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How far back into Elementary School do we have to go ...

Seems like the fossil-fuel defenders want some way to fight back against wind turbines, to turn the tables on their advocates by claiming that they have bad environmental effects. It's like the bird-shredder issue, a problem for some of the older ones but apparently not for many of the newer ones.
 
Seems like the fossil-fuel defenders want some way to fight back against wind turbines, to turn the tables on their advocates by claiming that they have bad environmental effects. It's like the bird-shredder issue, a problem for some of the older ones but apparently not for many of the newer ones.
Exactly. A problem with birds has got to have a relatively easy solution.

But you have a Congressman here dooming and glooming, but putting the brakes on the claim, 'I'm not saying it is definitely going to happen', more passive aggressive pro-fossil fuel status quo garbage.
 
So, good old Joe Barton was misquoting someone who was misquoting someone who specifically said the effects would be negligible and even those could be easily avoided... in his argument against any amount of wind energy.

I don't think he's at all aware of his mistake. He doesn't have a damn clue about the subject which is why he has no business being on the committee and why the energy industry wants him there.

Joe Barton said:
That is what wind is.
Wouldn't it be ironic if in the interest of global warming we
mandated massive switches to energy, which is a finite
resource, which slows the winds down, which causes the
temperature to go up?

The temperature effect isn't because the wind is slowed. The temperature effect is nocturnal and occurs because the turbulence in the wake of large turbines prevents the atmosphere from decoupling in conditions when it otherwise might. It doesn't warm the whole air column. It just stops the bottom of the column from decoupling in an inversion and getting cold under conditions when radiational cooling is good. The effect is significant locally, not globally. Think of it like using big fans to protect sensitive vegetation from frost on those cold still nights.

Barton cocks it up.
 
Seems like the fossil-fuel defenders want some way to fight back against wind turbines, to turn the tables on their advocates by claiming that they have bad environmental effects. It's like the bird-shredder issue, a problem for some of the older ones but apparently not for many of the newer ones.

The point is that renewables aren't a panacea, they have their own problems which must be addressed.
 
Seems like the fossil-fuel defenders want some way to fight back against wind turbines, to turn the tables on their advocates by claiming that they have bad environmental effects. It's like the bird-shredder issue, a problem for some of the older ones but apparently not for many of the newer ones.

The point is that renewables aren't a panacea, they have their own problems which must be addressed.

Not by wildly exaggerating them.
 
Seems like the fossil-fuel defenders want some way to fight back against wind turbines, to turn the tables on their advocates by claiming that they have bad environmental effects. It's like the bird-shredder issue, a problem for some of the older ones but apparently not for many of the newer ones.
The point is that renewables aren't a panacea, they have their own problems which must be addressed.
That wasn't his concern. He seemed more worried about us running out of wind.
 
That wasn't his concern. He seemed more worried about us running out of wind.
No, he doesn't. He is not concerned about running out of wind. It only appears that way in the out of context quote given above.

Firstly: I do not deny antropogenic global warming; what I can follow of the science seems to fully support a significant human contribution to rising average temperature trends.

Second: I don't care one whit about this particular person's views or lack of, beliefs or lack of, or opinions; I care only about providing reasonable and honest context for the quote being discussed.

That said, here is the context and the entirety of the comment made by Representative Barlow, on Page 90 of the Transcript, beginning on line 1684:
Mr. {Barton.} Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I ask my questions, I am going to read a paragraph from Dr. Apt's statement or paper that he wrote because we are here debating a renewable energy standard because we think that there is a theory that manmade emissions, primarily from fossil fuels like coal, which reduce amounts of CO2, are causing climate change, i.e., the temperature to rise, and one of the solutions being proposed is an RES that is going to rely fairly heavily on wind power, which obviously doesn't create CO2. I am going to read a paragraph which is if true very ironic, and this is from Dr. Apt's paper and I quote: ``Wind energy is a finite resource. At large scale, slowing down the wind by using its energy to turn turbines has environmental consequences. A group of researchers at Princeton University,'' which is in New Jersey, parenthetically ``found that wind farms may change the mixing of air near the surface, drying the soil near the site. At planetary scales, David Keith, who was then at Carnegie Mellon, and coworkers found that if wind supplied 10 percent of expected global electricity demand in 2100, which is a number of years off, the resulting change in the earth's atmospheric energy might cause some regions of the world to experience temperature change of approximately 1 degree Centigrade,'' which I think is about 1-1/2 degrees or 1.6 degrees Fahrenheit. Now, wind is God's way of balancing heat. Wind is the way you shift heat from areas where it is hotter to areas where it is cooler. That is what wind is. Wouldn't it be ironic if in the interest of global warming we mandated massive switches to energy, which is a finite resource, which slows the winds down, which causes the temperature to go up? Now, I am not saying that is going to happen, Mr. Chairman, but that is definitely something on the massive scale--I mean, it does make some sense. You stop something. You can't transfer that heat and the heat goes up. It is just something to think about.
 
That wasn't his concern. He seemed more worried about us running out of wind.

The quote does *NOT* represent the position he's showing.
Bullshit! He read some stuff from a report (which apparently misquoted another report). He then paraphrases the warnings, but steps back just a little from it, in the typical passive aggressive bullshit way the right-wing has mastered.

I'm not saying that using wind turbines will cause global warming to increase, I'm just saying that this report that I'm quoting from (and it is a college paper, which I'd usually scoff at, but because it confirms my bias, I'll quote it till the cows come home) states that using wind power, wind is finite so the winds will slow down and temperatures will rise. I'm not saying that will happen, but this paper says it will, not that I'm saying it will.
 
The quote does *NOT* represent the position he's showing.
Bullshit! He read some stuff from a report (which apparently misquoted another report). He then paraphrases the warnings, but steps back just a little from it, in the typical passive aggressive bullshit way the right-wing has mastered.

I'm not saying that using wind turbines will cause global warming to increase, I'm just saying that this report that I'm quoting from (and it is a college paper, which I'd usually scoff at, but because it confirms my bias, I'll quote it till the cows come home) states that using wind power, wind is finite so the winds will slow down and temperatures will rise. I'm not saying that will happen, but this paper says it will, not that I'm saying it will.

Nothing in what you've just paraphrased could reasonably be construed as "running out of wind", which was what you claimed he was concerned about:
The point is that renewables aren't a panacea, they have their own problems which must be addressed.
That wasn't his concern. He seemed more worried about us running out of wind.

You appear to have contradicted yourself, and now seem to be supporting Loren Pechtel's claim.
 
The quote does *NOT* represent the position he's showing.
Bullshit! He read some stuff from a report (which apparently misquoted another report). He then paraphrases the warnings, but steps back just a little from it, in the typical passive aggressive bullshit way the right-wing has mastered.

I'm not saying that using wind turbines will cause global warming to increase, I'm just saying that this report that I'm quoting from (and it is a college paper, which I'd usually scoff at, but because it confirms my bias, I'll quote it till the cows come home) states that using wind power, wind is finite so the winds will slow down and temperatures will rise. I'm not saying that will happen, but this paper says it will, not that I'm saying it will.

Exactly, this is a typical dishonest passive-aggressive tactic that allows the representative to claim that he meant what he said to one groupd and to deny it to other groups. It is appalling that so many people fall for this duplicity. Clearly, he had no reason to open his pie-hole to emit this foul wind at all, unless he was trying to make a point about wind power.
 
Questions regarding whether or not Rep. Barton actually believes in the cause or not are valid areas of discussion. That, however, is materially different from saying that he "seems more worried that we'll run out of wind".
 
Bullshit! He read some stuff from a report (which apparently misquoted another report). He then paraphrases the warnings, but steps back just a little from it, in the typical passive aggressive bullshit way the right-wing has mastered.

I'm not saying that using wind turbines will cause global warming to increase, I'm just saying that this report that I'm quoting from (and it is a college paper, which I'd usually scoff at, but because it confirms my bias, I'll quote it till the cows come home) states that using wind power, wind is finite so the winds will slow down and temperatures will rise. I'm not saying that will happen, but this paper says it will, not that I'm saying it will.

Nothing in what you've just paraphrased could reasonably be construed as "running out of wind", which was what you claimed he was concerned about:
The point is that renewables aren't a panacea, they have their own problems which must be addressed.
That wasn't his concern. He seemed more worried about us running out of wind.

You appear to have contradicted yourself, and now seem to be supporting Loren Pechtel's claim.

From the more complete quotation you provided:
and I quote: ``Wind energy is a finite resource.
 
Questions regarding whether or not Rep. Barton actually believes in the cause or not are valid areas of discussion. That, however, is materially different from saying that he "seems more worried that we'll run out of wind".
That would be the passive aggressive portion of his talking. Kind of like how George W. Bush never technically linked Hussein with 9/11. Yet Americans seemed to get the idea that Hussein was involved with 9/11.

If Barton doesn't believe it (who knows, Senator candidate Akins thought women secrete hormones when getting raped), he did an interesting job promoting the possibility. And in doing so, he is showing why he doesn't belong on any board related to science, or really Government in general.

Seriously, these are the two options here:
1) He doesn't believe it, yet it propagating what he doesn't believe to be true.
2) He does believe it.
 
Nothing in what you've just paraphrased could reasonably be construed as "running out of wind", which was what you claimed he was concerned about:
The point is that renewables aren't a panacea, they have their own problems which must be addressed.
That wasn't his concern. He seemed more worried about us running out of wind.

You appear to have contradicted yourself, and now seem to be supporting Loren Pechtel's claim.

From the more complete quotation you provided:
and I quote: ``Wind energy is a finite resource.

If I quote you saying something silly, and then paraphrase it to make more sense and be more reasonable, does the fact of my quoting your silliness mean that I believe your silliness to be actual fact?

- - - Updated - - -

Questions regarding whether or not Rep. Barton actually believes in the cause or not are valid areas of discussion. That, however, is materially different from saying that he "seems more worried that we'll run out of wind".
That would be the passive aggressive portion of his talking. Kind of like how George W. Bush never technically linked Hussein with 9/11. Yet Americans seemed to get the idea that Hussein was involved with 9/11.

If Barton doesn't believe it (who knows, Senator candidate Akins thought women secrete hormones when getting raped), he did an interesting job promoting the possibility. And in doing so, he is showing why he doesn't belong on any board related to science, or really Government in general.

Seriously, these are the two options here:
1) He doesn't believe it, yet it propagating what he doesn't believe to be true.
2) He does believe it.

Jimmy, he didn't in any way say or imply that we would run out of wind.

- - - Updated - - -

Questions regarding whether or not Rep. Barton actually believes in the cause or not are valid areas of discussion.
Of course, because those areas rebut your position.

No, they don't. Questions of his integrity are separate from questions of whether he believes we might run out of wind... which is what Jimmy Higgins claimed he believes.
 
Is Representative Barton is a thermodynamic changeling? Instead of wind farms converting wind energy to electricity he's says taking wind energy will increase temperatures not because wind will disappear (that's stupid because even he knows energy is not destroyed), but, that friction loss at the vanes will result in conversion of wind energy to heat in the atmosphere without increasing air motion, right?
 
No, they don't. Questions of his integrity are separate from questions of whether he believes we might run out of wind... which is what Jimmy Higgins claimed he believes.
Those are not questions of his integrity. He said what he said. He had a purpose (or purposes) for his utterances. Your responses ignore those basic realities which makes your arguments pointless.
 
Nothing in what you've just paraphrased could reasonably be construed as "running out of wind", which was what you claimed he was concerned about:
The point is that renewables aren't a panacea, they have their own problems which must be addressed.
That wasn't his concern. He seemed more worried about us running out of wind.

You appear to have contradicted yourself, and now seem to be supporting Loren Pechtel's claim.

From the more complete quotation you provided:
and I quote: ``Wind energy is a finite resource.

If I quote you saying something silly, and then paraphrase it to make more sense and be more reasonable, does the fact of my quoting your silliness mean that I believe your silliness to be actual fact?
It wasn't a paraphrase. The quote in the image is an exact quote.


Questions regarding whether or not Rep. Barton actually believes in the cause or not are valid areas of discussion. That, however, is materially different from saying that he "seems more worried that we'll run out of wind".
That would be the passive aggressive portion of his talking. Kind of like how George W. Bush never technically linked Hussein with 9/11. Yet Americans seemed to get the idea that Hussein was involved with 9/11.

If Barton doesn't believe it (who knows, Senator candidate Akins thought women secrete hormones when getting raped), he did an interesting job promoting the possibility. And in doing so, he is showing why he doesn't belong on any board related to science, or really Government in general.

Seriously, these are the two options here:
1) He doesn't believe it, yet it propagating what he doesn't believe to be true.
2) He does believe it.

Jimmy, he didn't in any way say or imply that we would run out of wind.
You may need to explain the relevance of saying 'wind is a finite resource' then.

Questions regarding whether or not Rep. Barton actually believes in the cause or not are valid areas of discussion.
Of course, because those areas rebut your position.

No, they don't. Questions of his integrity are separate from questions of whether he believes we might run out of wind... which is what Jimmy Higgins claimed he believes.
I believe Rep. Barton is at best an ignorant fuck, at worst, an asshole.
 
Is Representative Barton is a thermodynamic changeling? Instead of wind farms converting wind energy to electricity he's says taking wind energy will increase temperatures not because wind will disappear (that's stupid because even he knows energy is not destroyed), but, that friction loss at the vanes will result in conversion of wind energy to heat in the atmosphere without increasing air motion, right?

I did not get that impression, although I am also not a climate scientist so I could be misunderstanding it. My impression is that Rep Barton quoted a scientist whose name I've forgotten hypothesizing that widespread wind farms could feasibly slow the speed of the winds (because of friction) which would change overall wind patterns, and affect the planet's ability to regulate heat transfer.

- - - Updated - - -

No, they don't. Questions of his integrity are separate from questions of whether he believes we might run out of wind... which is what Jimmy Higgins claimed he believes.
Those are not questions of his integrity. He said what he said. He had a purpose (or purposes) for his utterances. Your responses ignore those basic realities which makes your arguments pointless.
I'm not ignoring reality; I'm being true to it. He did not claim that we would run out of wind.
 
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