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Islam and feminism, I need your thoughts on this

veclock

Junior Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
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Location
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Basic Beliefs
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Hi everybody.

I really have a hard time with people who argues in favor of both equality and religion,
because religion have oppressed women so much throughout history. But, some would then go on and ask what is the egg and what is the chicken, religion or patriarchy.

Anyhow, I wouldn't ever defend any religion, but now many politicians and feminists are defending islam, because "islam is attacked in media ect". What cought my attention was this image:

http://beingsakin.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/fashion.jpg
fashion.jpg

What do you think about the opinion that women in western society are equally oppressed as muslim women?
I was discussing this on another forum, and my opponent (a muslim woman) said that muslim women can be seen for their intelligence and personality rather than their bodies, and by that regard they are less oppressed than western women.

What's your thoughts on this issue?
 
Sure, feel free to put forward your definitions. But I'd rather have some opinions on this issue rather than definitions and then a dead thread.
 
Hi everybody.

I really have a hard time with people who argues in favor of both equality and religion,
because religion have oppressed women so much throughout history. But, some would then go on and ask what is the egg and what is the chicken, religion or patriarchy.

Anyhow, I wouldn't ever defend any religion, but now many politicians and feminists are defending islam, because "islam is attacked in media ect". What cought my attention was this image:

http://beingsakin.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/fashion.jpg
View attachment 1227

What do you think about the opinion that women in western society are equally oppressed as muslim women?
I was discussing this on another forum, and my opponent (a muslim woman) said that muslim women can be seen for their intelligence and personality rather than their bodies, and by that regard they are less oppressed than western women.

What's your thoughts on this issue?

The argument that it is necessary or even desirable to wear a sack from head to toe so that you can be seen for your 'intelligence' and 'personality' rather than beauty is patent nonsense. The way you can tell it is patent nonsense is that the same is not required for men. Men don't need to be covered in a sack from head to toe for people to appreciate a man's intelligence and personality.

It also implies that using one's physical gifts (e.g. beauty) is somehow less feminist, less 'legitimate', than being 'brainy'. But why is this the case? Women own their own bodies so they ought to be able to use their bodies in the ways they want to. This includes being a doctor or being an air hostess or being a prostitute.

Do Muslim women never find it telling that Western women could, if they wanted to, wear a burka also, but that the dress code in many Muslim-majority nations would prevent Muslim women from wearing anything else?

And if Muslim women are seen for their 'personality' and 'intelligence' rather than their bodies, it's because (in the most extreme case), you couldn't even recognise your own mother or sister in the street. It would be a side effect, not the reason. Covering women from head to toe, and seeing the world from a veiled slit, was not designed so that men could appreciate women's personalities. It was designed so that men could control women's lives and bodies, and prevent the male gaze of others from lusting after their property.
 
For the record, I believe the woman on the left has more things covered than her eyes.
 
Depends on where this cartoon is depicting in regard to the burka clad woman. In the west a lot of Muslim women do wear it by choice, and the reason the lady on the other board gave is as good as any.

But even in the west there is peer pressure and social pressure within her group to wear it. And there is also peer pressure and social pressure for western women to show skin.

The analogy isnt perfect, and its a bit of a Moore/Coulter, but I can see why it is made
 
Hi everybody.

I really have a hard time with people who argues in favor of both equality and religion,
because religion have oppressed women so much throughout history. But, some would then go on and ask what is the egg and what is the chicken, religion or patriarchy.

Anyhow, I wouldn't ever defend any religion, but now many politicians and feminists are defending islam, because "islam is attacked in media ect". What cought my attention was this image:

http://beingsakin.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/fashion.jpg
View attachment 1227

What do you think about the opinion that women in western society are equally oppressed as muslim women?
I was discussing this on another forum, and my opponent (a muslim woman) said that muslim women can be seen for their intelligence and personality rather than their bodies, and by that regard they are less oppressed than western women.

What's your thoughts on this issue?

The argument that it is necessary or even desirable to wear a sack from head to toe so that you can be seen for your 'intelligence' and 'personality' rather than beauty is patent nonsense. The way you can tell it is patent nonsense is that the same is not required for men. Men don't need to be covered in a sack from head to toe for people to appreciate a man's intelligence and personality.

It also implies that using one's physical gifts (e.g. beauty) is somehow less feminist, less 'legitimate', than being 'brainy'. But why is this the case? Women own their own bodies so they ought to be able to use their bodies in the ways they want to. This includes being a doctor or being an air hostess or being a prostitute.

Do Muslim women never find it telling that Western women could, if they wanted to, wear a burka also, but that the dress code in many Muslim-majority nations would prevent Muslim women from wearing anything else?

And if Muslim women are seen for their 'personality' and 'intelligence' rather than their bodies, it's because (in the most extreme case), you couldn't even recognise your own mother or sister in the street. It would be a side effect, not the reason. Covering women from head to toe, and seeing the world from a veiled slit, was not designed so that men could appreciate women's personalities. It was designed so that men could control women's lives and bodies, and prevent the male gaze of others from lusting after their property.

death's door.JPG

This is really a silly argument. Women are grossly mistreated in many Muslim countries. Let's be clear on that. If the woman in the burka actually would say that, it would just be an example of Stockholm syndrome.
 
Covering women from head to toe, and seeing the world from a veiled slit, was not designed so that men could appreciate women's personalities. It was designed so that men could control women's lives and bodies, and prevent the male gaze of others from lusting after their property.

That's what I told them, but that explanation was rejected and called islamophobic. My argument was that Islam is a patriarchal religion that denies women their sexuality and lets the men control it. After all, isn't physical fitness an important part in human sexuality and "partner evaluation"? My argument was that clothes can help us express our personalities and sexuality, alot of clothes are designed for enhancing attractive body traits. Tight clothes helps you show your figure, and clothes like this (http://tinyurl.com/katfaoe) enhances the hour glass figure, for example.

I was told that women are not seen as property in Islam and that clothes like the hiqab isn't denying women their sexuality. Also, my
argument was called "biologistic". "Biologism" is a term that some feminists use in order to label someone who invokes human biological nature, instincts and evolutionary psychology in the discussion.

If I return to that discussion, could you provide me with some good source that shows evidence for the explanation that clothes like the hiqab are designed for minimizing competition from other males so that the husband can keep her for himself.

Also, there's more. My arguments was called "mansplaining", just because I'm a man and my opponent was a woman. Don't know how to react to that bullshit, I simply don't care about the gender of my opponent, I only care about what's being said in the discussion.
 
In places like Saudi Arabia men are treated barbarically as well.

You can be beheaded for the crimes of sorcery or for leaving the Muslim faith or for saying the wrong things about religious matters. Kind of like ISIS.

Barbaric places treat more than women barbarically.

But how has this barbaric regime maintained power? With the help of the West.
 
Depends on where this cartoon is depicting in regard to the burka clad woman. In the west a lot of Muslim women do wear it by choice, and the reason the lady on the other board gave is as good as any.

I've personally heard similar rationales for the hijab, yes, but burqas and even niqab are far less common. Even in France, where the whole "burqa ban" charade boiled over a few years ago, there were only about 2,000 women wearing it. I'd find the argument a lot less convincing in the case of the burqa than hijab; I can imagine how hijab could reduce unwanted advances, at least from non-Muslim men, without limiting mobility/interpersonal communication (and that's the most articulate reasoning I've heard a Muslim woman give -- an ex-atheist convert no less). Anything beyond that would seem to far exceed the criteria that the woman in the OP gave.

But, in a free society, people can buy into whatever shitty rationale they want to.
 
My arguments was called "mansplaining", just because I'm a man and my opponent was a woman.

This is a classic "ad hominem" logical fallacy. If they truly have a good argument and think yours is not good, they should be able to defend theirs and attack yours without reference to the person arguing. If they need to resort to this kind of fallacy it demonstrates a weakness in their argument.
 
How many imams who set the rules in Islam are women? How many authors of Koran were women?

Zero.

So even if your opponents claims that the dress code in Islam is somehow more respectful of women than some other type of clothing, that would be coincidental as there is no doubt that women had very little impact in actually deciding what the dress code should be. Same with the other misogynist rules that the religion has, such as women's testimony being only half of that of a man and so on.
 
My arguments was called "mansplaining", just because I'm a man and my opponent was a woman.

This is a classic "ad hominem" logical fallacy. If they truly have a good argument and think yours is not good, they should be able to defend theirs and attack yours without reference to the person arguing. If they need to resort to this kind of fallacy it demonstrates a weakness in their argument.

It's also ignorant sexism. The term 'mansplaining' refers to the tendency of an explanation needing to come from a man for social reasons, and highlights a particular common facet of sexism against women. Using it to justify ignoring an arguement because a man puts it forward is simply ignorant sexism on their part.

In terms of the burqua, there are two sides to the arguement. The first is that, by covering up their bodies, women can relate to eachother and to men in public without being seen as a sexual object. This can be very useful in avoiding some aspects of sexism.

The other side is, however, that western culture fairly consistently encourages people to express and celebrate all aspects of their identity, and sexuality is one such aspect. As such, there is nothing particularly wrong with expressing sexuality in public. And this is where the idea of Islam as protecting women from sexism really breaks down, because Muslim cultures are not just cultures in which burquas are an option, they are cultures in which it (or something like it) is compulsory. The very idea of public sexuality is prohibited, woman in particular, are effectively banned from expressing it. This leads to the twin ideologies of patriarchy (woman must be protected and cared for by men, and hence controlled by men), and the idea of chastity versus immodesty, in which any woman who does not protect their sexuality from everyone, has no right to protect it from anyone who wants to take it by force. Thus young woman really don't have to worry or concern themselves with their sexuality, which is what is being argued is so liberating, but only because others will be disposing of it on their behalf.

Thus you can argue that Muslim woman are free from social pressures of public sexuality, but this is only the case because their sexuality is not really seen as theirs to be responsible for. It's just a modern version of the old pro-slavery arguement that black people are better off being slaves, because as property they enjoy a fair amount of independence already and having more would simply be more responsibility than they could handle, and make them worse off.

The rest of this gets pretty speculative.

The idea I'm playing with on why this arguement survives at all comes down to the cultural differences between the West and the Middle East. In the West, freedom is good, and being under someone else's authority is bad. The emphasis is thus on freely choosing to follow someone else's leadership, typically by an appeal to higher principles that the leader espouses. In the Middle East, good is being under good and just authority. The emphasis is thus on choosing the correct authority to submit to, generally by an appeal to the higher principles that those who submit to that authority end up following. The principles are seen, not in the leader, but in his followers, and the independence and growth that they enjoy under his guidance. Thus in the West, the individual is vital, but in practice is expected to submit to an ideal. In the Middle East the submission to an ideal is vital, but in practice is expected to lead to the betterment of the individual. This may be why Western individuals are seen as encouraged to do really irresponsible things, while MiddleEastern leaders are seen as encouraged to do really irresponsible things.

There may also be a difference in how important things are dealt with. In the West we actively try and treat important things badly - sex is debased and described in the crudest possible terms, leaders are held up to public ridicule, and in general the more important something is the more we try and show it in a bad light. The reason we do this is precisely because we fear the tyranny of the sacred - that something will be held as so overwhelmingly important, that everything else must fall by the wayside. Our classic picture of a mindless fanatic is one who holds only one thing to be important. We balance this with tolerance - we are each going to hold different things to be important, so of course one thing can't be too important or else everyone will suffer.

In the Middle East important things are treated with great respect. Leaders are not lampooned, sex is protected, and religious is not routinely mocked. Such measures are only taken with things we want to remove, destroy or change, so any attempt to do that to something important is a threat. The counterbalance to this is of course far less tolerance. These things are important, so anything that threatens them is wrong and must be resisted, opposed or punished.

I'm floating a theory here - I've got no particular back up for this view, and I'm not sure how strongly I believe it, but it's my if-you-put-a-gun-to-my-head take on some of the biggest differences.
 
It comes down to a matter of choice. While it's true that a strong argument can be made that the sexuakization of women in Western society is a sign of male domination, woman can choose whether or not they buy into that. If a woman decides to wear a conservative business suit or a thick sweater that hides her curves the odds of her getting thrown in jail or stoned to death are fairly low.

Women can decide for themselves whether or not to buy into the narrative in the West. They don't have men making the decision for them. Thwt makes the two situations incomparable.
 
That's what I told them, but that explanation was rejected and called islamophobic.

Calling an argument 'Islamophobic' does not refute the argument. They need to give reasons for their rejection of an argument.

I was told that women are not seen as property in Islam and that clothes like the hiqab isn't denying women their sexuality. Also, my
argument was called "biologistic". "Biologism" is a term that some feminists use in order to label someone who invokes human biological nature, instincts and evolutionary psychology in the discussion.

To be honest, I think I'd have lost interest in arguing with someone who would use the term 'biologism'. Biology is not fantasy. It's science.

If I return to that discussion, could you provide me with some good source that shows evidence for the explanation that clothes like the hiqab are designed for minimizing competition from other males so that the husband can keep her for himself.

What would someone who uses the term 'biologism' regard as a good source?
 
The argument that it is necessary or even desirable to wear a sack from head to toe so that you can be seen for your 'intelligence' and 'personality' rather than beauty is patent nonsense. The way you can tell it is patent nonsense is that the same is not required for men. Men don't need to be covered in a sack from head to toe for people to appreciate a man's intelligence and personality.

It is also patent nonsense that the only way a man could possibly avoid seeing a woman as a sex object is if she is covered from head to toe.

Are Muslim men really so weak that if they see more than a set of eyes peering out from under a sack of cloth they'd instantly lose all self control and rape the woman?

Societies that impose such clothing restrictions on women are (in addition to oppressing the women, obviously) also saying to the men of the society - in the immortal words of Beyonce' - "I don't think you're ready for this jelly. I don't think you're ready for this...'cause my body too bootylicious."
 
They think someone sees a lot of their personality behind that veil? Their intelligence? Nah. People see they are confined and afraid of the larger world; hiding from it, unable to have a personality that includes the physical. The men don't talk to women in veils intelligently in the societies that require them; they confine them and exclude them. And it's easy to do when you're wearing a neon flashing exclusion sign all over your body.
 
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