this discussion. This suggests that there is not too much data, and none that people here have previously read. Which is a curiosity in itself.

Interesting.

Carry on...

I think it's fair to say that nothing is conclusive, but the study I posted was from 2006, and cited several other studies from the 1990's onwards. I'm not sure if you were able to access it.