Swedish Social Democratic anti-semitism

[Jayjay]

We don't know if an independent Palestinian state will have Jewish citizens at some point, nor what kind of political representation they might have. What we do know is that the current Palestinian territories have zero Jewish citizens (as far as I know anyway) so the comparison was moot.

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.

Who says they are oppressed in Israel? The ones who are not Israeli citizens are the ones who are oppressed. The swap you outlined would move them from the non-oppressed group to the oppressed group, so of course they howled.

 

[Arctish]

We don't know if an independent Palestinian state will have Jewish citizens at some point, nor what kind of political representation they might have. What we do know is that the current Palestinian territories have zero Jewish citizens (as far as I know anyway) so the comparison was moot.

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.

Indeed it does. Unless and until Israel is no longer free to raze the homes of non-Israelis living outside Israel, living within the borders where certain legal niceties apply is the safer way to build equity. Also, you get reliable cable and cell phone service, there are fewer roadblocks to negotiate on your way to work, the stores are well stocked, and the schools are better, too. And let's not even get started on what a nightmare it is for someone holding a Palestinian passport to travel abroad.

Most people object to being treated like chattel by their government. No one wants their most important life decisions to be made for them by a government that has demonstrated time and again it does not have their best interests at heart. The people involved want it to be their decision which country they live in, and who can blame them?

I wonder what folks here would say if a European country proposed turning out its Jewish citizens whether they liked it or not. I'm guessing the howls of outrage would be heard here, too. But for some reason (which most of us already know) it appears certain posters don't mind it when Palestinians are denied their rights of citizenship in oh-so-wonderfully democratic Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.

Who says they are oppressed in Israel? The ones who are not Israeli citizens are the ones who are oppressed. The swap you outlined would move them from the non-oppressed group to the oppressed group, so of course they howled.

I'm hearing a lot of gripes about how they are supposedly being discriminated against in Israel. Now you're admitting those gripes are invalid.

 

[bilby]

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.

Who says they are oppressed in Israel? The ones who are not Israeli citizens are the ones who are oppressed. The swap you outlined would move them from the non-oppressed group to the oppressed group, so of course they howled.

I'm hearing a lot of gripes about how they are supposedly being discriminated against in Israel. Now you're admitting those gripes are invalid.

In the same way that the reluctance of black youths in America to join their fellow black youths in prison is clear evidence that black youths who are not in jail are not oppressed in any way.

 

[Arctish]

I'm hearing a lot of gripes about how they are supposedly being discriminated against in Israel. Now you're admitting those gripes are invalid.

You just told us it came to light Israel was planning on "giving away" some of its citizens without their knowledge or consent and that this plan targeted non-Jews, but you don't think that's discrimination? How often has Israel planned on giving away communities full of Jews to other countries?

 

[Togo]

So why do they (Palestinians) keep on proposing two-state solutions?

Another solution is to rebrand Israel as Israel-Palestine and make it a part Jewish, part Muslem and part Christian state. But this solution is completely and utterly rejected by both sides.

Not so. Palestinians would be delighted with a one-state solution that would put be democratic and put them in control of the country. It's Israel that rejects this one, and quite reasonably so.

The only solution that a majority of all Palestinians is willing to accept is a total annihilation of Israel.

Source?

For various reasons Palestinians aren't trying to find a solution that makes everybody happy.

Source?

This is the ONLY Jewish country. There's nowhere else for Jews to go (at least if a Jew wants to live in a Jewish country).

It's the only Palestinian country too. It's not their fault you think of all towel-heads as basically the same.

But we saw in the 2004 elections that most Palestians aren't reasonable.

The government elected in 2004 immediately called for an end to violence, enforced a ceasefire, and started talks on a permanent peace settlement, moderated by the international community, with a detailed bargaining position that already had some international support. What's unreasonable about that?

Similarly the political landscape of Israel isn't steadfastly anti-peace either. The forces against the present policy are sufficient that the Israeli government has to form a coalition with the religious extreme right, which they're been reluctant to do in the past.

There is a huge gap in what either side sees as a reasonable settlement. Israel doesn't want a sovereign state in Palestine, because a sovereign state would be armed and a potential threat. And Palestinians don't want to accept half a state ruled by Israel. But there's always been support for a two-state solution in Palestine. Less so in Israel, because they have the upper hand and thus more to lose, but support for the settlers is not high there either.

The question is really what is it that needs to happen for there to be serious negotiations. Rocket attacks need to stop, settlement activity needs to stop, but what else. The position that Sweden has now apparently agreed to is that recognition of Palestine mustn't precede a peace settlement.

Does anyone know the reasoning behind this?

In 2004 they voted Hammas to power. They're fucking nuts.

Can you explain why it would be more sensible to vote for Fatah? How exactly would that help?

Can you answer any of my questions? Or are you just stuck?


Again, the position that Sweden has taken is that recognition should not precede negotiations. What do you think are necessary for such negotiations to occur?

In the West Bank (rather than Gaza) we have a controlling authority that is actively seeking peace, proposing peace plans with some international support. And yet no negotiations are taking place. Why is that, you suppose?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Can you explain why it would be more sensible to vote for Fatah? How exactly would that help?

Politics is like any market. Politicians will fill a gap if there is a need. If there is no need that gap won't be filled. It can't be overstated the insanity of the Hammas political ambition. If they'd gotten 10% of the vote, that would itself be worrying. But winning!?! That's far off the deep end. The choices wasn't Hammas or Fatah. The choices were Fatah, Hammas or some new other party which isn't either kleptocrats or terror-promotors.

Can you answer any of my questions? Or are you just stuck?

?

Again, the position that Sweden has taken is that recognition should not precede negotiations. What do you think are necessary for such negotiations to occur?

The Swedish position is not based on reality. It's based on a soap opera created by Swedish media. It's a pure farce.

In the West Bank (rather than Gaza) we have a controlling authority that is actively seeking peace, proposing peace plans with some international support. And yet no negotiations are taking place. Why is that, you suppose?

You can't punch somebody in the face, stop and then claim you're an innocent victim. This is what has happened. The Palestinian Authority will have to try harder than what they have done to prove to Israel that they're serious. Too bad the international media is eating all their bullshit by the spoonful.

There is a genuine problem that both sides feels victimized by the other. It's not a healing wound. It's just getting deeper. And they're both protecting their own sides idiots provoking conflicts. They're both down-playing the damage inflicted on the other by their own side. Both are just looking to their own and feeling butt-hurt. Both sides have to get better at clamping down on those attacking the other side, simply out of respect for one another. Until they do, any negotiation is a waste of time IMHO. And we're nowhere near that right now.

 

[Jayjay]

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.

Who says they are oppressed in Israel? The ones who are not Israeli citizens are the ones who are oppressed. The swap you outlined would move them from the non-oppressed group to the oppressed group, so of course they howled.

I'm hearing a lot of gripes about how they are supposedly being discriminated against in Israel. Now you're admitting those gripes are invalid.

They are discriminated against (for example by bigots who would like to expel them from Israel, or take their homes to trade for land for Jewish settlers), but nobody is griping about the treatment of Arab citizens of Israel nearly as much as they are about the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. But let's say someone was griping about it - just because it is a lesser form of discrimination, doesn't mean that the gripe is invalid.

Otherwise, we could dismiss every complaint about Arabs discriminating against Jews by pointing out that the Nazi Germany was treating the Jews worse, therefore their gripes are invalid.

 

[laughing dog]

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.

Who says they are oppressed in Israel? The ones who are not Israeli citizens are the ones who are oppressed. The swap you outlined would move them from the non-oppressed group to the oppressed group, so of course they howled.

I'm hearing a lot of gripes about how they are supposedly being discriminated against in Israel. Now you're admitting those gripes are invalid.

They are discriminated against (for example by bigots who would like to expel them from Israel, or take their homes to trade for land for Jewish settlers), but nobody is griping about the treatment of Arab citizens of Israel nearly as much as they are about the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. But let's say someone was griping about it - just because it is a lesser form of discrimination, doesn't mean that the gripe is invalid.

Otherwise, we could dismiss every complaint about Arabs discriminating against Jews by pointing out that the Nazi Germany was treating the Jews worse, therefore their gripes are invalid.

You are missing the salient reasons. The gripes are invalid because 1) the victims are Palestinian, and 2) the discriminators are Israelis.

 

[angelo]

Doesn't that mean that the people are mostly terrorist for voting for them.

There's no easy answer to this. It's an exceedingly complicated matter. The Palestinians do have genuine grievances to draw upon. And the settlers are fucking cunts who do everything they can to provoke the Palestinians. I'd say they qualify just as much as terrorists as Hammas. The Palestinians feel backed into a corner and are responding to it. I'd say the Palestinians have every reason to be butt-hurt about how they've been treated.

But that isn't what the discussion is about. There's no question that Israels behaviour warrants a Palestinian response. The question is what response counts as reasonable. Calling for the extermination of all Jews is frankly insane. Even if Jews would routinely eat Palestinian babies for breakfast, that response would still be over the top.

The Palestinian identity has grown mythic and overblown. It is now a victim-culture. Palestine has never been a Muslim country. It was always mostly Jewish. There is no reasonable line of argumentation that can argue all Jews out of Israel. That is insane. A two state solution is actually quite reasonable, and I'm sure reasonable people on both sides realize this. It's just that most Palestinians apparently, aren't reasonable. Another solution is to rebrand Israel as Israel-Palestine and make it a part Jewish, part Muslem and part Christian state. But this solution is completely and utterly rejected by both sides. The only solution that a majority of all Palestinians is willing to accept is a total annihilation of Israel. You can't have a reasonable discussion with people like that. It's just not going to happen.

For various reasons Palestinians aren't trying to find a solution that makes everybody happy. They're quite frankly, acting like petulant little children. Lashing out when they can't get their way. It's not like the attacks can possibly succeed. This is the ONLY Jewish country. There's nowhere else for Jews to go (at least if a Jew wants to live in a Jewish country).

I understand if Israeli voters are getting tired of Palestinian antics and just can't be bothered to engage in a dialogue with them any longer. The Palestinian discourse is so far off the deep end it's not even funny. It's loony town. That's why Israel doesn't give a fuck any longer. They're just nuking the Palestinians until they lie still...again. Israel expects that the Palestianians will just take the next opportunity to do something retarded and stupid again. As I'm sure they will. And it's an endless cycle of violence. The only thing that can break it is a reasonable Palestinian leadership. But we saw in the 2004 elections that most Palestians aren't reasonable. With an electorate like that the leadership of Palestine will NEVER be reasonable.

I'm at a loss as to what any side in this fucking mess can do about it. But I've always seen Israel as the least evil in the conflict. So they get my support. But I still acknowledge that Israel can be fucking dicks and are that frequently. They're not innocent little victims.

I applaud you for this post. It's exactly my sentiments.

 

[angelo]

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.

Indeed it does. Unless and until Israel is no longer free to raze the homes of non-Israelis living outside Israel, living within the borders where certain legal niceties apply is the safer way to build equity. Also, you get reliable cable and cell phone service, there are fewer roadblocks to negotiate on your way to work, the stores are well stocked, and the schools are better, too. And let's not even get started on what a nightmare it is for someone holding a Palestinian passport to travel abroad.

Most people object to being treated like chattel by their government. No one wants their most important life decisions to be made for them by a government that has demonstrated time and again it does not have their best interests at heart. The people involved want it to be their decision which country they live in, and who can blame them?

I wonder what folks here would say if a European country proposed turning out its Jewish citizens whether they liked it or not. I'm guessing the howls of outrage would be heard here, too. But for some reason (which most of us already know) it appears certain posters don't mind it when Palestinians are denied their rights of citizenship in oh-so-wonderfully democratic Israel.

The Palestinian leadership is bound for the UN Security Council, where it will demand a deadline for Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank. But, given the risk of a swift Hamas takeover of the West Bank, a former Israeli security official questioned the sincerity of the Palestinian demand, speculating that it may be acting against its own self-interest just to spite Israel.

Read more: Can the Palestinian Authority survive without the IDF? | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/can-the-palestinian-authority-survive-without-the-idf/#ixzz3GqXzSls9
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

 

[Arctish]

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.

Indeed it does. Unless and until Israel is no longer free to raze the homes of non-Israelis living outside Israel, living within the borders where certain legal niceties apply is the safer way to build equity. Also, you get reliable cable and cell phone service, there are fewer roadblocks to negotiate on your way to work, the stores are well stocked, and the schools are better, too. And let's not even get started on what a nightmare it is for someone holding a Palestinian passport to travel abroad.

Most people object to being treated like chattel by their government. No one wants their most important life decisions to be made for them by a government that has demonstrated time and again it does not have their best interests at heart. The people involved want it to be their decision which country they live in, and who can blame them?

I wonder what folks here would say if a European country proposed turning out its Jewish citizens whether they liked it or not. I'm guessing the howls of outrage would be heard here, too. But for some reason (which most of us already know) it appears certain posters don't mind it when Palestinians are denied their rights of citizenship in oh-so-wonderfully democratic Israel.

The Palestinian leadership is bound for the UN Security Council, where it will demand a deadline for Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank. But, given the risk of a swift Hamas takeover of the West Bank, a former Israeli security official questioned the sincerity of the Palestinian demand, speculating that it may be acting against its own self-interest just to spite Israel.

Read more: Can the Palestinian Authority survive without the IDF? | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/can-the-palestinian-authority-survive-without-the-idf/#ixzz3GqXzSls9
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Your post has little relation to mine other than they're both talking about Israel and the Occupied Territories.

Loren told us that at one point Israel was planning on "giving" Israeli communities to the West Bank government. This would have had several serious consequences for the Israelis who live there, the most important being they would lose their Israeli citizenship and be rendered stateless. They would find their communities suddenly under military occupation, their homes and properties subject to seizure and/or demolition, their commute to work difficult if not impossible, and all the other unpleasantness that comes from being a disfavored population subject to the rule of a government in which they can no longer participate. Of course, it's unlikely Loren thinks of them as "real" Israelis, and he's always been a big supporter of ethnic cleansing, so it's no wonder he doesn't see the problem. But I wonder if you do.

You spoke of Israel's democratic government in pretty admiring terms. How do you feel about this government plan to betray Israeli citizens? Are you okay with Israelis having their citizenship taken from them merely because they aren't Jews? Do you think this sort of behavior by the Israeli government might lead non-Jews to believe that Zionists will never give them fair and just treatment or respect their human rights within the lands Israel controls?

 

[angelo]

Sacrifice a few for the good of the majority.

 

[Arctish]

Sacrifice a few for the good of the majority.

Is that another Goebbels quote?

 

[angelo]

Sacrifice a few for the good of the majority.

Is that another Goebbels quote?

Why do Palestinian apologist always bring up Nazi Germany when talking about Israel? The Israeli government is caught between damned if they do and damned if they don't. No matter what they do it's never enough. Appeasement is impossible as it's already been tried more than once under different Israeli Prime Ministers over the past few decades. You cannot negotiate with an enemy that has your destruction in it's charter. It's like committing suicide to give in to these terrorists. Hamas is ISIS and ISIS is Hamas.

 

[Arctish]

Is that another Goebbels quote?

Why do Palestinian apologist always bring up Nazi Germany when talking about Israel? The Israeli government is caught between damned if they do and damned if they don't. No matter what they do it's never enough.

I'm asking you about how the Israeli government treats its non-Jewish citizens. You talked about Israel being a "free democratic country where Arabs can put up their own candidate in an a general election". You said Israel treats all its citizens the same. But Loren accidentally spilled the beans and gave us an example of Israel treating its non-Jewish citizens very badly. Israel was caught making plans to strip some citizens their Israeli citizenship, making them stateless and subject to military occupation, something that would be absolutely unthinkable if the citizens in question were Jews. Apparently, you're okay with that plan, and are willing to "acrifice a few for the good of the majority", which is something for the rest of us to keep in mind whenever you start talking about how well Israel treats the Christians and Muslims under its rule.

Appeasement is impossible as it's already been tried more than once under different Israeli Prime Ministers over the past few decades.

Can you cite a specific instance of appeasement? The only thing I know of that even came close was the Oslo Accords which was a compromise, not appeasement, and which failed when 1) the Israeli Prime Minister backing it was assassinated by a Zionist and 2) his successor halted the process by failing to turn over land as agreed and demanded a renegotiation with more limited concessions. Also, Netanyahu says he sabotaged the Accords by insisting on terms that made the whole thing a sham.

Was there any other instance where Israel offered anything close to what the Palestinians wanted?

You cannot negotiate with an enemy that has your destruction in it's charter. It's like committing suicide to give in to these terrorists. Hamas is ISIS and ISIS is Hamas.

That's why it is so important for Netanyahu to seize this opportunity to cut a deal with Abbas. If Abbas can deliver something substantial to the Palestinian people, it will undercut Hamas' influence. Also, Palestinians in general and Fatah in particular are secular. They don't much care for religious zealots but might consider allying with them to secure their state - all the more reason for Israel to make nice with the secular Palestinian leaders now before ISIS starts making inroads in the West Bank.

 

[angelo]

The total population of Isreal is what, 8 million? [I'll Google it in a min] Only less than 6 million are Jews the rest of the population is mainly Arabs. Are you trying to tell me that these Arabs are somehow second class citizens in Israel?

 

[angelo]

Here you go, look for yourself.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/newpop.html

 

[Togo]

Politics is like any market. Politicians will fill a gap if there is a need. If there is no need that gap won't be filled. It can't be overstated the insanity of the Hammas political ambition.

Their peace proposals seem to be quite reasonable.

If they'd gotten 10% of the vote, that would itself be worrying. But winning!?! That's far off the deep end. The choices wasn't Hammas or Fatah. The choices were Fatah, Hammas or some new other party which isn't either kleptocrats or terror-promotors.

how would another party get established when they can't canvass, raise money, or visit the electorate?

Can you answer any of my questions? Or are you just stuck?

?

You mentioned an number of points that suggested that you found Hamas to be crazy, insane, evil, etc. And more broadly that the Palestinians didn't want a peace settlement. Since these are simply your ideas of what is going on inside other people's heads, I asked for a source of some kind. Surely this opinion is based on something?

Again, the position that Sweden has taken is that recognition should not precede negotiations. What do you think are necessary for such negotiations to occur?

...

In the West Bank (rather than Gaza) we have a controlling authority that is actively seeking peace, proposing peace plans with some international support. And yet no negotiations are taking place. Why is that, you suppose?

You can't punch somebody in the face, stop and then claim you're an innocent victim. This is what has happened.

If you say so. But unless 'being an innocent victim' is a prerequisite for peace talks, you're kinda evading the question. Why are no negotiations taking place? They've been proposed by the Palestinians, both Hamas and Fatah, several times. What needs to happen first?

The Palestinian Authority will have to try harder than what they have done to prove to Israel that they're serious.

In what way?

There is a genuine problem that both sides feels victimized by the other. It's not a healing wound. It's just getting deeper. And they're both protecting their own sides idiots provoking conflicts. They're both down-playing the damage inflicted on the other by their own side. Both are just looking to their own and feeling butt-hurt. Both sides have to get better at clamping down on those attacking the other side, simply out of respect for one another.

How can Palestinians 'clamp down' on military brigades when their government isn't even allowed by Israel to maintain their own armed police force?

And how long would such a clamp down need to last. Fatah in the west bank have overseen several years of consecutive peace, and no peace negotiations have started. What do you suppose the hold up is?

 

[angelo]

Put simply. Negotiations cannot begin until Fatah etc accept the Jewish state. So far they refuse to do that. They say one thing to Kerry and other leaders and do another. They say what Kerry etc want to hear then do the opposite.