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Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

Well, when you've got the President of the United States telling you that when the looting starts, the shooting starts, it's not exactly a surprise that already jacked-up testosterone monkeys, rock-hard over Helter Skelter, would be so emboldened as to openly display their true colors. However ironic.
 
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So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by an officer and then subsequently falls back... there is an audible smack with the pavement. He is motionless on the ground. One officer begins to lean down to check him as another officer stops him from doing so. This isn't the bad part.

This is in Buffalo. Two officers were suspended without pay. Their brethren (57 Police Emergency Response Team members) respond by resigning.

Fuck each and every one of those 57 assholes that think such behavior is acceptable. The guy is still in the hospital. Fucking 75 years old. This is supposed to be the time where the police step up, and it seems we are seeing the sociopaths in the police departments step up.

Fuck each and every one of those sociopaths that resigned and each one of those there that didn't even immediately go to the person's aid.

Heck, if the police can't get on board with supporting not shoving elderly people to the ground and then not tending to them immediately after a somewhat sickening fall (listen for that smack!), what chance do minorities have?
 
Calling arrest data "already suspect" is begging the question, but in any case my view was not informed by arrest data in the first place.

For consideration... the rate of arrests isn't necessarily indicative of the rate of crimes committed.

As an analogy, red vehicles get speeding tickets more often than any other color. If that's the only piece of information you have, you might assume that the drivers of red vehicles speed more often than the drivers of other colored vehicles. Turns out this isn't the case though. In actuality, red vehicles are more noticeable, they stand out more, so they catch the attention of cops. Drivers of all colors of cars speed at roughly the same rate, but the red cars get noticed and pulled over a lot more often, which results in a higher rate of ticketing for red vehicles.

There's a similar dynamic when it comes to arrests and convictions for black people. They get pulled over more often than white people do, they get stopped and come under scrutiny more often than white people do, and they're given the benefit of the doubt less often than white people. So for roughly equivalent crimes, black people are more likely to be arrested, charged, and convicted... while white people are more likely to get a warning.

By the way, women get far more warnings than men do for equivalent misbehavior. Women get the benefit of the doubt very regularly. Women commit violent crimes at a lower per capita rate than men do, but even with that being considered, their arrests are less frequent and their sentences are lower. Women commit nonviolent and petty crimes at about the same rate as men, but are arrested and sentences quite a bit less often than men.

Justice in the US isn't blind.


I'm well aware of the black-white bias, as well as the male-female bias, in investigations, arrests, convictions and sentencing.

But, that doesn't mean, for example, that I think that men don't commit more crimes than women--I think they do. The magnitude of the difference is exaggerated by the bias in the justice system.
 
So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by an officer and then subsequently falls back... there is an audible smack with the pavement. He is motionless on the ground. One officer begins to lean down to check him as another officer stops him from doing so. This isn't the bad part.

This is in Buffalo. Two officers were suspended without pay. Their brethren (57 Police Emergency Response Team members) respond by resigning.

Fuck each and every one of those 57 assholes that think such behavior is acceptable. The guy is still in the hospital. Fucking 75 years old. This is supposed to be the time where the police step up, and it seems we are seeing the sociopaths in the police departments step up.

Fuck each and every one of those sociopaths that resigned and each one of those there that didn't even immediately go to the person's aid.

Heck, if the police can't get on board with supporting not shoving elderly people to the ground and then not tending to them immediately after a somewhat sickening fall (listen for that smack!), what chance do minorities have?
And it says that the police initially tried to lie and say he tripped. If that’s true, they must be completely stupid even thinking of trying that. Any fool would have known there were multiple video cameras there, openly filming, and that getting caught lying was obviously just going to make it worse than it already was.

You can see the officer who pushed him realise the magnitude of his mistake straight away.
 
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My guess is that you’re both right. And also that there are other aspects to it. It seems to have its critics and its supporters, its pros and cons. It’s complex.

No. It's pretty simple. LD is correct.

I’m confused. Are you saying you think Jimmy wasn’t?

I'm saying that LD was much more accurate.

That does not imply that I do not respect Jimmy or his posts/content of his posts. In this particular case laughing dog was more accurate. IMO, of course.
 
I’m confused. Are you saying you think Jimmy wasn’t?

I'm saying that LD was much more accurate.

That does not imply that I do not respect Jimmy or his posts/content of his posts. In this particular case laughing dog was more accurate. IMO, of course.

Cool. So we both think LD was right.

Which just leaves why your post started with a ‘no’.

Clearly, we both agree with LD, and with Jimmy. But what you are saying is that it is as simple an issue as what one of them said.

I tend to view the Identity Politics issue, as with most of these things, as being a bit more complex and multi-faceted than what either of them said, even if I agree with them. I agree with what they said, but it isn’t the whole picture.

For example:

https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/5342/the-problem-with-identity-politics

And:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/01/how-americas-identity-politics-went-from-inclusion-to-division
 
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Calling arrest data "already suspect" is begging the question, but in any case my view was not informed by arrest data in the first place.

For consideration... the rate of arrests isn't necessarily indicative of the rate of crimes committed.

As an analogy, red vehicles get speeding tickets more often than any other color. If that's the only piece of information you have, you might assume that the drivers of red vehicles speed more often than the drivers of other colored vehicles. Turns out this isn't the case though. In actuality, red vehicles are more noticeable, they stand out more, so they catch the attention of cops. Drivers of all colors of cars speed at roughly the same rate, but the red cars get noticed and pulled over a lot more often, which results in a higher rate of ticketing for red vehicles.

There's a similar dynamic when it comes to arrests and convictions for black people. They get pulled over more often than white people do, they get stopped and come under scrutiny more often than white people do, and they're given the benefit of the doubt less often than white people. So for roughly equivalent crimes, black people are more likely to be arrested, charged, and convicted... while white people are more likely to get a warning.

By the way, women get far more warnings than men do for equivalent misbehavior. Women get the benefit of the doubt very regularly. Women commit violent crimes at a lower per capita rate than men do, but even with that being considered, their arrests are less frequent and their sentences are lower. Women commit nonviolent and petty crimes at about the same rate as men, but are arrested and sentences quite a bit less often than men.

Justice in the US isn't blind.

How much of this is attitude, though?
 
I’m confused. Are you saying you think Jimmy wasn’t?

I'm saying that LD was much more accurate.

That does not imply that I do not respect Jimmy or his posts/content of his posts. In this particular case laughing dog was more accurate. IMO, of course.

Cool. So we both think LD was right.

Which just leaves why your post started with a ‘no’.

Clearly, we both agree with LD, and with Jimmy. But what you are saying is that it is as simple an issue as what one of them said.

I tend to view the Identity Politics issue, as with most of these things, as being a bit more complex and multi-faceted than what either of them said, even if I agree with them. I agree with what they said, but it isn’t the whole picture.

For example:

https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/5342/the-problem-with-identity-politics

And:

https://www.theguardian.com/society...tity-politics-went-from-inclusion-to-division

I'm sorry for the confusion: I was saying that you are mistaken. There are no pros/cons.
 
So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by an officer and then subsequently falls back... there is an audible smack with the pavement. He is motionless on the ground. One officer begins to lean down to check him as another officer stops him from doing so. This isn't the bad part.

This is in Buffalo. Two officers were suspended without pay. Their brethren (57 Police Emergency Response Team members) respond by resigning.

Fuck each and every one of those 57 assholes that think such behavior is acceptable. The guy is still in the hospital. Fucking 75 years old. This is supposed to be the time where the police step up, and it seems we are seeing the sociopaths in the police departments step up.

Fuck each and every one of those sociopaths that resigned and each one of those there that didn't even immediately go to the person's aid.

Heck, if the police can't get on board with supporting not shoving elderly people to the ground and then not tending to them immediately after a somewhat sickening fall (listen for that smack!), what chance do minorities have?
And it says that the police initially tried to lie and say he tripped. If that’s true, they must be completely stupid even thinking of trying that. Any fool would have known there were multiple video cameras there, openly filming, and that getting caught lying was obviously just going to make it worse than it already was.

You can see the officer who pushed him realise the magnitude of his mistake straight away.

I'm just speculating here, but I wonder if the 57 officers who resigned did so because they felt that upper echelons had put them in a completely untenable position and then threw them under the bus.

If they were given orders to 'take back' the streets in a certain manner, a manner in which they'd been trained, and that's exactly what they did, then those two officers shouldn't have been hung out to dry. Placed on paid leave or assigned to desk duty while the incident is investigated, sure. Given a formal reprimand or fired if they violated orders or deviated from standard procedures, definitely. But not placed on unpaid leave and be in danger of losing their jobs just for doing their jobs the way they'd been trained to do it.

I'm not saying that's what happened, and I'm not saying I approve of what we all saw in that video. I'm trying to understand why 57 cops would suddenly resign like that. I'm trying to see things from their p.o.v.

If they were trained to follow Plan A, ordered to follow Plan A, and followed Plan A exactly as ordered, then the people who developed and chose to implement Plan A should step up and defend their choices and their officers.
 
So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by an officer and then subsequently falls back... there is an audible smack with the pavement. He is motionless on the ground. One officer begins to lean down to check him as another officer stops him from doing so. This isn't the bad part.

This is in Buffalo. Two officers were suspended without pay. Their brethren (57 Police Emergency Response Team members) respond by resigning.

Fuck each and every one of those 57 assholes that think such behavior is acceptable. The guy is still in the hospital. Fucking 75 years old. This is supposed to be the time where the police step up, and it seems we are seeing the sociopaths in the police departments step up.

Fuck each and every one of those sociopaths that resigned and each one of those there that didn't even immediately go to the person's aid.

Heck, if the police can't get on board with supporting not shoving elderly people to the ground and then not tending to them immediately after a somewhat sickening fall (listen for that smack!), what chance do minorities have?
And it says that the police initially tried to lie and say he tripped. If that’s true, they must be completely stupid even thinking of trying that. Any fool would have known there were multiple video cameras there, openly filming, and that getting caught lying was obviously just going to make it worse than it already was.

You can see the officer who pushed him realise the magnitude of his mistake straight away.
Are you beginning to understand why people have chants about killing cops in the US?
 
So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by an officer and then subsequently falls back... there is an audible smack with the pavement. He is motionless on the ground. One officer begins to lean down to check him as another officer stops him from doing so. This isn't the bad part.

This is in Buffalo. Two officers were suspended without pay. Their brethren (57 Police Emergency Response Team members) respond by resigning.

Fuck each and every one of those 57 assholes that think such behavior is acceptable. The guy is still in the hospital. Fucking 75 years old. This is supposed to be the time where the police step up, and it seems we are seeing the sociopaths in the police departments step up.

Fuck each and every one of those sociopaths that resigned and each one of those there that didn't even immediately go to the person's aid.

Heck, if the police can't get on board with supporting not shoving elderly people to the ground and then not tending to them immediately after a somewhat sickening fall (listen for that smack!), what chance do minorities have?
And it says that the police initially tried to lie and say he tripped. If that’s true, they must be completely stupid even thinking of trying that. Any fool would have known there were multiple video cameras there, openly filming, and that getting caught lying was obviously just going to make it worse than it already was.

You can see the officer who pushed him realise the magnitude of his mistake straight away.

I'm just speculating here, but I wonder if the 57 officers who resigned did so because they felt that upper echelons had put them in a completely untenable position and then threw them under the bus.

If they were given orders to 'take back' the streets in a certain manner, a manner in which they'd been trained, and that's exactly what they did, then those two officers shouldn't have been hung out to dry. Placed on paid leave or assigned to desk duty while the incident is investigated, sure. Given a formal reprimand if they violated orders or deviated from standard procedures, definitely. But not placed on unpaid leave and not be in danger of losing their jobs just for doing their jobs.

I'm not saying that's what happened, and I'm not saying I approve of what we all saw in that video. But if they were trained to follow Plan A, ordered to follow Plan A, and followed Plan A exactly as ordered, then the people who developed and chose to implement Plan A should step up and defend their choices and their officers.

No, all of them should be fired. The ones who gave the orders, the ones who followed them...
 
Democratic group compares Trump to Latin American strongmen in new ad | TheHill
A new campaign ad aimed at Hispanic voters in Florida negatively portrays President Trump as an anti-democratic figure akin to Latin American "caudillos" or strongmen.

...
“From threatening reporters and militarizing the streets, to weaponizing the Justice Department to exact political vendettas, this administration's abuse of power is all too familiar to Latinos," said Daniela Martins, national press secretary for Priorities USA.

"Donald Trump is acting like a caudillo. Priorities USA will not let his authoritarian tendencies go unchecked. Our ads will continue to tell the truth about his failed leadership and hold him accountable for his efforts to erode our democracy,” she added.

57 Buffalo officers resign from Emergency Response Team after two cops suspended | TheHill

Voices grow in condemnation of Trump's military response to protests | TheHill
High-ranking current and former defense officials are piling on condemnations of President Trump’s handling of this week’s protests following the death of George Floyd.

On Friday, 89 former military officials - including Defense Secretaries Leon Panetta, Chuck Hagel and Ash Carter - wrote in an op-ed that they were “alarmed” at Trump’s threats to order troops to quell protests.
89 former Defense officials: The military must never be used to violate constitutional rights - The Washington Post
 
Calling arrest data "already suspect" is begging the question, but in any case my view was not informed by arrest data in the first place.

For consideration... the rate of arrests isn't necessarily indicative of the rate of crimes committed.

As an analogy, red vehicles get speeding tickets more often than any other color. If that's the only piece of information you have, you might assume that the drivers of red vehicles speed more often than the drivers of other colored vehicles. Turns out this isn't the case though. In actuality, red vehicles are more noticeable, they stand out more, so they catch the attention of cops. Drivers of all colors of cars speed at roughly the same rate, but the red cars get noticed and pulled over a lot more often, which results in a higher rate of ticketing for red vehicles.

There's a similar dynamic when it comes to arrests and convictions for black people. They get pulled over more often than white people do, they get stopped and come under scrutiny more often than white people do, and they're given the benefit of the doubt less often than white people. So for roughly equivalent crimes, black people are more likely to be arrested, charged, and convicted... while white people are more likely to get a warning.

By the way, women get far more warnings than men do for equivalent misbehavior. Women get the benefit of the doubt very regularly. Women commit violent crimes at a lower per capita rate than men do, but even with that being considered, their arrests are less frequent and their sentences are lower. Women commit nonviolent and petty crimes at about the same rate as men, but are arrested and sentences quite a bit less often than men.

Justice in the US isn't blind.

How much of this is attitude, though?

Can you be more specific? Whose attitude/which case(s) are you talking about.
 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html
"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans told WGRZ on Friday. WKBW also reported news of the resignations.

Amazing that people unironically use the "just following orders" excuse. Amazing.

It reminds me of when people use the phrase "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" in a way that isn't meant to mock that sentiment, because doing what that metaphor describes is is actually impossible.
 
So a 75 year old gets pushed needlessly by an officer and then subsequently falls back... there is an audible smack with the pavement. He is motionless on the ground. One officer begins to lean down to check him as another officer stops him from doing so. This isn't the bad part.

This is in Buffalo. Two officers were suspended without pay. Their brethren (57 Police Emergency Response Team members) respond by resigning.

Fuck each and every one of those 57 assholes that think such behavior is acceptable. The guy is still in the hospital. Fucking 75 years old. This is supposed to be the time where the police step up, and it seems we are seeing the sociopaths in the police departments step up.

Fuck each and every one of those sociopaths that resigned and each one of those there that didn't even immediately go to the person's aid.

Heck, if the police can't get on board with supporting not shoving elderly people to the ground and then not tending to them immediately after a somewhat sickening fall (listen for that smack!), what chance do minorities have?
And it says that the police initially tried to lie and say he tripped. If that’s true, they must be completely stupid even thinking of trying that. Any fool would have known there were multiple video cameras there, openly filming, and that getting caught lying was obviously just going to make it worse than it already was.

You can see the officer who pushed him realise the magnitude of his mistake straight away.

I'm just speculating here, but I wonder if the 57 officers who resigned did so because they felt that upper echelons had put them in a completely untenable position and then threw them under the bus.

If they were given orders to 'take back' the streets in a certain manner, a manner in which they'd been trained, and that's exactly what they did, then those two officers shouldn't have been hung out to dry. Placed on paid leave or assigned to desk duty while the incident is investigated, sure. Given a formal reprimand or fired if they violated orders or deviated from standard procedures, definitely. But not placed on unpaid leave and be in danger of losing their jobs just for doing their jobs the way they'd been trained to do it.

I'm not saying that's what happened, and I'm not saying I approve of what we all saw in that video. I'm trying to understand why 57 cops would suddenly resign like that. I'm trying to see things from their p.o.v.

If they were trained to follow Plan A, ordered to follow Plan A, and followed Plan A exactly as ordered, then the people who developed and chose to implement Plan A should step up and defend their choices and their officers.

Did you see the video? I believe they were rightly put on unpaid leave. I haven't gone back and watched a third time, but I believe one officer immediately started to check on the gentleman who was on the ground and the other pushed him off. A BUNCH of officers walked right on past a man who had not behaved aggressively, who was laying on the ground, bleeding apparently from his ear (sign of closed head injury, not merely scalp laceration) and...did nothing to stop and give aid. There were no shots fired, no emergency.

But if you are correct, then whoever issued orders such that they were NOT to stop and offer assistance to injured persons, then that person should also be placed on leave and investigated.
 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html
"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans told WGRZ on Friday. WKBW also reported news of the resignations.

Amazing that people unironically use the "just following orders" excuse. Amazing.

It reminds me of when people use the phrase "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" in a way that isn't meant to mock that sentiment, because doing what that metaphor describes is is actually impossible.

I'm going to start a nationwide campaign for cops who support the mistreatment of these two cops to also resign.
 
If they were given orders to 'take back' the streets in a certain manner, a manner in which they'd been trained, and that's exactly what they did, then those two officers shouldn't have been hung out to dry. Placed on paid leave or assigned to desk duty while the incident is investigated, sure. Given a formal reprimand or fired if they violated orders or deviated from standard procedures, definitely. But not placed on unpaid leave and be in danger of losing their jobs just for doing their jobs the way they'd been trained to do it.

I'm not saying that's what happened, and I'm not saying I approve of what we all saw in that video. I'm trying to understand why 57 cops would suddenly resign like that. I'm trying to see things from their p.o.v.

If they were trained to follow Plan A, ordered to follow Plan A, and followed Plan A exactly as ordered, then the people who developed and chose to implement Plan A should step up and defend their choices and their officers.
I don't care if they were following orders. Those orders were wrong. And they should have disobeyed them. Frankly, I say good riddance to those 57 officers unless they are resigning because of the orders.
 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html
"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans told WGRZ on Friday. WKBW also reported news of the resignations.

Amazing that people unironically use the "just following orders" excuse. Amazing.

It reminds me of when people use the phrase "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" in a way that isn't meant to mock that sentiment, because doing what that metaphor describes is is actually impossible.

I'm going to start a nationwide campaign for cops who support the mistreatment of these two cops to also resign.

According to Rachel Maddow, they didn't resign from the police force, just the emergency response team.
 
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