The God Zoo

[DBT]

None of this paints a nice picture of God.

 

[Lion IRC]

A 'nice' God would always agree with you, right?

Yes, of course God could immediately intervene to prevent and punish rape/rapists. And Tom Sawyer would then say God is 'nice'.

But what happens when God likewise intervenes to prevent and punish every abortion? (Because child rape is bad but murdering children is worse.) What do you and Tom Sawyer now think about this God?

 

[DBT]

A 'nice' God would always agree with you, right?

No, by the accepted moral of civilized society, a 'nice' God is one who has moral standards that are recognised by civilized society, a God that does not order executions or genocide, nor kill the innocent for the actions of the guilty...a fair and just God is a 'nice' God.

 

[James Brown]

But what happens when God likewise intervenes to prevent and punish every abortion?

Punished how? What would God do to a woman in order to punish her for getting an abortion?

Would he put her to death? That's certainly the Old Testament judgement for ending a life. But in that case the fetus would die anyway so what would be the point?

What would God to a doctor who gave a woman an abortion? Would he be put to death too?

What about someone who drove a woman to an abortion clinic? What about the nurses who helped a woman recover after the abortion? What about someone who drove a woman to the abortion clinic, or gave her money to help her out financially? Is it the death penalty all around?

I think it's safe to say that if every time a woman got an abortion, she, her doctor, and anyone who helped the procedure immediately were put to death by God, then abortions would become a thing of the past.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

A 'nice' God would always agree with you, right?

Yes, of course God could immediately intervene to prevent and punish rape/rapists. And Tom Sawyer would then say God is 'nice'.

Fify. If said being simply prevented rape (or never invented it to begin with), there would be no need for it to also punish.

But what happens when God likewise intervenes to prevent and punish every abortion?

That assumes whatever God you're talking about would consider abortion a punishable offense, which, of course, you couldn't possibly know to be the case.

And since the God you purport to believe in is supposedly an omnicapable being, then the whole concept of it punishing anyone for its own actions, let alone a woman for doing what the being knew it would do (and, indeed, could not have done without its instantiation) long before time ever began and also knew--without doubt or question--precisely what was in the woman's heart and head and the future suffering of the child to be, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

A 'nice' God would always agree with you, right?

Yes, of course God could immediately intervene to prevent and punish rape/rapists. And Tom Sawyer would then say God is 'nice'.

But what happens when God likewise intervenes to prevent and punish every abortion? (Because child rape is bad but murdering children is worse.) What do you and Tom Sawyer now think about this God?

That wouldn't be an issue. I don't know why you'd assume it would be. If God exists and actually counts abortion as the murder of a child, then then they should be about as rare as the auto accidents which never happen because angels gently move cars to the side of the road whenever one is about to occur. It just straight up shouldn't work because the coat hanger keeps slipping out of the hands of the dude the mother-to-be paid to stab it in a back alley. It is a 100% preventable crime by a god who doesn't see abortions as a good thing. Of course, as I understand your stance, your opposition to abortion is completely based on ignorance because murdering that baby is a good thing, the same as a surgeon cutting off a guy's arm is. I find your lack of faith in your god's plan by your constant negative references to the abortions he's allowing because they're beneficial actions to be disturbing and I hope you're looking forward to the eternity you're going to be spending burning in Hell for your blasphemy.

The basic point is that you made the claim that seemingly evil actions, like murdering babies or raping children, are actually good things and it is just our ignorance of God's greater plan which makes us falsely view them as evil. If we could see the "why" behind everything, our reaction would be "Huh ... well ... killing your kid was a good move. Nice job, Susan. I did not expect to have this reaction". This is because seeing the end point would allow us to categorize it the same way that we categorize a surgeon cutting off an arm to save a patient.

This was all your thesis, not mine, so we can apply it to abortion instead of child rape if you'd prefer. If God views aborting babies as a good thing, as your claim states it is by virtue of the fact that he doesn't stop people from aborting babies due to it leading to a greater good, why are you condemning abortion? Do you also think that doctors who cut off arms to save a patient's life should criminally charged for the amputation or something? I really don't get what it is that you're arguing here.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I really don't get what it is that you're arguing here.

He's arguing for his perfect world, perfect as he sees it. It's a scary place where every imaginable and unimaginable cruelty is acceptable because it is part of some greater plan.

The Aztecs cut out their sacrificial victim's heart because if they failed to give blood (blessed) sacrifice the the sun would stop and their world would end. It's all part of god's great plan for our well being.

 

[abaddon]

Theists can't make mythology and philosophy work together.

On one hand, there are the temporal events and a god's alleged actions in the world told in some tribal people's ancient tales.
On the other hand, there's the alleged divinity of a God who is all good, all knowing, all present. Who is the first cause of all that exists, the intelligent designer of life, etc.

I asked a theist who was arguing philosophy to prove EoG, to make the God he argued for fit the mythology of his Bible, knowing it's impossible to do it. He wouldn't leave the abstract argumentation and try to describe how a First Cause is also a God that tells "his people" to slaughter women and children. He wouldn't put the details of how a human sacrifice redeems sin into syllogistic form.

It doesn't work the other way either. Starting at the Bible and finding ways to make that petty tribal god a "maximally good" divine God is doomed to fail.

 

[Lion IRC]

I really don't get what it is that you're arguing here.

1. That God thinks rape is bad. (You asserted that God must think it's good.)

2. That you cant demand God stop every rape and simultaneously expect Him to allow abortion on demand. (Moral hypocrisy)

3. That God's intervention in biblical wars was done to hasten the end of that war. (End justifies the means.)

 

[DBT]

Ok, so genocide, rape and murder is fine in the eyes of this God because the means justify the end.

 

[Lion IRC]

If God's intervention results in fewer people getting raped or murdered then yes, the end DOES justify the means. And there is no logical inference that said intervention means God likes rape and murder.

 

[DBT]

If God's intervention results in fewer people getting raped or murdered then yes, the end DOES justify the means. And there is no logical inference that said intervention means God likes rape and murder.

Why an intervention where fewer people get raped or killed rather than none? If you are already intervening and it's within your power to prevent or stop, why allow even one person to be raped or killed?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I really don't get what it is that you're arguing here.

1. That God thinks rape is bad. (You asserted that God must think it's good.)

I think rape is bad so I must be god.

2. That you cant demand God stop every rape and simultaneously expect Him to allow abortion on demand. (Moral hypocrisy)

I'd like to stop every rape so I must be better than a god. But I don't think it's good to allow rape simply because I can't get my way with abortion. Gods must be immoral.

3. That God's intervention in biblical wars was done to hasten the end of that war. (End justifies the means.)

Again, I must be a god because that's what I would do. Of course if I was a god I'd prevent the war in the first place. Not too hard if I'm a god.

So this god stuff isn't really that complicated. Why are gods so stupid and impotent?

 

[Lion IRC]

If God's intervention results in fewer people getting raped or murdered then yes, the end DOES justify the means. And there is no logical inference that said intervention means God likes rape and murder.

Why an intervention where fewer people get raped or killed rather than none? If you are already intervening and it's within your power to prevent or stop, why allow even one person to be raped or killed?

We already covered this.
Yes, God can stop us doing anything.

But you don't want God to stop you from doing whatever you want.

And you want God to turn a blind eye to abortion, and adultery and blasphemy and sodomy and greed - but only when it suits you.

When Barack Obama acts to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites ISIS/Alqaeda, thats OK. But it's not OK for God to hasten the end of a war with extreme prejudice.

 

[DBT]

If God's intervention results in fewer people getting raped or murdered then yes, the end DOES justify the means. And there is no logical inference that said intervention means God likes rape and murder.

Why an intervention where fewer people get raped or killed rather than none? If you are already intervening and it's within your power to prevent or stop, why allow even one person to be raped or killed?

We already covered this.
Yes, God can stop us doing anything.

But you don't want God to stop you from doing whatever you want.

And you want God to turn a blind eye to abortion, and adultery and blasphemy and sodomy and greed - but only when it suits you.

When Barack Obama acts to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites ISIS/Alqaeda, thats OK. But it's not OK for God to hasten the end of a war with extreme prejudice.

But you, yourself said that God intervenes in human affairs, so it's only matter of degree of intervention. Why intervene here, but not there? Why prevent one rape but let another happen?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

When Barack Obama acts to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites ISIS/Alqaeda, thats OK. But it's not OK for God to hasten the end of a war with extreme prejudice.

You must be pretty unfamiliar with anti-war progressives. Not every "liberal" likes Obama. Shows how limited your understanding of the world is I suppose.

 

[DBT]

We already covered this.
Yes, God can stop us doing anything.

But you don't want God to stop you from doing whatever you want.

And you want God to turn a blind eye to abortion, and adultery and blasphemy and sodomy and greed - but only when it suits you.

When Barack Obama acts to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites ISIS/Alqaeda, thats OK. But it's not OK for God to hasten the end of a war with extreme prejudice.

But you, yourself said that God intervenes in human affairs, so it's only matter of degree of intervention. Why intervene here, but not there? Why prevent one rape but let another happen?

Barak Obama did not set out to target women, children or livestock, only combatants.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

We already covered this.
Yes, God can stop us doing anything.

But you don't want God to stop you from doing whatever you want.

And you want God to turn a blind eye to abortion, and adultery and blasphemy and sodomy and greed - but only when it suits you.

When Barack Obama acts to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites ISIS/Alqaeda, thats OK. But it's not OK for God to hasten the end of a war with extreme prejudice.

But you, yourself said that God intervenes in human affairs, so it's only matter of degree of intervention. Why intervene here, but not there? Why prevent one rape but let another happen?

Barak Obama did not set out to target women, children or livestock, only combatants.

IMO you're using the same excuses theists use to justify war crimes.

 

[DBT]

Barak Obama did not set out to target women, children or livestock, only combatants.

IMO you're using the same excuses theists use to justify war crimes.

Not really. I was focusing on the point that he had raised; ''Barack Obama acts to "utterly destroy ISIS/Alqaeda" - which doesn't mean killing the whole population. Nor does it mean that war is necessarily justified. Plus it's a completely different issue in relation to a God, who would not have human limitations.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

With God on your side who can stand against you (the Israelites)? Those the Israelites fought would always be God's enemies in the future with their ways. It stopped there.

Never mind the innocent women, children and animals....but keep the virgins for yourselves?

There's no endorsing rape- the clue is in the Virgins bit., and the understanding they had about fonication against the law and death is punishment for rape, however... having virgins IF taking for wives and not servants is not against the law.

Do you believe that the virgins willingly gave themselves to the killers of their family? '

'So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.'' - Numbers 31

That was because God had determined on a Final Solution to the Canaanite Problem.

Eldarion Lathria