Discipline for children

[Playball40]

No one has mentioned giving out trophies for participation. You don't get on the honor role for participation. We shouldn't give out trophies in sports for participation. Well, at a very young age when the kids are just learning how to play the sport, that's fine.

Dancer's don't get "participation trophies" so I don't know how pervasive this practice is. Do you have examples of older, more experienced sports players receiving "participation trophies"?

My daughter's county soccer short program gives very small participation trophies to the co-ed U-10 teams. However, they do not play a tournament style season. They play the same four teams throughout the short season and have no 'elimination' so to speak. It's called a "Recreation League". The kids can move over to the competitive leagues if they choose, which is set up differently. The rec league is for fun, make friends and learn the game (and is says as much when parents sign up). The competitive leagues travel for games, have eliminations et al. I think the rec teams were great for my daughter. She has moved up to the competitive teams now, but it served its purpose when she was younger.

 

[RavenSky]

Dancer's don't get "participation trophies" so I don't know how pervasive this practice is. Do you have examples of older, more experienced sports players receiving "participation trophies"?

I don't have kids so I don't really know what is going on. I was just going off the cartoon.

Google isn't helping much either beyond making it clear that older wealthy people are against them, while Millennials are in favor by a small margin.

 

[Valjean]

I saw this meme today on Facebook:

and it got me to wondering do you think society has gone too far in the change in discipline?

Myself? I was spanked as a child, put in time out etc. It didn't hurt me. It taught me respect for right and wrong. You did wrong, you got a spank. Mum even had degrees of wooden spoon given on the severity of the offence!

What do you think?

Corporal punishment may deter unwanted behavior, but not by teaching right from wrong. It teaches fear of retribution.
You can mold a dog's or a lab rat's behavior with painful stimuli just as easily, but don't think you're teaching them right from wrong.

You can impose good behavior, but not morality. Morality is an internalized ethic, not an external, enforced inhibition.

Punishment doesn't teach respect, but fear. "If you did wrong, you got a spank" is not respect, or even an understanding of right and wrong. It's submissiveness; unquestioning obedience. Corporal punishment creates authoritarianism, not morality. It discourages moral reasoning and teaches you to know your place, defer to authority and follow orders.

Our goal should not be compliance or submissiveness. We need to teach our children to question the rules and challenge them if they're unfair or dysfunctional. Dissent should be encouraged, not suppressed. Our goal should be to instill a moral conscience and teach moral reasoning. Bad behavior should be inhibited not by fear of retribution, but by the psychic pain an anti-social act would cause.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

There doesn't appear to be evidence that people who were spanked as children in general are now "well-behaved", other than anecdotal evidence, which is not a strong form of evidence, especially considering someone can easily lie about their behavior. They don't even have to lie necessarily- they can just count the hits and ignore the misses, which people are likely to do. Also, I'm not implying people here are lying. I'm simply saying that I can't trust their word, given that I don't actually know anyone here on a personal level, and I know next to nothing about their lives except what they choose to reveal.

 

[prideandfall]

and it got me to wondering do you think society has gone too far in the change in discipline?

no.

Myself? I was spanked as a child, put in time out etc. It didn't hurt me. It taught me respect for right and wrong. You did wrong, you got a spank. Mum even had degrees of wooden spoon given on the severity of the offence!

i was also spanked and struck in various ways as a child - it taught me that violence is the immediate and ultimate solution to all disagreements and that any time someone does something you do not approve of, hurt them until they stop.

What do you think?

i think it's completely depraved and utterly fucked up that the smallest and most helpless of us, who trust us implicitly and completely and who are the most physically and emotionally destroyed by violence being done against them, are the only members of our species that it is socially permitted to casually discuss physically assaulting.

 

[prideandfall]

I don't see being spanked as 'breaking the will' within me or my brothers. We knew we had done wrong - especially if mum brought out the BIG wooden spoon. We learned to recognise how wrong our action was by how severely we were punished. A good lesson IMO.

same escalation of violence in my childhood, it just taught me to lie first always and to be constantly manipulating my parents to not get caught.

 

[skepticalbip]

think that the problem with the spanking question is that people tend to think in the extremes. Spanking does not mean beating and not spanking does not mean no discipline for the child.

Children need discipline to learn what is acceptable in the society. All children are different so some children need less discipline and some children need more discipline. If the child can learn with simple correction or time outs then that is all that is required. Independent minded children that will not learn that way will need more severe discipline, maybe even spanking.

I was spanked as a child but only if I ignored what I had been taught was not acceptable behavior. For me, the spankings were more the embarrassment than any pain. A firm hand slap on my little rump would get my attention and make me quit doing what I knew was not acceptable but wanted to do anyway. Simply telling me to stop or sending me to my room was little deterrent if it was something I wanted to do.

 

[prideandfall]

think that the problem with the spanking question is that people tend to think in the extremes. Spanking does not mean beating and not spanking does not mean no discipline for the child.

i think the problem with the spanking question is that people tend to think that a level of physical violence that would get you fired and arrested in the office is perfectly acceptable against defenseless children.

it could be the mildest, friendliest, however-you-want-to-describe-it spanking... but if i did that to some idiot at work who wasn't listening to me or displeasing me, the difference in a reaction between that incident and hitting a child would be immeasurably different.

Children need discipline to learn what is acceptable in the society.

children need to be taught what is acceptable in society - that is light years away from 'discipline', much less using 'discipline' as a euphemism for physical violence.

Independent minded children that will not learn that way will need more severe discipline, maybe even spanking.

this is utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine.

 

[Unbeatable]

It's hard for me to see a meme like the one in the OP and not think the author(or at least the character) is basically an authoritarian.

Spanking is a form of operant conditioning which programs an association between an aversive stimulus and whatever behavior the authority figure in question happens to want less of. It does not teach knowledge of right and wrong. It "teaches" obedience through fear. It's just crude behavior modification, like you'd use on a dog. I guess it works in that sense. If you think it's necessary in any cases, well, that just reinforces my opinion that bringing children into this world is an act of cruelty.

 

[skepticalbip]

i think the problem with the spanking question is that people tend to think that a level of physical violence that would get you fired and arrested in the office is perfectly acceptable against defenseless children.

it could be the mildest, friendliest, however-you-want-to-describe-it spanking... but if i did that to some idiot at work who wasn't listening to me or displeasing me, the difference in a reaction between that incident and hitting a child would be immeasurably different.

You are not responsible for making some idiot at work into a citizen who respects others and the norms of society.

Children need discipline to learn what is acceptable in the society.

children need to be taught what is acceptable in society - that is light years away from 'discipline', much less using 'discipline' as a euphemism for physical violence.

Independent minded children that will not learn that way will need more severe discipline, maybe even spanking.

this is utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine.

Yeah, I understand that is your opinion. I could call it utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine but my parents taught to have more respect for the fact that others have a right to their opinions even if I disagreed, very occasionally with a firm hand to my little rump.

 

[prideandfall]

You are not responsible for making some idiot at work into a citizen who respects others and the norms of society.

so?
how does that in any way remotely excuse or justify physical violence against a defenseless person? this completely and utterly dodges the point.

Yeah, I understand that is your opinion. I could call it utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine but my parents taught to have more respect for the fact that others have a right to their opinions even if I disagreed, very occasionally with a firm hand to my little rump.

then you're <snipped> completely wrong, OK.

 

[gmbteach]

No one has mentioned giving out trophies for participation. You don't get on the honor role for participation. We shouldn't give out trophies in sports for participation. Well, at a very young age when the kids are just learning how to play the sport, that's fine.

Dancer's don't get "participation trophies" so I don't know how pervasive this practice is. Do you have examples of older, more experienced sports players receiving "participation trophies"?

In Primary school, at sports carnivals, all kids get a participation ribbon, with the place getters getting ribbons for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. The really young kids don't get ribbons, but they do all get a sticker that says 'I ran a race' or 'I swam in the pool'.

To me this doesn't give anything for the kid to really strive for. 'Oh, it doesn't matter if I don't place, I will get a ribbon anyway.'

When I was in school the only reason I got a ribbon for 3rd was because there were three swimmers in the race. I didn't feel proud of that accomplishment, because I still knew that I had come last.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't see being spanked as 'breaking the will' within me or my brothers. We knew we had done wrong - especially if mum brought out the BIG wooden spoon. We learned to recognise how wrong our action was by how severely we were punished. A good lesson IMO.

Did you know you did something wrong because you saw a big spoon or because you knew you really could see the consequence of the action?

If we got the regular sized spoon, we knew we had done wrong. But if mum got the big decorative one off the wall, you knew you were in big strife. Sometimes, mum used it as a warning... do that again and you will cop this. Usually deterred us.

 

[prideandfall]

nevermind

 

[gmbteach]

You are not responsible for making some idiot at work into a citizen who respects others and the norms of society.

Children need discipline to learn what is acceptable in the society.

children need to be taught what is acceptable in society - that is light years away from 'discipline', much less using 'discipline' as a euphemism for physical violence.

Independent minded children that will not learn that way will need more severe discipline, maybe even spanking.

this is utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine.

Yeah, I understand that is your opinion. I could call it utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine but my parents taught to have more respect for the fact that others have a right to their opinions even if I disagreed, very occasionally with a firm hand to my little rump.

^^^^Well said.

 

[prideandfall]

You are not responsible for making some idiot at work into a citizen who respects others and the norms of society.

Children need discipline to learn what is acceptable in the society.

children need to be taught what is acceptable in society - that is light years away from 'discipline', much less using 'discipline' as a euphemism for physical violence.

Independent minded children that will not learn that way will need more severe discipline, maybe even spanking.

this is utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine.

Yeah, I understand that is your opinion. I could call it utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine but my parents taught to have more respect for the fact that others have a right to their opinions even if I disagreed, very occasionally with a firm hand to my little rump.

^^^^Well said.

<snipped>

 

[gmbteach]

so?
how does that in any way remotely excuse or justify physical violence against a defenseless person? this completely and utterly dodges the point.

Yeah, I understand that is your opinion. I could call it utterly wrong, ridiculous, stupid, morally repugnant, and asinine but my parents taught to have more respect for the fact that others have a right to their opinions even if I disagreed, very occasionally with a firm hand to my little rump.

then you're <snipped> completely wrong, OK.

How is he <snipped> wrong?

 

[prideandfall]

How is he <snipped> wrong?

<snipped> you openly advocate for the physical assault of the most defenseless (both physically and emotionally) in society, but going off of your postings in other threads on these forums i know for a fact that you get all morally uppity about using violence as tool or as a solution in other parts of life - for example, i'm quite comfortable making an assumption about your negative reaction at the idea of it being a man's place to slap a woman around a bit to teach her a lesson about acting out of place, and i doubt you'd approve of the idea of my being allowed to bitch-slap someone upside the head at work when they do something wrong or stupid that i disapprove of.

now, if you were to say that you approve of physical violence being a viable solution to every day activities between people, <snipped> it would be arguable about whether or not you're wrong in terms of morality, ethics, or common decency... but you would at least be consistent.

i happen to think that it is wrong in every conceivable moral, ethical, psychological, and social sense to perpetuate an expectation of physical violence being a solution to disapproval in others against the most helpless of us.
thus, the conclusion is that you're both wrong <snipped>.

side note:
i find it hilarious how completely identical "oh my parents hit me and it made me a better person" sounds to "he didn't mean to hit me, he loves me, and he said he's sorry."

 

[Frikki]

I sure hope you don't! I see you as a sensible person.
I was just mentionning that those people exist, and that abandonning spanking as a social norm has the added advantage of limiting their ability to act on their crazy theories or spread them.

I agree that there is a difference between discipline and abuse. Discipline is where you receive a consequence or punishment (I prefer consequence) for a wrongdoing. Abuse is where punishments are meted out willy nilly. To me, herein lies the difference.

So are you ok with your current boss hitting you if you fuck up?

 

[Frikki]

And by the way if you can´t outwit a child and have to resort to violence, you should keep it in your pants until you learn how to use your words.

 

[credoconsolans]

Spanking is OK by me.

I am another person who was spanked as a child and like others posting on this board it didn't take more than one or two episodes before I learned not to do something when I was told not to.

Physical punishment is not abuse. Or shouldn't be. My parents did not spank me when they were angry. Never.

Physical punishment shouldn't be the first tool in a parents list of disciplining methods, but it shouldn't be left out either.

As someone else posted, sometimes kids don't respond to anything else. A 'time out' would have meant nothing to me. I didn't mind being alone in a room by myself. Guess that punishment was invented by social butterfly people who think being alone is a punishment.

As for who turned out well and who didn't...well considering the entire nation used to be OK with spanking in schools up until the 1960s, I guess everyone raised before then must have been "brain and nervous system damaged and suffered psychologically and emotionally" or whatever.

That enough of an 'anecdote'?