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Economist Stephanie Kelton on The Deficit Myth

I am surprised that any reputable economist would write
"The dollars the government takes by taxes cannot be spent by the people, and, therefore, these dollars can no longer be used to acquire the things which are available for sale. ". Tax revenue is spent either on things which are available for sale or redistributed to people who then spend them on things which are available for sale.

I once worked on a consulting project where the client wanted us to use a model that showed that the effect on the economy of the gov't spent $100 on tomatoes is smaller than if Heinz or consumers spent $100 on tomatoes. They got upset when we pointed out that there really is no reason to expect there to be a difference on the economy because of the identity of the spender. But that implied idea is still prevalent today. And it is still wrong.
 
I am surprised that any reputable economist would write
"The dollars the government takes by taxes cannot be spent by the people, and, therefore, these dollars can no longer be used to acquire the things which are available for sale. ". Tax revenue is spent either on things which are available for sale or redistributed to people who then spend them on things which are available for sale.

I once worked on a consulting project where the client wanted us to use a model that showed that the effect on the economy of the gov't spent $100 on tomatoes is smaller than if Heinz or consumers spent $100 on tomatoes. They got upset when we pointed out that there really is no reason to expect there to be a difference on the economy because of the identity of the spender. But that implied idea is still prevalent today. And it is still wrong.

Just guessing, but I'd say tax revenue dollars are not the "same" dollars as spent dollars. Why make such a distinction? To buttress the point that (federal) govt does not depend on revenue to spend.
 
I'm late to this thread and haven't read all 30 pages yet. I have a simple question none of my friends can answer about this (sorry if it has been covered here).

How come I still have to pay taxes if printing money is the way to go now. Everyone said the money printing in 2008 would cause hyper inflation and it didn't. Now they are doing it again as a casual response to people out of work. If the fed has a perpetual money printing machine that does not cause hyper inflation, why don't they use it to build roads and other infrastructure as well? And yes, why do I have to pay federal taxes now? They can just print what they need for the roads and other stuff and leave me alone. I would like that a lot.

Can anyone here answer that question?


1. Taxation is what gives money its value. So long as you have to pay taxes in dollars, then dollars will have value to you. So long as taxation makes dollars valuable, we can use them as a convenient medium of exchange.

2. Progressive taxation keeps rich people from owning the government and telling it to screw you over. I mean, not completely, but some. A little bit. It could be better.

3. Tax policy is social policy. Look at windmills as an example. (I'm making up this example, but I nonetheless assume it is true.) We didn't want to be at the mercy of OPEC during some crisis, so we decided to become energy-independent, in part by building windmills. It would take a whole lotta windmills, though, and nobody wanted to build them. Building windmills was not cost effective. There was no profit in windmills. The government didn't want to build windmills itself; it wanted free citizens to do so voluntarily. So we changed the tax code, making the parts cheaper, and the profits protected from taxation for a period of decades. People began to build windmills. The nudge provided by these changes in the tax code have made us an energy exporter. This energy independence gives us more national security than would be provided by an additional fleet of aircraft carriers.

4. Taxation has a deflationary effect. It tends to offset the inflationary effect created by government spending.

Let's say that government spending is half of the gross domestic product (GDP). And let's say that GDP is $100 a year. So government spends $50 a year. If it also collects $50 in taxes, the GDP will remain at $100 a year. The government adds in $50, but it also takes out $50, so the total remains constant.

But now the government hears your plea, and it quits collecting taxes. Instead it just announces that it will print $50 this year without collecting taxes. This will cut the value of the dollar by a third. A black current pop tart that costs $1 this year will cost $1.50 next year.

Next year, the GDP will be $150. (It's not that the economy has grown; it's just that dollars have gotten cheaper.) To spend half of the GDP, as before, the government will have to spend $75.

And then in the next year, the GDP would be $225, and government spending would be $112.50. And so on.

But the above example only works if people are blind idiots with no foresight at all.

Suppose, in the first year, you have a pop tart worth $1. Now the government announces there will be no taxes, so the inflation rate will be 50% per year. Are you going to sell your tart for $1 now when you can sell it for $1.50 next year? No, you won't.

You'll value your tart somewhere between $1 and $1.50. And your neighbor will value his dollar (worth less than a tart next year) at somewhere between one tart and half a tart. You strike a bargain at $1.25, and sell your tart to your neighbor.

The thing is, the government hasn't spent any money yet. It only announced that there would be a 50% inflation rate. The expectation of inflation has caused actual inflation. Which means the government can't get by on $50 this year, but will have to print $75. Which means the actual inflation rate will go up above 50%, and expectations will go above 50%, so the government will have to print even more money.
And we're still in the first year. Inflation would continue to spike after that.

So that's why we can't go tax free by running a deficit. You still want to know why we can run a deficit sometimes.

The reason we have to collect taxes is to offset the inflationary effect of government spending. Collecting taxes has a deflationary effect.

In stable times, if taxes and government spending are balanced, the value of the dollar will remain stable.

Let's return to our original hypothetical: GDP is $100. Taxation is $50. Government spending is $50.

Now Godzilla comes out of the ocean and stomps Houston flat. That's a $5 loss. That's the same loss as if government had collected an extra $5.

It doesn't matter whether you send in your tax money, or burn it in your front yard, the deflationary effect is the same. It doesn't matter whether we pay $5 in taxes or a monster stomps Houston. The economic effect is the same.

So, if government spends an extra $5 to rebuild Houston, the dollar will remain stable.

If the economy falls by $20, and government spends an extra $20, that's all good. No inflation.

But that's recession. Let's look at boom times.

GDP is $100. Taxation and government spending are both $50. But now things are looking good. Manufacturers are all thinking they can sell half again as much as usual next year. So they're competing fiercely for raw materials, bidding up prices. The dollar that bought one tart's worth of black current jam last year will only buy half as much this year. Inflation is upon us.

The proper government response is to cut spending or increase taxes. Or both. This will reduce inflation, stabilize the dollar.

So government should run a deficit (spend more than it collects) during recessions, and should run a surplus (take in more than it spends) during booms.

Your system would have government run ever-larger surpluses, regardless of the business cycle. This would lead quickly to hyperinflation.

But careful overspending during bad times and underspending in good times would not cause inflation.

A note: We like a little inflation, maybe 3 or 5 percent. But, for the sake of simplicity, my above hypotheticals have assumed that zero inflation is good.
 
I am surprised that any reputable economist would write
"The dollars the government takes by taxes cannot be spent by the people, and, therefore, these dollars can no longer be used to acquire the things which are available for sale. ". Tax revenue is spent either on things which are available for sale or redistributed to people who then spend them on things which are available for sale.

I once worked on a consulting project where the client wanted us to use a model that showed that the effect on the economy of the gov't spent $100 on tomatoes is smaller than if Heinz or consumers spent $100 on tomatoes. They got upset when we pointed out that there really is no reason to expect there to be a difference on the economy because of the identity of the spender. But that implied idea is still prevalent today. And it is still wrong.

Just guessing, but I'd say tax revenue dollars are not the "same" dollars as spent dollars. Why make such a distinction?
I agree there is no reason to make that distinction.
To buttress the point that (federal) govt does not depend on revenue to spend.
Of course it depends on revenue to spend: tax revenue and revenues from fees and licenses, along with borrowed funds. Right now, tax revenues are roughly 75% of total federal outlays.
 
So this statement is true: "The government can never be unable to pay a debt denominated in it's own currency."
No it's not true

I don't understand. Can you elaborate?
Well, if the coronavirus shuts down air freight and leaves ships floating in quarantine outside ports, then the 27-odd governments that buy their own national currency from the Canadian Bank Note Company might find themselves unable to pay their debts. They might also have a problem since the CBNC doesn't accept its own printing press's output as payment for the banknotes -- Venezuela found that out a few years ago.
 
I don't understand. Can you elaborate?
Well, if the coronavirus shuts down air freight and leaves ships floating in quarantine outside ports, then the 27-odd governments that buy their own national currency from the Canadian Bank Note Company might find themselves unable to pay their debts. They might also have a problem since the CBNC doesn't accept its own printing press's output as payment for the banknotes -- Venezuela found that out a few years ago.


A zombie plague could paralyze government's ability to function too. Or a triffid meteor shower could blind everybody.

But we were talking economic theory.
 
I agree there is no reason to make that distinction.
To buttress the point that (federal) govt does not depend on revenue to spend.
Of course it depends on revenue to spend: tax revenue and revenues from fees and licenses, along with borrowed funds. Right now, tax revenues are roughly 75% of total federal outlays.

You have it backwards.

Households have to earn money before they can spend it.

Governments have to spend money before they can tax it.

The government doesn't spend tax revenues it has collected; It taxes back the money it has spent.

Government spending is creating money; Taxation is destroying money. You must create first, then there's something to destroy. It can't be the other way around.
 
Of course it depends on revenue to spend: tax revenue and revenues from fees and licenses, along with borrowed funds. Right now, tax revenues are roughly 75% of total federal outlays.

From the same source:

The necessity for a government to tax in order to maintain both its independence and its solvency is true for state and local governments, but it is not true for a national government. Two changes of the greatest consequence have occurred in the last twenty-five years which have substantially altered the position of the national state with respect to the financing of its current requirements.

The first of these changes is the gaining of vast new experience in the management of central banks.

The second change is the elimination, for domestic purposes, of the convertibility of the currency into gold.
<Free of the Money Market

Final freedom from the domestic money market exists for every sovereign national state where there exists an institution which functions in the manner of a modern central bank, and whose currency is not convertible into gold or into some other commodity.

The United States is a national state which has a central banking system, the Federal Reserve System, and whose currency, for domestic purposes, is not convertible into any commodity. It follows that our Federal Government has final freedom from the money market in meeting its financial requirements. Accordingly, the inevitable social and economic consequences of any and all taxes have now become the prime consideration in the imposition of taxes. In general, it may be said that since all taxes have consequences of a social and economic character, the government should look to these consequences in formulating its tax policy. All federal taxes must meet the test of public policy and practical effect. The public purpose which is served should never be obscured in a tax program under the mask of raising revenue.
 
So you are making a theoretical argument, not an experience based argument. The federal gov’t does depend on tax revenue- the data make that clear.
 
So you are making a theoretical argument, not an experience based argument. The federal gov’t does depend on tax revenue- the data make that clear.

Maybe, though going off the gold standard and establishing a central bank seem pretty experiential.
Yeah, and the US federal gov't depends on tax revenue for around 75% of its spending.
 
I agree there is no reason to make that distinction.
To buttress the point that (federal) govt does not depend on revenue to spend.
Of course it depends on revenue to spend: tax revenue and revenues from fees and licenses, along with borrowed funds. Right now, tax revenues are roughly 75% of total federal outlays.

You have it backwards.

Households have to earn money before they can spend it.
No, they do not. Most do, but households can borrow money to spend it.
Governments have to spend money before they can tax it.
Why would anyone think that?
The government doesn't spend tax revenues it has collected; It taxes back the money it has spent.

Government spending is creating money; Taxation is destroying money. You must create first, then there's something to destroy. It can't be the other way around.
Taxation does not destroy money. Public money (case and coin) is an asset that is simply transferred when spent. It is not destroyed during that transfer. Private money is destroyed when loans are repaid.
 
One thing is certain, if the US government stopped collecting tax revenue and started printing money for all it's spending, I'd immediately transfer all my cash holdings to Euro as fast as I possibly could (maybe some yen, pound and RMB mixed in). I'd also be sure to negotiate any significant future contract in these other currencies. I'm sure I'm not alone.

I think I can safely say the US economy would face downturn.
 
One thing is certain, if the US government stopped collecting tax revenue and started printing money for all it's spending, I'd immediately transfer all my cash holdings to Euro as fast as I possibly could (maybe some yen, pound and RMB mixed in). I'd also be sure to negotiate any significant future contract in these other currencies. I'm sure I'm not alone.


Of course you're not alone. If they didn't collect taxes, nothing would offset the inflation their spending caused. That would destroy the value of the dollar.

But they don't need the taxes to get money to spend. They could burn all their tax revenue, and this wouldn't affect their ability to spend.
 
One thing is certain, if the US government stopped collecting tax revenue and started printing money for all it's spending, I'd immediately transfer all my cash holdings to Euro as fast as I possibly could (maybe some yen, pound and RMB mixed in). I'd also be sure to negotiate any significant future contract in these other currencies. I'm sure I'm not alone.


Of course you're not alone. If they didn't collect taxes, nothing would offset the inflation their spending caused. That would destroy the value of the dollar.

But they don't need the taxes to get money to spend. They could burn all their tax revenue, and this wouldn't affect their ability to spend.

They don't need to collect taxes to cover a significant portion of spending in the same way they don't "need" to pay any bondholders back. They do it because of the significant negative consequences of not doing so.
 
One thing is certain, if the US government stopped collecting tax revenue and started printing money for all it's spending, I'd immediately transfer all my cash holdings to Euro as fast as I possibly could (maybe some yen, pound and RMB mixed in). I'd also be sure to negotiate any significant future contract in these other currencies. I'm sure I'm not alone.


Of course you're not alone. If they didn't collect taxes, nothing would offset the inflation their spending caused. That would destroy the value of the dollar.

But they don't need the taxes to get money to spend. They could burn all their tax revenue, and this wouldn't affect their ability to spend.

They don't need to collect taxes to cover a significant portion of spending in the same way they don't "need" to pay any bondholders back. They do it because of the significant negative consequences of not doing so.


I suppose it depends what you mean by "cover."

Yes, if you put money into circulation without taking money out of circulation, then you cause inflation. We need taxes to hold down inflation.

What we don't need taxes for is to have money to spend. The limit on spending is self restraint, not some imaginary fund of collected taxes.
 
They don't need to collect taxes to cover a significant portion of spending in the same way they don't "need" to pay any bondholders back. They do it because of the significant negative consequences of not doing so.


I suppose it depends what you mean by "cover."

Yes, if you put money into circulation without taking money out of circulation, then you cause inflation. We need taxes to hold down inflation.

What we don't need taxes for is to have money to spend. The limit on spending is self restraint, not some imaginary fund of collected taxes.

It's obviously not limited by taxes collected because we have significant borrowing as well. However, borrow too much (or start printing money directly to spend without constraint) and you'll face very negative consequences. By the way, using the analysis of taxes "reducing inflation", the selling of bonds has the same goal in mind vs. printing the money, you don't let inflation get out of hand and erode trust in the dollar.

This is why its preferable to have the inflation/money supply decisions in the hands of an independent central bank, not in the hands of politicians whose decisions are guided by the next election cycle and not the long term health of the economy. Let the politicians tax and borrow for spending needs/desires and let the central bank handle the money supply and inject liquidity into the financial system as needed.
 
Yeah, and the US federal gov't depends on tax revenue for around 75% of its spending.


In what sense do we "depend on it"?
In the sense there us a debt ceiling that has historically been used to slow the increase in debt. In the sense our representatives argue over the level if taxes, tax revenue and deficit spending. Like it or not, we reky on tax revenue to support spending..
 
<<snip>>​

The only way QE reduces interest rates is by bidding UP asset prices (i.e. capital gains) which ought to stimulate spending since asset holders are wealthier.

If interest rates for treasuries are lower, then there is more gov't income for spending/less need for gov't borrowing. So the effect on spending is not contractionary.

This is known as the "Wealth Effect." While you can find many papers arguing how big it is no one believes that it produces much in the way of what is needed in a downturn, consumption spending. It has a very low bang for the buck. But it does fulfill the prime function of the government these days, in the neoliberal period, to increase the wealth of the already wealthy.

QE's do produce inflation in the stock market and in the real estate market, two areas in which inflation bizarrely is considered to be a good thing. How increasing housing costs and increasing the pressure on corporate executives to constantly increase profits usually by lowering wages and shipping manufacturing overseas are good for the economy is beyond me.
 
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