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Swedish Social Democratic anti-semitism

I like what you say, Dr. Zoidberg. Yeah, calling the pro-Palestinian lefties anti-semites is unfair. But sometimes you need to hit these types over the head to get their attention.

It is annoying how any gentile criticising Israel is always accused to be anti-Semitic by somebody. It does not meaningful discussions make. I don't even remember how many times I've been accused of anti-Semitism on this forum, and I'm pro-Israel! I just think that there's a hell of a lot Israel does wrong. A hell of a lot.
Like what for example? Provide a free democratic country where Arabs can put up their own candidate in an a general election? How far would a Jew get if he stood for election in Gaza or the West Bank?
 
It is annoying how any gentile criticising Israel is always accused to be anti-Semitic by somebody. It does not meaningful discussions make. I don't even remember how many times I've been accused of anti-Semitism on this forum, and I'm pro-Israel! I just think that there's a hell of a lot Israel does wrong. A hell of a lot.
Like what for example? Provide a free democratic country where Arabs can put up their own candidate in an a general election? How far would a Jew get if he stood for election in Gaza or the West Bank?

An Israeli Jew? He'd be a legitimate military target for the IDF. After all, he's running for election in Gaza, he has military training (because of compulsory military service), and he has agents throughout the area (canvassing) some of whom probably also have some history with guns, so he can killed with impunity.
 
Like what for example? Provide a free democratic country where Arabs can put up their own candidate in an a general election? How far would a Jew get if he stood for election in Gaza or the West Bank?

An Israeli Jew? He'd be a legitimate military target for the IDF. After all, he's running for election in Gaza, he has military training (because of compulsory military service), and he has agents throughout the area (canvassing) some of whom probably also have some history with guns, so he can killed with impunity.
Bullshit and if you care to admit it you know it!
 
An Israeli Jew? He'd be a legitimate military target for the IDF. After all, he's running for election in Gaza, he has military training (because of compulsory military service), and he has agents throughout the area (canvassing) some of whom probably also have some history with guns, so he can killed with impunity.
Bullshit and if you care to admit it you know it!

I'm just taking the criteria that have been cited to justify missile strikes in the Occupied territories, and applying them to the situation. If you want to argue that those criteria would not be applied to an Israeli Jew as they would to a Palestinian, then you're more than welcome to do so.
 
It is annoying how any gentile criticising Israel is always accused to be anti-Semitic by somebody. It does not meaningful discussions make. I don't even remember how many times I've been accused of anti-Semitism on this forum, and I'm pro-Israel! I just think that there's a hell of a lot Israel does wrong. A hell of a lot.
Like what for example? Provide a free democratic country where Arabs can put up their own candidate in an a general election? How far would a Jew get if he stood for election in Gaza or the West Bank?

ha ha.. that was quite a counter argument. I'm not sure how it is relevant or what it would prove. Please explain?
 
Bullshit and if you care to admit it you know it!

I'm just taking the criteria that have been cited to justify missile strikes in the Occupied territories, and applying them to the situation. If you want to argue that those criteria would not be applied to an Israeli Jew as they would to a Palestinian, then you're more than welcome to do so.

Occupied territories? The missile strikes are in retaliation to thousands of rockets fired indiscriminately into Israeli territory.
 
The comparison is between a state run by a terrorists and one run by a democratically elected government.

I fail to see how that is relevant? Most Palestians don't want Israel to exist at all. Hammas was voted into power in Gaza through a free and fair election. They have in their charter to execute every Jew. The fact that the Palestinians freely and fairly picked a terrorist organisation to represent them is bizarre. But it's not undemocratic. Why would a Jew even try to stand for office in a country like that? Democratic or otherwise.

Today it can be argued that the Palestinian authority is not a functional governing body. And whether or not a body like that is democratic is a moot point. But the 2004 election was undoubtedly democratic.
 
Doesn't that mean that the people are mostly terrorist for voting for them.

There's no easy answer to this. It's an exceedingly complicated matter. The Palestinians do have genuine grievances to draw upon. And the settlers are fucking cunts who do everything they can to provoke the Palestinians. I'd say they qualify just as much as terrorists as Hammas. The Palestinians feel backed into a corner and are responding to it. I'd say the Palestinians have every reason to be butt-hurt about how they've been treated.

But that isn't what the discussion is about. There's no question that Israels behaviour warrants a Palestinian response. The question is what response counts as reasonable. Calling for the extermination of all Jews is frankly insane. Even if Jews would routinely eat Palestinian babies for breakfast, that response would still be over the top.

The Palestinian identity has grown mythic and overblown. It is now a victim-culture. Palestine has never been a Muslim country. It was always mostly Jewish. There is no reasonable line of argumentation that can argue all Jews out of Israel. That is insane. A two state solution is actually quite reasonable, and I'm sure reasonable people on both sides realize this. It's just that most Palestinians apparently, aren't reasonable. Another solution is to rebrand Israel as Israel-Palestine and make it a part Jewish, part Muslem and part Christian state. But this solution is completely and utterly rejected by both sides. The only solution that a majority of all Palestinians is willing to accept is a total annihilation of Israel. You can't have a reasonable discussion with people like that. It's just not going to happen.

For various reasons Palestinians aren't trying to find a solution that makes everybody happy. They're quite frankly, acting like petulant little children. Lashing out when they can't get their way. It's not like the attacks can possibly succeed. This is the ONLY Jewish country. There's nowhere else for Jews to go (at least if a Jew wants to live in a Jewish country).

I understand if Israeli voters are getting tired of Palestinian antics and just can't be bothered to engage in a dialogue with them any longer. The Palestinian discourse is so far off the deep end it's not even funny. It's loony town. That's why Israel doesn't give a fuck any longer. They're just nuking the Palestinians until they lie still...again. Israel expects that the Palestianians will just take the next opportunity to do something retarded and stupid again. As I'm sure they will. And it's an endless cycle of violence. The only thing that can break it is a reasonable Palestinian leadership. But we saw in the 2004 elections that most Palestians aren't reasonable. With an electorate like that the leadership of Palestine will NEVER be reasonable.

I'm at a loss as to what any side in this fucking mess can do about it. But I've always seen Israel as the least evil in the conflict. So they get my support. But I still acknowledge that Israel can be fucking dicks and are that frequently. They're not innocent little victims.
 
Doesn't that mean that the people are mostly terrorist for voting for them.
There's no easy answer to this. It's an exceedingly complicated matter. The Palestinians do have genuine grievances to draw upon. And the settlers are fucking cunts who do everything they can to provoke the Palestinians. I'd say they qualify just as much as terrorists as Hammas. The Palestinians feel backed into a corner and are responding to it. I'd say the Palestinians have every reason to be butt-hurt about how they've been treated.

The Palestinian identity has grown mythic and overblown. It is now a victim-culture. Palestine has never been a Muslim country. It was always mostly Jewish. There is no reasonable line of argumentation that can argue all Jews out of Israel. That is insane. A two state solution is actually quite reasonable, and I'm sure reasonable people on both sides realize this. It's just that most Palestinians apparently, aren't reasonable.

So why do they keep on proposing two-state solutions?

Another solution is to rebrand Israel as Israel-Palestine and make it a part Jewish, part Muslem and part Christian state. But this solution is completely and utterly rejected by both sides.

Not so. Palestinians would be delighted with a one-state solution that would put be democratic and put them in control of the country. It's Israel that rejects this one, and quite reasonably so.

The only solution that a majority of all Palestinians is willing to accept is a total annihilation of Israel.

Source?

For various reasons Palestinians aren't trying to find a solution that makes everybody happy.

Source?

This is the ONLY Jewish country. There's nowhere else for Jews to go (at least if a Jew wants to live in a Jewish country).

It's the only Palestinian country too. It's not their fault you think of all towel-heads as basically the same.

But we saw in the 2004 elections that most Palestians aren't reasonable.

The government elected in 2004 immediately called for an end to violence, enforced a ceasefire, and started talks on a permanent peace settlement, moderated by the international community, with a detailed bargaining position that already had some international support. What's unreasonable about that?

Similarly the political landscape of Israel isn't steadfastly anti-peace either. The forces against the present policy are sufficient that the Israeli government has to form a coalition with the religious extreme right, which they're been reluctant to do in the past.

There is a huge gap in what either side sees as a reasonable settlement. Israel doesn't want a sovereign state in Palestine, because a sovereign state would be armed and a potential threat. And Palestinians don't want to accept half a state ruled by Israel. But there's always been support for a two-state solution in Palestine. Less so in Israel, because they have the upper hand and thus more to lose, but support for the settlers is not high there either.

The question is really what is it that needs to happen for there to be serious negotiations. Rocket attacks need to stop, settlement activity needs to stop, but what else. The position that Sweden has now apparently agreed to is that recognition of Palestine mustn't precede a peace settlement.

Does anyone know the reasoning behind this?
 
There's no easy answer to this. It's an exceedingly complicated matter. The Palestinians do have genuine grievances to draw upon. And the settlers are fucking cunts who do everything they can to provoke the Palestinians. I'd say they qualify just as much as terrorists as Hammas. The Palestinians feel backed into a corner and are responding to it. I'd say the Palestinians have every reason to be butt-hurt about how they've been treated.

The Palestinian identity has grown mythic and overblown. It is now a victim-culture. Palestine has never been a Muslim country. It was always mostly Jewish. There is no reasonable line of argumentation that can argue all Jews out of Israel. That is insane. A two state solution is actually quite reasonable, and I'm sure reasonable people on both sides realize this. It's just that most Palestinians apparently, aren't reasonable.

So why do they keep on proposing two-state solutions?

Another solution is to rebrand Israel as Israel-Palestine and make it a part Jewish, part Muslem and part Christian state. But this solution is completely and utterly rejected by both sides.

Not so. Palestinians would be delighted with a one-state solution that would put be democratic and put them in control of the country. It's Israel that rejects this one, and quite reasonably so.

The only solution that a majority of all Palestinians is willing to accept is a total annihilation of Israel.

Source?

For various reasons Palestinians aren't trying to find a solution that makes everybody happy.

Source?

This is the ONLY Jewish country. There's nowhere else for Jews to go (at least if a Jew wants to live in a Jewish country).

It's the only Palestinian country too. It's not their fault you think of all towel-heads as basically the same.

But we saw in the 2004 elections that most Palestians aren't reasonable.

The government elected in 2004 immediately called for an end to violence, enforced a ceasefire, and started talks on a permanent peace settlement, moderated by the international community, with a detailed bargaining position that already had some international support. What's unreasonable about that?

Similarly the political landscape of Israel isn't steadfastly anti-peace either. The forces against the present policy are sufficient that the Israeli government has to form a coalition with the religious extreme right, which they're been reluctant to do in the past.

There is a huge gap in what either side sees as a reasonable settlement. Israel doesn't want a sovereign state in Palestine, because a sovereign state would be armed and a potential threat. And Palestinians don't want to accept half a state ruled by Israel. But there's always been support for a two-state solution in Palestine. Less so in Israel, because they have the upper hand and thus more to lose, but support for the settlers is not high there either.

The question is really what is it that needs to happen for there to be serious negotiations. Rocket attacks need to stop, settlement activity needs to stop, but what else. The position that Sweden has now apparently agreed to is that recognition of Palestine mustn't precede a peace settlement.

Does anyone know the reasoning behind this?

In 2004 they voted Hammas to power. They're fucking nuts. And tried doing what they'd said they would. All the tunnels under the Gaza strip didn't dig themselves
 
The comparison is between a state run by a terrorists and one run by a democratically elected government.
It is also a comparison between a state with a 20% Arab minority, and a state with 0% Jewish minority. It would be nonsensical to expect a Jewish candidate to be elected in latter even if it were democratic.

Or to put it another way: How many Palestinians who have no Israeli citizenship (despite living their whole lives under Israeli occupation) are eligible to be elected to Knesset?
 
Bullshit and if you care to admit it you know it!

I'm just taking the criteria that have been cited to justify missile strikes in the Occupied territories, and applying them to the situation. If you want to argue that those criteria would not be applied to an Israeli Jew as they would to a Palestinian, then you're more than welcome to do so.

You're missing an important one: Attacking Israel.
 
The comparison is between a state run by a terrorists and one run by a democratically elected government.
It is also a comparison between a state with a 20% Arab minority, and a state with 0% Jewish minority. It would be nonsensical to expect a Jewish candidate to be elected in latter even if it were democratic.

Or to put it another way: How many Palestinians who have no Israeli citizenship (despite living their whole lives under Israeli occupation) are eligible to be elected to Knesset?

Why is it that an independent Palestinian state would have no Jewish citizens, yet Israel has many Arab citizens and gives them more rights than any Arab country does?
 
It is also a comparison between a state with a 20% Arab minority, and a state with 0% Jewish minority. It would be nonsensical to expect a Jewish candidate to be elected in latter even if it were democratic.

Or to put it another way: How many Palestinians who have no Israeli citizenship (despite living their whole lives under Israeli occupation) are eligible to be elected to Knesset?

Why is it that an independent Palestinian state would have no Jewish citizens, yet Israel has many Arab citizens and gives them more rights than any Arab country does?
We don't know if an independent Palestinian state will have Jewish citizens at some point, nor what kind of political representation they might have. What we do know is that the current Palestinian territories have zero Jewish citizens (as far as I know anyway) so the comparison was moot.

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.
 
Doesn't that mean that the people are mostly terrorist for voting for them.

Only if the Australian people are mostly Liberals for electing Abbott, and simultaneously mostly Labor supporters for electing Gillard. As with most democratic elections in multi-party systems, the number of voters who cast their ballot for the eventual winning party or coalition is often less than 50% of the vote, and (even where voting is mandatory for eligible citizens) almost always less than 50% of the population.

I am sure that plenty of Gazans have a 'don't blame me, I voted Fatah' attitude - but they still get bombed, no matter which way they voted.
 
Interesting discussion at last.

One false or more probably erroneous statement,

Palestine has never been a Muslim country. It was always mostly Jewish.

Please look at least at the tables in the article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine - to see what the truth is.

Repetition of lies about this subject by overzealous Israeli citizens and their supporters serve only to infuriate Palestinians, who, as many here point out are already too furious for reasonable discussion. I fail to see why this is done by the Jews. It can only be done on Hitler's or Goebbels' assertion that "a lie big enough, and repeated enough times, will eventually be accepted as the truth". Well it worked, sort of, for Bush and Co in Iraq.

But both sides are cornered by history and facing one another, and worse than that, living on the same land. Irresistible force on one side, immovable object on the other.
 
Why is it that an independent Palestinian state would have no Jewish citizens, yet Israel has many Arab citizens and gives them more rights than any Arab country does?
We don't know if an independent Palestinian state will have Jewish citizens at some point, nor what kind of political representation they might have. What we do know is that the current Palestinian territories have zero Jewish citizens (as far as I know anyway) so the comparison was moot.

Their governments have made it very clear they won't tolerate any Jews. Why do you figure they'll do the opposite of what they have repeatedly said they will do?

Israel giving civil and political rights to its Arab citizens in no way gives it a free pass to deprive its permanent Arab non-citizen residents said rights. It's not some sort of computer game where you score points and then use them elsewhere. Plus, the numebr of Jewish citizens in all Arab countries combined is only a fraction of the number of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Lets put it this way: It came to light that some of the proposed land swaps with the West Bank involved giving basically Arab communities to the West Bank government. The Arabs involved howled--they wanted to be part of Israel, not part of the West Bank. They choose to be "oppressed" in Israel vs "free" in Palestine. That says something about the actual state of affairs.
 
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