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Finnish man ordered by court to pay alimony for a child resulting from his wife cheating: this week in the strange death of Europe

My rule-set was based on the concept of consent. I did not write a family law act that covered every detail about what acts or omissions count as consent or can nullify consent.

Well apparently in the eye of the Finnish law, the guy in the OP expressed consent to being a father to a child he know is not his biologically by continuing to act as a father and failing to file for the nullification of his fatherhood in due time. He actually had the possibility to shed all obligation, which he didn't take.

You see, "it should all be based on consent" is too vague even to preclude, in and of itself, the exact outcome in the OP. Your "rule-set" is so vague that we can't actually tell whether it really would fare better even in this one case than current Finnish law.
 
Well apparently in the eye of the Finnish law, the guy in the OP expressed consent to being a father to a child he know is not his biologically by continuing to act as a father and failing to file for the nullification of his fatherhood in due time. He actually had the possibility to shed all obligation, which he didn't take.

He didn't consent in the first place.

You see, "it should all be based on consent" is too vague even to preclude, in and of itself, the exact outcome in the OP.

I explained in detail in post 221 what I thought was the fairest possible outcome.


Your "rule-set" is so vague that we can't actually tell whether it really would fare better even in this one case than current Finnish law.

I'm done here, Jokodo. I am not writing a family law act to provide for you an opportunity to, in bad faith, dismiss every aspect of it by suggesting it cannot withstand every imagined soap-opera level of intrigue and betrayal you can concoct.
 
He didn't consent in the first place.
He didn't choose to raise a child that's not his, but when he found out, he nonetheless continued to act as a father.

He doesn't get to return the child 5 years later. If you order a bike with a red seat and are given one with a blue seat, you're entitled to a full refund - but not after you chose to ignore the wrong color and ride it for two years. By that time we take it that you've shown through your deeds that you consent to the purchase of the bike even if it isn't the one you ordered.
I explained in detail in post 221 what I thought was the fairest possible outcome.

Yes you did explain what you'd consider a fair outcome. You have not explained how eould go about you guarantee such an outcome.

Your "rule-set" is so vague that we can't actually tell whether it really would fare better even in this one case than current Finnish law.

I'm done here, Jokodo. I am not writing a family law act to provide for you an opportunity to, in bad faith, dismiss every aspect of it by suggesting it cannot withstand every imagined soap-opera level of intrigue and betrayal you can concoct.
 
Note that it's not an uncommon definition of "slut" to refer to irresponsible sexuality. And I would consider having a child in an affair to be irresponsible.

Hm. Not convinced that's not an uncommon definition. I've tried the first 8 regular dictionaries google threw up, the Urban Dictionary, and wiki. And I've not personally heard of that definition before.

I've never seen it defined that way but most of the time I encounter someone described as a slut it does involve irresponsible sex, not merely promiscuity.
 
It wouldn't be fair to the child, if a father who "never consented" can walk away from a relationship any time he wants with no obligations. Suppose the couple stays together for 5 years, and then divorce. Woman files for child support, and the man responds by filing for annulment. The end result is that a biological father who never knew the child is now suddenly on the hook for the child support payments. I don't see how that is fair either.

What's unfair about the real father being on the hook? Just because he didn't know doesn't mean it didn't happen.
You mean: sperm donor. The real father is the woman’s husband.

Here we disagree. The woman's husband had no role in the creation of the child.
 
Why is it a pity to use the word slut to describe a woman who cheated on her husband, passed off her slutty boyfriend's child as her husband's responsibility, then filed for divorce and sole custody, then used a technicality to stick him for €50K?

Don't get me wrong, I'm every bit as judgemental about men who behave as badly as that woman did. I'm really quite a prude when it comes to procreation. And I realize that the English language doesn't have words that convey that disgust concerning men. She's a slut. He's a stud. I dislike that aspect of English, but I'm not in charge of standard usage.
Tom

I think 'slut' is by now fairly commonly used to refer to men as well as women (though still mostly used against women). That said I think it carries unnecessary baggage, imo (that 'stud' doesn't). Personally, I think it's a bit unwarranted to call either of them sluts just on the basis of having an affair outside their marriages. It's really just my personal opinion though. Affairs can happen for all sorts of reasons. Typically, needs (emotional or physical) aren't being met or are not being perceived to be met in the marriage. I'm not saying that's the case here, for either her or her lover. Imo, affairs are wrong, but not slutty. Perhaps if someone had several lovers.....but then I'd prefer the more neutral promiscuous. I accept that to some extent, it's partly just me, and partly what baggage such words can have.

I've never heard a man called a slut but the term should apply.

I would not call her a slut for having an affair. I would call her a slut for having a child in an affair.
 
Note that it's not an uncommon definition of "slut" to refer to irresponsible sexuality. And I would consider having a child in an affair to be irresponsible.

Hm. Not convinced that's not an uncommon definition. I've tried the first 8 regular dictionaries google threw up, the Urban Dictionary, and wiki. And I've not personally heard of that definition before.

I've never seen it defined that way but most of the time I encounter someone described as a slut it does involve irresponsible sex, not merely promiscuity.

I've only ever encountered it in relation to promiscuity. Perhaps you haven't seen it defined your way because it would in fact be an unusual meaning. :)

I'm not saying it's necessarily a heinous accusation. Some women even want to reclaim the word. And if a person calls promiscuous persons of both sexes sluts then I guess they're not being sexist. But personally, I'm dubious about the word because of the baggage it carries. I personally would avoid using it for that reason. Even 'promiscuous' often has pejorative connotations attached that I don't like.
 
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You mean: sperm donor. The real father is the woman’s husband.

Here we disagree. The woman's husband had no role in the creation of the child.

Other than trying intensely to make the thing that happened happen? Other than actually doing all the things that make you a father?

He fathered that child longer than she bore it. Apparently b that's"nothing" though.
 
I think things are often tough for men in divorce cases when there are children involved, and men can end up being hard done by.

I think things are often tough for women in rape cases, and women can end up being hard done by.

(For example, about 2 years ago there was an outcry in Spain when a bunch of men who dragged a woman into an alley and gang-raped her, and then put videos of it online, didn't get a rape conviction because the woman didn't struggle).

What I'm saying is that in the round, what appear to be what we might call unjust outcomes happen.

I'm good with being annoyed by this one (based on what we know) but I'm not on board with the underlying 'death of civilization' thing.

Then you have not noticed the general trend of population decline which always seems to follow female empowerment.
 
Then you have not noticed the general trend of population decline which always seems to follow female empowerment.

1. It may or may not be true that there is a causal relationship between the two things.

2. You say it like it's a bad thing.
 
You mean: sperm donor. The real father is the woman’s husband.

Here we disagree. The woman's husband had no role in the creation of the child.

Other than trying intensely to make the thing that happened happen? Other than actually doing all the things that make you a father?

He fathered that child longer than she bore it. Apparently b that's"nothing" though.

Socially, he was the father. Being the social father is not necessary to a child support award so it shouldn't be justification for a child support award.
 
Socially, he was the father. Being the social father is not necessary to a child support award so it shouldn't be justification for a child support award.

Was he the social father though? He left 2 months after finding out it wasn't biologically his child, when the child hadn't had his second birthday. Prior to that he wasn't so much a social father as someone who mistakenly thought he was actually the father in every sense.

I can understand the case regarding the social father thing being stronger if he had stayed longer after finding out. I can understand the father-child bond thing being significant if a man has unwittingly been the cuckold father for years and years (some men only find out when the child grows up for example). But neither seems to apply here.

Granted, he apparently saw the child from time to time after that (for about 6 months) but still, leaving the family unit is not nothing.
 
I think things are often tough for men in divorce cases when there are children involved, and men can end up being hard done by.

I think things are often tough for women in rape cases, and women can end up being hard done by.

(For example, about 2 years ago there was an outcry in Spain when a bunch of men who dragged a woman into an alley and gang-raped her, and then put videos of it online, didn't get a rape conviction because the woman didn't struggle).

What I'm saying is that in the round, what appear to be what we might call unjust outcomes happen.

I'm good with being annoyed by this one (based on what we know) but I'm not on board with the underlying 'death of civilization' thing.

Then you have not noticed the general trend of population decline which always seems to follow female empowerment.

Dropping birth rates seem to follow moderate wealth and education of broad segments of the population more than female empowerment. FFS, Saudi Arabia's total fertility rate has dropped from 7.3 to 2.3 since the late 1970s, and they're hardly a shining beacon of female empowerment. Iran's is under 2.0.

If anything, given similar circumstances, female empowerment seems to slow the drop of the birth rate: Within Western Europe, it is strongly traditional countries like Italy, where the overwhelming majority of children (in the 75-80% range) are still born into traditional families, to married couples, where women tend to lay down work for at least a few years, which have the lowest total fertility rates in the 1.3 children per woman range. Countries like Sweden or Iceland, with strong measures to empower women and far less importance assigned to traditional family arrangements (in both countries, majorities of children are born out of wedlock - which doesn't have to mean they grow up without a father, just that their parents never bothered to get married which they may consider a useless formality), we find around 1.9 children per woman - about 50% more.

tl;dr: reality just knocked on the door to call out your BS for BS…
 
I think things are often tough for men in divorce cases when there are children involved, and men can end up being hard done by.

I think things are often tough for women in rape cases, and women can end up being hard done by.

(For example, about 2 years ago there was an outcry in Spain when a bunch of men who dragged a woman into an alley and gang-raped her, and then put videos of it online, didn't get a rape conviction because the woman didn't struggle).

What I'm saying is that in the round, what appear to be what we might call unjust outcomes happen.

I'm good with being annoyed by this one (based on what we know) but I'm not on board with the underlying 'death of civilization' thing.

Then you have not noticed the general trend of population decline which always seems to follow female empowerment.

Dropping birth rates seem to follow moderate wealth and education of broad segments of the population more than female empowerment. FFS, Saudi Arabia's total fertility rate has dropped from 7.3 to 2.3 since the late 1970s, and they're hardly a shining beacon of female empowerment. Iran's is under 2.0.

If anything, given similar circumstances, female empowerment seems to slow the drop of the birth rate: Within Western Europe, it is strongly traditional countries like Italy, where the overwhelming majority of children (in the 75-80% range) are still born into traditional families, to married couples, where women tend to lay down work for at least a few years, which have the lowest total fertility rates in the 1.3 children per woman range. Countries like Sweden or Iceland, with strong measures to empower women and far less importance assigned to traditional family arrangements (in both countries, majorities of children are born out of wedlock - which doesn't have to mean they grow up without a father, just that their parents never bothered to get married which they may consider a useless formality), we find around 1.9 children per woman - about 50% more.

tl;dr: reality just knocked on the door to call out your BS for BS…

What's more, the lowest total fertility rate of any country in the world is found in South Korea - also the OECD country with the highest gender pay gap.
 
Dropping birth rates seem to follow moderate wealth and education of broad segments of the population more than female empowerment. FFS, Saudi Arabia's total fertility rate has dropped from 7.3 to 2.3 since the late 1970s, and they're hardly a shining beacon of female empowerment. Iran's is under 2.0.

If anything, given similar circumstances, female empowerment seems to slow the drop of the birth rate: Within Western Europe, it is strongly traditional countries like Italy, where the overwhelming majority of children (in the 75-80% range) are still born into traditional families, to married couples, where women tend to lay down work for at least a few years, which have the lowest total fertility rates in the 1.3 children per woman range. Countries like Sweden or Iceland, with strong measures to empower women and far less importance assigned to traditional family arrangements (in both countries, majorities of children are born out of wedlock - which doesn't have to mean they grow up without a father, just that their parents never bothered to get married which they may consider a useless formality), we find around 1.9 children per woman - about 50% more.

tl;dr: reality just knocked on the door to call out your BS for BS…

What's more, the lowest total fertility rate of any country in the world is found in South Korea - also the OECD country with the highest gender pay gap.

Good points.

My guess is that what we are calling female empowerment is probably in the interacting mix of relevant factors. For example increased education and earning power is, for women, empowering.

I think the death of civilisation RVonse is concerned about (he can correct me if I'm wrong) is 'not enough white people'. Which I think is a slightly different (if possibly in some ways related*) death of civilisation concern to metaphor's, which, in its broadest sense might be called 'men losing out' (with feminists and especially radical feminists as the main culprits, but also what is called woke or leftist/progressive culture and politics generally).

* perhaps as in "man, especially white man, is under attack". This may be extended to include straight and cis-gendered, but isn't always.

Now, that may or may not be true (I think it is to some extent, and I also think that it's partly male or white fragility) but the point is that some see themselves as defending themselves against perceived threats and unfairnesses. Some of it is, imo, about male or white insecurity (obviously, the latter extends to concerned women also). My own view is that this is to at least some extent justifiable and understandable (while also imo being exaggerated) and that not acknowledging or addressing it sufficiently or even dismissing it more or less out of hand, as some tend to do (I don't mean you), is not helpful, generally.
 
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Dropping birth rates seem to follow moderate wealth and education of broad segments of the population more than female empowerment. FFS, Saudi Arabia's total fertility rate has dropped from 7.3 to 2.3 since the late 1970s, and they're hardly a shining beacon of female empowerment. Iran's is under 2.0.

If anything, given similar circumstances, female empowerment seems to slow the drop of the birth rate: Within Western Europe, it is strongly traditional countries like Italy, where the overwhelming majority of children (in the 75-80% range) are still born into traditional families, to married couples, where women tend to lay down work for at least a few years, which have the lowest total fertility rates in the 1.3 children per woman range. Countries like Sweden or Iceland, with strong measures to empower women and far less importance assigned to traditional family arrangements (in both countries, majorities of children are born out of wedlock - which doesn't have to mean they grow up without a father, just that their parents never bothered to get married which they may consider a useless formality), we find around 1.9 children per woman - about 50% more.

tl;dr: reality just knocked on the door to call out your BS for BS…

What's more, the lowest total fertility rate of any country in the world is found in South Korea - also the OECD country with the highest gender pay gap.

Good points.

My guess is that what we are calling female empowerment is probably in the interacting mix of relevant factors. For example increased education and earning power is, for women, empowering.

I think the death of civilisation RVonse is concerned about (he can correct me if I'm wrong) is 'not enough white people'. Which I think is a slightly different (if possibly in some ways related*) death of civilisation concern to metaphor's, which, in its broadest sense might be called 'men losing out' (with feminists and especially radical feminists as the main culprits, but also what is called woke or leftist/progressive culture and politics generally).

* perhaps as in "man, especially white man, is under attack". This may be extended to include straight and cis-gendered, but isn't always.

Now, that may or may not be true (I think it is to some extent, and I also think that it's partly male or white fragility) but the point is that some see themselves as defending themselves against perceived threats and unfairnesses. Some of it is, imo, about male or white insecurity (obviously, the latter extends to concerned women also). My own view is that this is to at least some extent justifiable and understandable (while also imo being exaggerated) and that not acknowledging or addressing it sufficiently or even dismissing it more or less out of hand, as some tend to do (I don't mean you), is not helpful, generally.

Psychologically, what's going on in these threads is quite simple really: There's always two things Metaphor finds bad, one's almost always feminism, and the other one whatever's on the menue, in this case the outcome of this particular court case. He somehow convinces himself that the second one is obviously, objectively bad, and also easily avoided, and then fancies some kind of causal connection between the two that allows him to paint his aversion against feminism as equally fact-based since, you know, "feminism directly leads to things like this".

Never mind that the problem in this case stems from a law that was probably drafted before any feminist activist alive was even born, in a time when cheap and reliable DNA tests weren't a thing, when in case of dispute, a jury would oftentimes have to weigh circumstantial evidence in paternity cases. Never mind that, while I agree the outcome of this particular case seems intuitively bad based on what we know, cases like this may not be easily avoidable - we haven't yet seen a proposal for an alternate rule set that doesn't also produce similarly dissatisfying results, possibly at higher rates.
 
I'm not sure Metaphor is saying this, but he could be saying that unjust laws are bad for society in the long run.
 
I'm not sure Metaphor is saying this, but he could be saying that unjust laws are bad for society in the long run.

And I wouldn't disagree with him if he were saying that.

He just has neither shown this law to be particularly unjust in general. We agree it misdelivered in a rare edge case, but other sets of rules will misdeliver in other edge cases, and we have not seen a proposal where I feel confident that such problematic edge cases would definitely, certainly be rarer than in the current Finnish legal framework.

And he has not shown that this is in any way related to feminism, progressivism, the "woke", or indeed any development of the last 50 years. Quite the opposite - it rather seems like part of the problem might stem from the very fact that the relevant part of the law has not been updated for some 50 years or so - since before cheap and reliable DNA tests became an option.
 
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