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The Battle Over Your Money

Are you aware that virtually all currencies are fiat?

It is my understanding that the 1940's Bretton Woods agreement required the US dollar to be tied to a gold standard. And for that requirement other countries would agree to use the US dollar as reserve currency of the world. But the US breached their part of the agreement in 1971.

If you look at history, it is between the 1940's and 1971. Those are the years the dollar was not only currency but real money. And those are also the years where the middle class was not screwed out of their productive gains by the fed cabal and banksters.
I think you are confusing correlation with causation. After WWII, the US was the only industrialized country left untouched by the war. We benefited from the rebuilding of Europe and the growth of Asia. Which had nothing whatsoever to do with "real money" (whatever that is).
That only answers why America has declined as a manufacturing powerhouse. But fails to address the wealth disparity and income inequality that suddenly begins starting at 1971. Take a look here : https://wtfhappenedin1971.com
 
Are you aware that virtually all currencies are fiat?

It is my understanding that the 1940's Bretton Woods agreement required the US dollar to be tied to a gold standard. And for that requirement other countries would agree to use the US dollar as reserve currency of the world. But the US breached their part of the agreement in 1971.

If you look at history, it is between the 1940's and 1971. Those are the years the dollar was not only currency but real money. And those are also the years where the middle class was not screwed out of their productive gains by the fed cabal and banksters.
I think you are confusing correlation with causation. After WWII, the US was the only industrialized country left untouched by the war. We benefited from the rebuilding of Europe and the growth of Asia. Which had nothing whatsoever to do with "real money" (whatever that is).
There is a HUGE difference between currency and money. Currency is just worthless fiat paper governments can assign for convenience to settle barter transactions between individuals. But money, OTOH is also a store of value in addition to serving as a medium of exchange.

Currency is only valuable if the people have faith that it will buy things. But money never loses value. Because it has utility besides being used for barter.
 
Ever hear of a 51% attack?

Using any cryptocurrency for an economy would be a truly horrible thing.

Lets say we were utterly stupid and actually switched to bitcoin.

Russia secretly invests in a lot of bitcoin mining hardware. Everything looks fine until they day they decide to blow up our economy by buying a bunch of bitcoins and spending each one many, many times for things they can actually haul off. We lose a lot of things and our currency is destroyed.

You have totally lost me with your example Loren. Can you better explain what the hell you are talking about.
 
Are you aware that virtually all currencies are fiat?

It is my understanding that the 1940's Bretton Woods agreement required the US dollar to be tied to a gold standard. And for that requirement other countries would agree to use the US dollar as reserve currency of the world. But the US breached their part of the agreement in 1971.

If you look at history, it is between the 1940's and 1971. Those are the years the dollar was not only currency but real money. And those are also the years where the middle class was not screwed out of their productive gains by the fed cabal and banksters.

I thought the income inequality started a bit later, like the 80's. NYC's brush with bankruptcy started that ball rolling, and that was in 1975.
 
I think you are confusing correlation with causation. After WWII, the US was the only industrialized country left untouched by the war. We benefited from the rebuilding of Europe and the growth of Asia. Which had nothing whatsoever to do with "real money" (whatever that is).
There is a HUGE difference between currency and money. Currency is just worthless fiat paper governments can assign for convenience to settle barter transactions between individuals. But money, OTOH is also a store of value in addition to serving as a medium of exchange.

Currency is only valuable if the people have faith that it will buy things. But money never loses value. Because it has utility besides being used for barter.
Your explanation did not address your conflation of correlation with causation.

Your "money" can lose value when its value in barter declines. Just like currency's value loses value when its value in exchange declines.
 
Are you aware that virtually all currencies are fiat?

It is my understanding that the 1940's Bretton Woods agreement required the US dollar to be tied to a gold standard. And for that requirement other countries would agree to use the US dollar as reserve currency of the world. But the US breached their part of the agreement in 1971.

If you look at history, it is between the 1940's and 1971. Those are the years the dollar was not only currency but real money. And those are also the years where the middle class was not screwed out of their productive gains by the fed cabal and banksters.

I thought the income inequality started a bit later, like the 80's. NYC's brush with bankruptcy started that ball rolling, and that was in 1975.

Coincidentally, those years (mid 1940s - 1964) were when top marginal tax rates were 90% and above, and infrastucture investments were a noticeable percentage of federal spending.
Times were (economically) good. Then the looting began.
 
Ever hear of a 51% attack?

Using any cryptocurrency for an economy would be a truly horrible thing.

Lets say we were utterly stupid and actually switched to bitcoin.

Russia secretly invests in a lot of bitcoin mining hardware. Everything looks fine until they day they decide to blow up our economy by buying a bunch of bitcoins and spending each one many, many times for things they can actually haul off. We lose a lot of things and our currency is destroyed.

You have totally lost me with your example Loren. Can you better explain what the hell you are talking about.


If a single entity controls more than half of the bitcoin mining network (which is documented to have happened on occasion) the entity can dictate what winds up on the blockchain, effectively negating transactions and replacing them with others, i.e., spending the same bitcoin twice.

And Loren didn't even mention the vulnerability of the public key crypto used in bitcoin to quantum computing...
 
Your "money" can lose value when its value in barter declines. Just like currency's value loses value when its value in exchange declines.
You know for sure its currency if the value can reach zero as in Zimbabwe currency. And you know for its money if it always has some kind of value. Like gold or silver. You may find someone who thinks gold has no value but you will never find everyone thinking that.
 
Ever hear of a 51% attack?

Using any cryptocurrency for an economy would be a truly horrible thing.

Lets say we were utterly stupid and actually switched to bitcoin.

Russia secretly invests in a lot of bitcoin mining hardware. Everything looks fine until they day they decide to blow up our economy by buying a bunch of bitcoins and spending each one many, many times for things they can actually haul off. We lose a lot of things and our currency is destroyed.

You have totally lost me with your example Loren. Can you better explain what the hell you are talking about.


If a single entity controls more than half of the bitcoin mining network (which is documented to have happened on occasion) the entity can dictate what winds up on the blockchain, effectively negating transactions and replacing them with others, i.e., spending the same bitcoin twice.

And Loren didn't even mention the vulnerability of the public key crypto used in bitcoin to quantum computing...

I just dont know that much about bitcoin yet. But I do know it was designed to facilitate a transaction between 2 parties without a 3rd party clearing process. So Loren or anyone else buying up more than 50 percent to somehow control it makes no sense at all. That would be against the primary purpose that brought about its invention.
 
If a single entity controls more than half of the bitcoin mining network (which is documented to have happened on occasion) the entity can dictate what winds up on the blockchain, effectively negating transactions and replacing them with others, i.e., spending the same bitcoin twice.

And Loren didn't even mention the vulnerability of the public key crypto used in bitcoin to quantum computing...

I just dont know that much about bitcoin yet. But I do know it was designed to facilitate a transaction between 2 parties without a 3rd party clearing process. So Loren or anyone else buying up more than 50 percent to somehow control it makes no sense at all. That would be against the primary purpose that brought about its invention.

Or, it could be the primary reason.
 
Your "money" can lose value when its value in barter declines. Just like currency's value loses value when its value in exchange declines.
You know for sure its currency if the value can reach zero as in Zimbabwe currency. And you know for its money if it always has some kind of value. Like gold or silver. You may find someone who thinks gold has no value but you will never find everyone thinking that.
You have just shifted the goalposts. First you argue about losing value. Commodity money (gold, silver or whatever) can and has lost value in history.

None of your misunderstanding about money or currency explains your claim about how bank and fed "fraudsters" have screwed the middle class since the US went off the gold standard.
 
Your "money" can lose value when its value in barter declines. Just like currency's value loses value when its value in exchange declines.
You know for sure its currency if the value can reach zero as in Zimbabwe currency. And you know for its money if it always has some kind of value. Like gold or silver. You may find someone who thinks gold has no value but you will never find everyone thinking that.
You have just shifted the goalposts. First you argue about losing value. Commodity money (gold, silver or whatever) can and has lost value in history.
.
But never to zero. In 3000+ years of known history, gold has never been worthless. Quite the opposite can be said actually in that an oz of gold has pretty much always been able to buy the same amount of goods and/or services throughout known history. Remarkably stable value over an extremly long period of time.
 
None of your misunderstanding about money or currency explains your claim about how bank and fed "fraudsters" have screwed the middle class since the US went off the gold standard.
The 2008 bankster bailouts would have been impossible under the Bretton Woods gold standard.

Banks and hedgefund managers kept their jobs and bonuses. The middle class lost much of their wealth
 
It is my understanding that the 1940's Bretton Woods agreement required the US dollar to be tied to a gold standard. And for that requirement other countries would agree to use the US dollar as reserve currency of the world. But the US breached their part of the agreement in 1971.

If you look at history, it is between the 1940's and 1971. Those are the years the dollar was not only currency but real money.

Are you under the impression that a yellow rock somehow inherently constitutes "real" money?
 
None of your misunderstanding about money or currency explains your claim about how bank and fed "fraudsters" have screwed the middle class since the US went off the gold standard.
The 2008 bankster bailouts would have been impossible under the Bretton Woods gold standard.

Banks and hedgefund managers kept their jobs and bonuses. The middle class lost much of their wealth

That's due to politics. We could've nationalized the banks, but chose not to. Free Market Private Enterprise etc.
 
None of your misunderstanding about money or currency explains your claim about how bank and fed "fraudsters" have screwed the middle class since the US went off the gold standard.
The 2008 bankster bailouts would have been impossible under the Bretton Woods gold standard.

So would the enormous profits the government made off of those bailouts.

Banks and hedgefund managers kept their jobs and bonuses.

Tell that to Lehman Brothers. 25,000 people lost their jobs in just that one firm.

And for the record, the only reason someone should lose their job is if they did something criminal. The sole reason why the 2008 collapse happened was because the so-called "Big Three" credit rating agencies--S&P Global Ratings (S&P), Moody's, and the Fitch Group--all independently screwed the pooch (Fitch Group less so than S&P; S&P less so than Moody's) when it came to properly evaluating the underlying investments in order to give mortgage-backed securities their unjustifiably high ratings.

Iow, it is their fault entirely for not doing the one job they all have. Had they valued this junk--in the exact same way others discovered the imminent collapse, by simply looking at the underlying mortgages and who they went to--there never would have been a collapse, because no one would have ever used these vehicles as money-markets (i.e., low yield cash equivalent investments where rich people park their money until month or quarter-end investing in alternative assets).

The only other major contributing factor to the downfall was the outsourcing of mortgage loan due-diligence by banks. No bank should underwrite a loan that they did not "personally" investigate, but that's not criminal behavior, that's just bad business. Because the banks were one step removed from doing any due diligence on the mortgages, it allowed mortgage brokers to focus on their commissions rather than the bank's financial well-being, but the reason they did so was because it was believed--yes, believed--that by bundling riskier loans with a majority of non-risky loans, risk was mitigated sufficiently and that's why the Big Three gave them such high ratings.

If the 30% of riskier loans defaulted, the 70% of less-risky loans that would not default would bear the weight. Or something to that effect. I'm oversimplifying, of course, but that's the gist and it's a sound theory that, again, had the Big Three properly weighted in their ratings would have prevented all of this debacle in the first place (especially when banks pushed more and more junk into the investment pool mix, making them more unstable and therefore should have been rated lower and lower each time they did it).

The middle class lost much of their wealth

Temporarily and that primarily in regard to net wealth; i.e., the market value of their home--which constitutes one of the largest assets for the middle class--went temporarily under, but now the same home has re-established the same value and then some, at least before Trump trashed the place.

There are many reasons to hate Republicans and their abysmal fiscal irresponsibilities, but the 2008 collapse is not one of them. The whole thing can be chalked up to the fact that Corporate America--particularly in finance--is made up almost exclusively of C students who do the majority of the nuts and bolts and here it came down to people who should have dug deeper, but just didn't, because one hand didn't even know the other needed washing.

But it wasn't the result of some grand coordinated conspiracy of a monolithic banking cabal out to defraud mom & pop. Some places--people, really--knew that they were pushing junk, but then that's nothing new in the finance world. That's precisely what drives almost all banking and investment regulation; the requirement that everyone who does so fully understands the risks involved and can afford to whether them. It's not mandatory, ffs. It's a goddamned casino and you're always playing Craps. Or, worse and more accurately, Roulette (sometimes, Russian).
 
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Ever hear of a 51% attack?

Using any cryptocurrency for an economy would be a truly horrible thing.

Lets say we were utterly stupid and actually switched to bitcoin.

Russia secretly invests in a lot of bitcoin mining hardware. Everything looks fine until they day they decide to blow up our economy by buying a bunch of bitcoins and spending each one many, many times for things they can actually haul off. We lose a lot of things and our currency is destroyed.

You have totally lost me with your example Loren. Can you better explain what the hell you are talking about.

If you have 51% of the mining pool under your control all the protections of the cryptocurrency vanish. You can counterfeit to your heart's content. We have seen crimes of this sort already in the smaller cryptocurrencies.

If your nation ran on a cryptocurrency it would be one hell of a target. Steal everything you can and then trash the data, in effect destroying everyone's money.
 
You have just shifted the goalposts. First you argue about losing value. Commodity money (gold, silver or whatever) can and has lost value in history.
.
But never to zero. In 3000+ years of known history, gold has never been worthless. Quite the opposite can be said actually in that an oz of gold has pretty much always been able to buy the same amount of goods and/or services throughout known history. Remarkably stable value over an extremly long period of time.
Laughing dog didn't say gold has gone to zero. After gold peaked in 1980 at nearly $700/oz, it fell down to around $300 for the next 20 years. And FWIW, I am not anti-gold. I even hold some in an IRA via the ticker PHYS.

1971 is not a magical year. Sure the the US dollar tie to gold finally croaked, but that was just the culmination of a decade of big international issues. The dollar-gold peg was going to die one way or another. The Bretton Woods system/period also wasn't magical, and in hindsight had some big flaws. Currencies locked to gold values have big problems of their own, and modern economies and the large growth over the last century would have been crippled by a Gold Standard.

Here is a decent short history, that even someone who bothers with Youtube 'education' should be able to get thru (read the whole Wiki article):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system
By 1968, the attempt to defend the dollar at a fixed peg of $35/ounce, the policy of the Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson administrations, had become increasingly untenable. Gold outflows from the U.S. accelerated, and despite gaining assurances from Germany and other nations to hold gold, the unbalanced fiscal spending of the Johnson administration had transformed the dollar shortage of the 1940s and 1950s into a dollar glut by the 1960s. In 1967, the IMF agreed in Rio de Janeiro to replace the tranche division set up in 1946. Special drawing rights (SDRs) were set as equal to one U.S. dollar, but were not usable for transactions other than between banks and the IMF. Nations were required to accept holding SDRs equal to three times their allotment, and interest would be charged, or credited, to each nation based on their SDR holding. The original interest rate was 1.5%.

The intent of the SDR system was to prevent nations from buying pegged gold and selling it at the higher free market price, and give nations a reason to hold dollars by crediting interest, at the same time setting a clear limit to the amount of dollars that could be held.

Nixon Shock
Main article: Nixon Shock
A negative balance of payments, growing public debt incurred by the Vietnam War and Great Society programs, and monetary inflation by the Federal Reserve caused the dollar to become increasingly overvalued.[43] The drain on U.S. gold reserves culminated with the London Gold Pool collapse in March 1968.[44] By 1970, the U.S. had seen its gold coverage deteriorate from 55% to 22%. This, in the view of neoclassical economists, represented the point where holders of the dollar had lost faith in the ability of the U.S. to cut budget and trade deficits.

In 1971 more and more dollars were being printed in Washington, then being pumped overseas, to pay for government expenditure on the military and social programs. In the first six months of 1971, assets for $22 billion fled the U.S. In response, on 15 August 1971, Nixon issued Executive Order 11615 pursuant to the Economic Stabilization Act of 1970, unilaterally imposing 90-day wage and price controls, a 10% import surcharge, and most importantly "closed the gold window", making the dollar inconvertible to gold directly, except on the open market. Unusually, this decision was made without consulting members of the international monetary system or even his own State Department, and was soon dubbed the Nixon Shock.
 
If a single entity controls more than half of the bitcoin mining network (which is documented to have happened on occasion) the entity can dictate what winds up on the blockchain, effectively negating transactions and replacing them with others, i.e., spending the same bitcoin twice.

And Loren didn't even mention the vulnerability of the public key crypto used in bitcoin to quantum computing...

I just dont know that much about bitcoin yet. But I do know it was designed to facilitate a transaction between 2 parties without a 3rd party clearing process. So Loren or anyone else buying up more than 50 percent to somehow control it makes no sense at all. That would be against the primary purpose that brought about its invention.

You don't need to buy up 50% of it. You need to control 50%+1 of the mining pool. That's what authenticates the transactions. Anyone is free to join the mining pool.

And there is a third party--the mining pool authenticates the transactions.

You admit you are ignorant of how it works, why do you think that somehow gives you the knowledge to rebut those of us who do understand? I gave you enough in my message--googling "51% attack" tells you about the problem.
 
None of your misunderstanding about money or currency explains your claim about how bank and fed "fraudsters" have screwed the middle class since the US went off the gold standard.
The 2008 bankster bailouts would have been impossible under the Bretton Woods gold standard.

Banks and hedgefund managers kept their jobs and bonuses. The middle class lost much of their wealth

And under a gold standard things would have been much worse. Can you say "Great Depression"?
 
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