Katniss wasnt attacked by these same misogynists because she was an original character. So it isn't about misogyny but about recasting characters people already associate with a particular look? Would these same people give the same reaction if somebody like Katniss was casted as male?
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Who Agrees Fourth Wave Feminism is Toxic Femininity And Should Be Abolished?
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Jimmy Higgins
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Funny because the actors that played Rei and Rose were attacked. It seems like people are okay with characters as long as they are rooted in literature and will only refer to Admiral Gender Studies if the characters only exist in screenplays.
Toni
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Agree to disagree. Misogynists were unlikely to have read the books in the first place.
Rey is an original character. She's been attacked. You may feel differently and feel that those movies are sub-par for the franchise. I think that plot and character development were never the long suit of the franchise and the last two installments are better than the so called Episodes I, II or III individually or combined. Those really kinda reeked and made me dread another installment. I've been a fan since I saw Star Wars (now called A New Hope) in its original run in the movie theaters in 1977.
Agree to disagree with what? I wasn't expressing an opinion in what you quoted. I was attempting to repeat what you said in my own words (to see if I understand) and asked a clarifying question. You said that Katniss wasn't attacked by these same people because she was female from her creation.
So is this about men hating women or is this about people not liking characters they value change race/gender, etc? So I asked you, if they remade Hunger Games, and casted Katniss as male, would you expect these same people to have the same problem or not?
The Force Awakens is pretty much a carbon copy of A New Hope, so there isn't much to be said about it. The better comparison is therefore Empire Strikes Back vs The Last Jedi, which are very different films. It amazes me that you could prefer the latter to the former. The former is widely thought of as the best of the original 3 movies, and the best of all the Star Wars movies all together (including the prequels). One can't account for taste though. If you prefer The Last Jedi, I'm glad it has at least one fan.
Arctish
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Rey didn't change race/gender. None of the characters did.
Yes, The Force Awakens is a call back to A New Hope. No, it isn't a carbon copy. It follows a different track and winds up in a different place.
Rey isn't Luke. She has a different backstory and a different personality. And Vice Admiral Holdo isn't a gender swapped nameless male character. She's an original character who looks harmless but proves herself to be a steely eyed warrior when she takes out 3 Imperial cruisers and sacrifices herself so the Rebellion can live to fight another day.
I don't know why so many guys are complaining that the newest Star Wars lead character is female. I don't know why there was a coordinated effort to trash the Captain Marvel movie on Rotten Tomatoes before it was even released. But I know that it's happening, and I think it's because men are accustomed to seeing idealized representation of themselves in action/adventure/scifi movies and it disturbs them to see females in that role.
I go through the same feelings. Maybe they were put there. My shame becomes confusion becomes buying more expensive soap to wash it away. Because paying for my sins perpetually makes me real and makes me good. Still there is a thought lingering that inequality is natural and unavoidable. Fighting it (if I wholehatredly object to it) is a kind of hypocrisy. Someone is always ahead. Someone can always lift more, in half the time. To be truly fair I have to accept unfairness algorithmically. Recognize that no matter the scenario, fairness is always what is.. no matter what happens to be.
Movies are the air we breathe. They help construct our dreams while we sleep. We use instances in movies to apply logic all day long. Movies and shows are what we are to the viewer inside ourselves and the audiences outside as well. I think you underestimate the power of entertainment in this age. Any age since the moving picture, really. And books aren't much different. We collect pieces of debris from all of it and use it in our minds for multi purposes. The making money dimension is there too, but that is a small detail in an inevitable reality, just like unfairness i guess. But it's fair no matter what.
Yeah. I didn't like The Force Awakens but the lead isn't the problem. She's about the only part of it that's good in my book.
How do you explain Wonder Woman's success? Or did they trash that too? I don't recall any outcry on that one. How about Xena Warrior Princess? Alien? Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Sarah Connor from Terminator? Supergirl (as opposed to Batwoman)? Game of thrones badass female characters like Breanne of Tarth and Danerys Targarean? Why in your view are some of these action / adventure movies starring women attacked and others not?
Toni
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No, I said she wasn't attacked because it was doubtful that any misogynists would have read the books.
I don't really think it would be the same problem, although I can see how some might think that finally there's a good series with a strong female lead and it gets taken over by guys who already have a million franchises that they feel they 'own.' To some small degree, that might happen. Something that I've always noticed is that girls are expected to and readily identify with male heroes in books and in movies. Boys are rarely expected to do so and largely do not.
No????
The theatrical sequence of the movies is:
Episode IV: A New Hope (1977)
Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
Episode VI: The Return of the Jedi (1983)
Episode I: The Phantom Menace (1999)
Episode II: Attack of the Clones (2002)
Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (2005)
Episode VII:The Force Awakens (2015)
Rogue One (2016)
Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (2017)
Solo (2018)
Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)
Actually I made a mistake and forgot about Solo in the series.
What I said/and am amending to include Solo is that I think the last 3 (Rogue One, Episode VIII and Solo) are all much better than Episode I, II and III. See the correct numbering above. It is confusing because the series starts at Episode IV.
I like the first 3 in movie chronology: Episode IV, V and VI, as well as the last ones: VI and Rogue One and Solo (which is obviously a prequel but a good one) and Episode VIII MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the middle ons Episode I, II and III which were beyond awful. That's including how they've dissed C3PO and R2D2 and given Han and Leia that awful sniveling 'son' and killed off Han.
I agree with Loren that Rey is the biggest saving grace of The Last Jedi but really we can just leave it at: what Arctish wrote.
Toni
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1. I don't know. Maybe you could explain it?
2. The real bad ass of GoT is Arya Stark.
Arctish
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IMV the franchises and movies being attacked are the ones that most strongly appealed to the attackers when they were boys, the ones in which they imagined themselves as the lead characters. I think it's jarring for them to see women in the lead role because it makes them feel like their childhood dreams have been desecrated. They wanted to be Jedi and that was cool because all the Jedi were guys. But with Rey now being the cool Jedi (the only Jedi), they can't want that anymore because that's like wanting to be a girl or something.
The characters they never felt a close affinity for or aspired to be like aren't a problem. They liked looking at Xena, not imagining they were her.
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ruby sparks
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I don't know much about some of the films or characters that have been talked about in detail, and I'm sure that the reasons for criticisms vary from person to person and so on.
But I do notice a common theme in this thread and others that have to do with gender politics, and indeed race, and indeed in the politics threads here (and even the non-political ones). A lot of stuff seems to be related to the left/right ding dong that seems to consume America. As such, 'leftism' is the perceived problem here, as it manifests itself in wokeness and social justice warrioring and so on. Females getting roles they would not normally or traditionally have gotten, one way or another, is just one small trigger among many.
It isn't hard to see a pattern, regarding what gets discussed and in what ways, and what doesn't get discussed. Over and over and over.
But why all the fuss? It is often clearly an exaggerated 'problem' we are ealing with, by and large. And involves double standards (eg complaints about lack of merit from people who probably never complained about the endemic, 'traditional' lack of merit that has operated, in the areas in which they now bring up concerns, for most of their lives).
I don't know. But my guess is that male fragility is part of it. White male fragility when there's a race component. In the end and underneath it all, I get the impression that we're often dealing with common or garden variety backlash and resistance (to change and/or progress) here, or that that's at least one component.
I'm speaking generally, and at this point and in this case opting to air my personal opinion only, based on my impressions.
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Until it isn't. Elbow bruises are just going to get worse. They can't create unfair scenarios in the name of fairness.
As I recall, the original outrage was with men getting all the roles that women don't, because scenes required standing pee or whatever. So women are given roles that don't fit them because why now? It doesn't solve anything. Look at how badly they disrupted the force. And the ghosts are unhappy, not a good idea pissing them off. Oh and Comic fans, who thinks agitating them is wise? The comic universes are the second largest we know of right now. And when they all converge I don't want to see women strutting around, clutching mock penises, spitting and acting rowdy.
In 20% of the cases sure but most people do tend to speak up when their environment is disrupted and they have that right. We escape into our stories for a break from the reality we're allowing to get so bad. I don't want unnecessary change that exists just to make money or pacify ignorant and immature people.
35% on that one maybe. But there is good reason to be upset about that part, too. Good luck explaining yourself on that one though, huh
If generating money and confusion is your idea of change then sure. But there is NO progress being made when smear menstrual blood all over my favorite classics. It turns black when it dries and it takes years to come off on it's own. I mean Jesus Christ I'm covered in it right now and all I did was attempt to wipe a tiny corner. Just stop being so goddamn messy. White, American women don't know how good they have it. They have it so good, they have time to waste everyone else's time.
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Yes I agree that this is your opinion based on your impressions. As a woman.
laughing dog
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It seems you are incapable of grasping that the problem is your perception that the roles do not fit them, not the actual roles these women are given. Plenty of people, including men, have no problem with women getting these roles.
ruby sparks
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I'm a man. Username is just the name of a favourite film. It has a woman in it, in a leading role. I hope that doesn't trigger you.
I brought up the dumbing down, changing sexes, shitty writing, poor choices Hollywood feeding on little fads that jerk you off for money, point. I'll stick to that because there is no other issue here for me. Generally I do not care and I will enjoy any distraction they sell me, but they are starting to go too far when they allow x to decide to rile everyone up like this. The gender swaps are more like an attack on men and women both. Animals, insects and inanimate objects all suffer when Ghostbusters is badly filmed with femmales. You know this. It is a quality issue. There are a lot of factors but motivation is what's important. laughing dog, my perception about this is definitely the problem because I am right. I'm beyond caring about certain things man. Emotions do not apply here. It would take actual money to get me to give a FUCK beyond my own viewing experiences.
I feel like a damn cave man arguing about the mirage that forms around the matter and not pointing out that things this ridiculous are usually done on purpose in entertainment. And in this case, not by any well meaning women who just want to feel like they are treated equally. Any decent person wouldn't mind seeing them in more roles. Not that they aren't already in as many as men.
When women can lift as much as men there will be more steel workers. I see no other conflict to address regarding women in America besides emotions. You are aware of what happens to women in other parts world I guess. And how any of them would laugh at you if you cried about any of this... If they're even allowed to laugh at a man without having their clitoris removed?
I feel like a damn cave man arguing about the mirage that forms around the matter and not pointing out that things this ridiculous are usually done on purpose in entertainment. And in this case, not by any well meaning women who just want to feel like they are treated equally. Any decent person wouldn't mind seeing them in more roles. Not that they aren't already in as many as men.
When women can lift as much as men there will be more steel workers. I see no other conflict to address regarding women in America besides emotions. You are aware of what happens to women in other parts world I guess. And how any of them would laugh at you if you cried about any of this... If they're even allowed to laugh at a man without having their clitoris removed?
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Toni
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I liked both Ghost Busters* original franchise (with the first one being the best) and the re-boot with the mostly female cast but I do think the first one was better because of the originality of the concept but mostly because Bill Murray's character was a con artist who didn't believe in the 'research' he was supposedly conducting. The fact that ghosts and other supernatural phenomena turned out to be very real was part of the cachet of the film, along with the fact that Murray never lost a beat in his snide, cynical portrayal. But honestly, the entire cast was great. In the female re-boot, the Kristen Wigg and Melissa McCarthy were far too earnest--they were true believers and so there was never a kind of breaking of the fourth wall with the actors sharing their skepticism with the audience. The real delights of that film were Jones, McKinnon and Hemsworth really stole the show. Loved the nods to the original cast and the musical number at the end was off the charts.
Jimmy Higgins
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That is actually you and the right-wing social media circle jerking doing that, not the producers.another1 said:
laughing dog
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I know a diatribe that claims “animals, insects and inanimate objects all suffer” when some movie is badly made is hard to take seriously.
Toni said something similar. Note though that Xena came after Kevin Sorbos' Hercules show. She's basically the female version of him. I take your point though. So its more about these guys not wanting characters they identify with to change (race, gender, etc) than them not wanting strong female heroes to watch? Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the girl from Aliens, Supergirl, and the long list of other female action stars have large male followings. Many of the same guys who complain about the female characters you noted.