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Police in Utah gun down black cosplayer

Yes it does matter that the weapon was not real. In this case, the trained police officer should wait until he or she is sure. And if the police officer is wrong, the he or she should be held accountable. For some reason, you seem unable to comprehend that yet another person (yes, black men are people) is dead. To call this "suicide by cop" is, IMO, not just disrespectful to the victim, but is a sociopathic handwaving dismissal of a serious problem.
This is hallucinatory. Self defense requires an actual threat or a realistic perception of a threat.

Foot, meet bullet.

"or a realistic perception of a threat"--which is exactly what I'm saying!
So you are saying that trained police officers should not be able to discern when someone is a real threat? Someone in a role playing costume, holding a toy sword and amiably chatting with police should not be a realistic perception of a threat, even if the wielder is a black man.
 
Yes it does matter that the weapon was not real. In this case, the trained police officer should wait until he or she is sure. And if the police officer is wrong, the he or she should be held accountable. For some reason, you seem unable to comprehend that yet another person (yes, black men are people) is dead. To call this "suicide by cop" is, IMO, not just disrespectful to the victim, but is a sociopathic handwaving dismissal of a serious problem.
Self defense is not based on the actual facts, but rather what the person in the situation was aware of.
This is hallucinatory. Self defense requires an actual threat or a realistic perception of a threat.
There is a good definition of "self-defense" at dictionary.law.com

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1909

self-defense
n. the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger.

The definition depends on something subjective: "...has reason to believe...". That means a person can be WRONG about the need to act in self-defense, so long as the judgment was reasonable. And it makes sense. If you have a gun-look-alike pointed at your head, and it is not actually a gun but has the appearance of a gun, then you are legally justified acting in self-defense. If you have any instinct for self-preservation, you are not going to take seriously the possibility that it is not a real gun, or it is not loaded, or the aggressor has no intention of shooting, or whatever.
 
Whatever happened to non-lethal measures?

Why have those seemed to be abandoned and "shoot to kill first" replaced them?
 
Whatever happened to non-lethal measures?

Why have those seemed to be abandoned and "shoot to kill first" replaced them?
I think it would be appropriate to use non-deadly force if the aggressor is unarmed. If the aggressor is armed and an apparent threat to the public, then deadly force is probably the only appropriate response. Do you have in mind like a taser?
 
That means a person can be WRONG about the need to act in self-defense, so long as the judgment was reasonable. And it makes sense.

The problem is that not everyone agrees on what the word "reasonable" means. I guess that's why they have juries...
 
Whatever happened to non-lethal measures?

Why have those seemed to be abandoned and "shoot to kill first" replaced them?
I think it would be appropriate to use non-deadly force if the aggressor is unarmed. If the aggressor is armed and an apparent threat to the public, then deadly force is probably the only appropriate response. Do you have in mind like a taser?

taser, mace, night stick, rubber bullets, beanbag gun . . . there are lots of different tools that can take down an armed person without having to resort to shooting to kill.
 
They did not respond with deadly force (they could have done a better job, though).
Read the report... all of the bullets passed through the suspect's limbs. the one that killed him was deflected through the elbow and into his side. They were trying to disarm / disable him, not kill him. Otherwise, it would have been one shot though the head. If this person did not run at pedestrians with a sword he was swinging "hard" at the cop, then they would not have shot at the hand that was holding it and he would not have been killed after several shots through his arm finally deflected in a deadly way.

- - - Updated - - -

I think it would be appropriate to use non-deadly force if the aggressor is unarmed. If the aggressor is armed and an apparent threat to the public, then deadly force is probably the only appropriate response. Do you have in mind like a taser?

taser, mace, night stick, rubber bullets, beanbag gun . . . there are lots of different tools that can take down an armed person without having to resort to shooting to kill.

Which of these did the department provide the cops, and of those, which would have been effective at disarming him at the range and posture in question? After being shot several times in the limbs, he still didn;t drop the sword... you think a rubber bullet would have? Fucking bleeding heart pinko attitude, that.
 
Foot, meet bullet.

"or a realistic perception of a threat"--which is exactly what I'm saying!
So you are saying that trained police officers should not be able to discern when someone is a real threat? Someone in a role playing costume,

He was not in a role playing costume. He was wearing a red shirt, jeans, and shoes of the sort found in the men's section of Target.

holding a toy sword

Holding what appeared to be a sword, was sheathed so they couldn't see the blade (until he pulled it out and swung it), and which Hunt himself repeatedly referred to as "a sword", never indicating it was a toy despite the fact that the cops kept referring to the sword and asking him to put it down, thus he clearly knew the cops thought is was real and had just posted on Facebook about how cops might shoot him because of it.


and amiably chatting with police
.
IOW, smiling as he refused to put what he called "my sword" down when asked by the police to put "the sword" down which he knew they thought was real and deliberately fueled that perception by referring to it as a sword. Cops deal with mentally unstable people like Hunt on a regular basis, and their emotional responses are often disjointed from how a rational person would respond.


should not be a realistic perception of a threat,

While he was smiling and "chatting" in that pic, the cops did not yet determined he was a deadly threat despite his refusal to put down what looked like and what Hunt called his "sword". That is why the cops don't have their guns out, or even their hand on the holster. If he was shot for being black and merely holding a toy, he'd by dead already in that pic. He unsheathed the sword, then ran towards some stores and shoppers. Only then did the cops shoot him and that is supported by all evidence. Despite a witness saying he swung the sword at the cops, that isn't even critical since their job isn't just to protect their own lives but that of others and Hunt's actions we're highly consistent with that of an unstable armed individual intending to harm others. Their are only two plausible accounts of the evidence and his actions (which includes his Facebook post). Either he did intend to harm others (which would be true if the sword were real, but something the cops couldn't know for sure), or he intended to make the cops think his sword was real and that was going to harm someone (which the cops would reasonably have thought no matter his race). The cops were not in a position to distinguish between those two probabilities and either way, Hunts own actions were largely responsible for his death and akin to walking into a bank with a toy gun, then not putting it down and still calling it "your gun" and not a toy when the cops come. Technically doing that would be as legal as what Hunt did, yet no reasonable person would put most the blame on the cops.

even if the wielder is a black man.

At least you got one thing correct, he wasn't just holding a sword, he wielded it, and it was only then that the cops responded with force.
 
He unsheathed the sword, then ran towards some stores and shoppers. Only then did the cops shoot him

I don't know about you but I want my cops to unload their weapons toward all those stores and shoppers a suspecting is running to. That's just good police work right there.
 
So you are saying that trained police officers should not be able to discern when someone is a real threat? Someone in a role playing costume,

He was not in a role playing costume. He was wearing a red shirt, jeans, and shoes of the sort found in the men's section of Target.
According to the cited news report -
Springs wearing a red shirt and blue pants similar to an anime character


Holding what appeared to be a sword, was sheathed so they couldn't see the blade (until he pulled it out and swung it), and which Hunt himself repeatedly referred to as "a sword", never indicating it was a toy despite the fact that the cops kept referring to .
IOW, smiling as he refused to put what he called "my sword" down when asked by the police to put "the sword" down which he knew they thought was real and deliberately fueled that perception by referring to it as a sword. Cops deal with mentally unstable people like Hunt on a regular basis, and their emotional responses are often disjointed from how a rational person would respond.
is there a point here?


While he was smiling and "chatting" in that pic, the cops did not yet determined he was a deadly threat despite his refusal to put down what looked like and what Hunt called his "sword". That is why the cops don't have their guns out, or even their hand on the holster. If he was shot for being black and merely holding a toy, he'd by dead already in that pic. He unsheathed the sword, then ran towards some stores and shoppers. Only then did the cops shoot him and that is supported by all evidence. Despite a witness saying he swung the sword at the cops, that isn't even critical since their job isn't just to protect their own lives but that of others and Hunt's actions we're highly consistent with that of an unstable armed individual intending to harm others. Their are only two plausible accounts of the evidence and his actions (which includes his Facebook post). Either he did intend to harm others (which would be true if the sword were real, but something the cops couldn't know for sure), or he intended to make the cops think his sword was real and that was going to harm someone (which the cops would reasonably have thought no matter his race). The cops were not in a position to distinguish between those two probabilities and either way, Hunts own actions were largely responsible for his death and akin to walking into a bank with a toy gun, then not putting it down and still calling it "your gun" and not a toy when the cops come. Technically doing that would be as legal as what Hunt did, yet no reasonable person would put most the blame on the cops.
From the cited article
A narrative in the autopsy states an officer fired three shots when Darrien Hunt charged at him, swinging the sword, as the officer got out of his car. Darrien Hunt ran away and police fired four more times as they chased him, the report says. The autopsy found no drugs in his system.
which basically contradicts your narrative. And if you had bothered to read the article, you'd have seen that
The autopsy shows four of the gunshots found in Hunt's body traveled back to front.
. Springs did not remotely threaten anyone else directly. Your claim the police were not in a position to distinguish is an indictment of the police. All in all, your reactionary defense of this killing by police is very unconvincing.
 
The question remains: if he charged the officers, why would he do such a thing?
 
He was not in a role playing costume. He was wearing a red shirt, jeans, and shoes of the sort found in the men's section of Target.
According to the cited news report -
Springs wearing a red shirt and blue pants similar to an anime character

Yeah, you shouldn't blindly believe incompetent journalists when there is clear pics of his normal street clothes. His clothing was "similar" to an anime character only in the sense that there is character with a red shirt. What his clothing was similar to was that of millions of normally dressed people and what is on the rack at almost every department store. Those are the objective facts and any effort to pretend that his clothing indicated to a "costume" is purely dishonest. 99.9% of observers would not think his clothing was anything other than normal street clothes.

Holding what appeared to be a sword, was sheathed so they couldn't see the blade (until he pulled it out and swung it), and which Hunt himself repeatedly referred to as "a sword", never indicating it was a toy despite the fact that the cops kept referring to .
IOW, smiling as he refused to put what he called "my sword" down when asked by the police to put "the sword" down which he knew they thought was real and deliberately fueled that perception by referring to it as a sword. Cops deal with mentally unstable people like Hunt on a regular basis, and their emotional responses are often disjointed from how a rational person would respond.
is there a point here?

The point is that the cops could not tell it was fake and Hunt deliberately reinforced their idea that it was real by calling it "a sword" and not ever attempting to point out that it was fake, as every sane person not looking to get shot would have done in that situation. Hunt deliberately tried to make the cops think his sword was real and thus he was a threat. There is no psychologically plausible explanation for his behavior.


While he was smiling and "chatting" in that pic, the cops did not yet determined he was a deadly threat despite his refusal to put down what looked like and what Hunt called his "sword". That is why the cops don't have their guns out, or even their hand on the holster. If he was shot for being black and merely holding a toy, he'd by dead already in that pic. He unsheathed the sword, then ran towards some stores and shoppers. Only then did the cops shoot him and that is supported by all evidence. Despite a witness saying he swung the sword at the cops, that isn't even critical since their job isn't just to protect their own lives but that of others and Hunt's actions we're highly consistent with that of an unstable armed individual intending to harm others. Their are only two plausible accounts of the evidence and his actions (which includes his Facebook post). Either he did intend to harm others (which would be true if the sword were real, but something the cops couldn't know for sure), or he intended to make the cops think his sword was real and that was going to harm someone (which the cops would reasonably have thought no matter his race). The cops were not in a position to distinguish between those two probabilities and either way, Hunts own actions were largely responsible for his death and akin to walking into a bank with a toy gun, then not putting it down and still calling it "your gun" and not a toy when the cops come. Technically doing that would be as legal as what Hunt did, yet no reasonable person would put most the blame on the cops.
From the cited article
A narrative in the autopsy states an officer fired three shots when Darrien Hunt charged at him, swinging the sword, as the officer got out of his car. Darrien Hunt ran away and police fired four more times as they chased him, the report says. The autopsy found no drugs in his system.
which basically contradicts your narrative.

It fully supports my narrative and fully falsifies any notion that he was shot merely for being black and holding an apparent sword, since the pic shows he was black and holding the sword when the cops arrived and yet they stood there and talking to him without being close to shooting him until, as the autopsy supports, he swung the sword toward them than ran away. It is perfectly consistent with Hunt acting to deliberately increase his perception as a threat and only then being shot.

And if you had bothered to read the article, you'd have seen that
The autopsy shows four of the gunshots found in Hunt's body traveled back to front.
If did read the article, and those shots to the back fully support that the cops continued to fire because he ran in the direction of other people. The facts really could not be more supportive of the cops story and more definitively refuting of the notion that he was shot just for being black and holding a toy. Again, your narrative predicts that he should already be dead in that pic and never had a chance to "chat" with the cops


. Springs did not remotely threaten anyone else directly.

Who is "Springs"? The guy was Darrien Hunt and your own cited autopsy plus and eyewitteness supports that he threatened the cops with his sword after refusing to put it down, then he ran with what he reinforced the cops to believe was a deadly weapon toward other people. Shooting him was far more justified than would have been letting him run. The only reasonable alternative would have been disabling him with a less deadly weapon, all of which are less reliable and accurate in that situation with a fleeing suspect who given his age and seeming fitness would have been much faster than them.


Your claim the police were not in a position to distinguish is an indictment of the police.

No, its a recognition that the police are only human and they didn't have your 20/20 hindsight of knowing it was fake only because you've been told that, a fact you would not have had you been in the situation. IT is an only an "indictment" if you are a egomaniacal narcissist that cannot imagine the psychological reality of the situation the cops were in and the split-second decision they needed to make about a man who went out of his way to reinforce the possibility that the sword was real and he was a threat. By the time they shot him, his actions and words greatly favored the sword being real and he being a mentally unstable threat.

All in all, your reactionary defense of this killing by police is very unconvincing.

My defense is not reactionary, it is reasoned and unbiased, something you should try. Your condemnation of the cops is what is based purely on ideology and emotion, without a shred of thought to how all the facts logically cohere together and with the possible accounts.
 
If did read the article, and those shots to the back fully support that the cops continued to fire because he ran in the direction of other people.

Not sure why we should be approving of cops blasting away in the direction of people other than the suspect.
 
The question remains: if he charged the officers, why would he do such a thing?

That really is not the key question, because even if he had not charged them, and merely ran with the sword toward other people (which he did), the cops would be justified in shooting him.

But as to why he would have "charged" or swung the sword towards them, it is likely for the same reason that he refused to put down the sword, and why he referred to it as "my sword" without trying to mention during his "chat" that is was not real as any sane person would have done. It was because, as his Facebook post supports, he went out with the sword with the a priori intent of having a confrontation with the police and leading them to view him as a threat.

- - - Updated - - -

If did read the article, and those shots to the back fully support that the cops continued to fire because he ran in the direction of other people.

Not sure why we should be approving of cops blasting away in the direction of people other than the suspect.

Not sure why you make the baseless assumption that the other people were at all in the line of fire. Hopefully, they would stop him before he got close to other people.
 
If he was running in the direction of other people then the police were firing in the direction of other people. QED

However the story says he was running behind some buildings so he wasn't running towards other people and thus wasn't an immediate danger to others and so deadly force was not justified.

Again I ask, why do so many cops seem to leap right to shooting people without exhausting non-lethal ways of apprehension first?
 
According to the cited news report -
Springs wearing a red shirt and blue pants similar to an anime character

Yeah, you shouldn't blindly believe incompetent journalists when there is clear pics of his normal street clothes. His clothing was "similar" to an anime character only in the sense that there is character with a red shirt. What his clothing was similar to was that of millions of normally dressed people and what is on the rack at almost every department store. Those are the objective facts and any effort to pretend that his clothing indicated to a "costume" is purely dishonest.
Unless you have seen a picture of the victim in his clothes, the objective fact is you have no objective facts to back up these particular claims.

The point is that the cops could not tell it was fake and Hunt deliberately reinforced their idea that it was real by calling it "a sword" and not ever attempting to point out that it was fake, as every sane person not looking to get shot would have done in that situation.
The objective fact is that the police did not discern it was fake not that they necessarily could not tell.
Hunt deliberately tried to make the cops think his sword was real and thus he was a threat. There is no psychologically plausible explanation for his behavior.
First, the conclusion he was a threat does not follow from your premise. And, of course there alternative explanations. He was playing a joke or he was confused come to mind.

It fully supports my narrative and fully falsifies any notion that he was shot merely for being black and holding an apparent sword, since the pic shows he was black and holding the sword when the cops arrived and yet they stood there and talking to him without being close to shooting him until, as the autopsy supports, he swung the sword toward them than ran away. It is perfectly consistent with Hunt acting to deliberately increase his perception as a threat and only then being shot.
I see reasoning is not your strong point. It is entirely consistent with them mistaking him for a threat because he was black. And it does not support your narrative that he was a threat to others.
If did read the article, and those shots to the back fully support that the cops continued to fire because he ran in the direction of other people. The facts really could not be more supportive of the cops story and more definitively refuting of the notion that he was shot just for being black and holding a toy.
Once again, you are simply wrong. You don't know if he ran in the direction of other people. And, of course, instead of firing into the back of someone running away, the police could have chased the man in order to assess what was likely to happen.
Again, your narrative predicts that he should already be dead in that pic and never had a chance to "chat" with the cops
Since I have called the police's actions into question without offering any narrative, your claim is factually false. Moreover, it assumes a rather specific narrative -that these police shoot black men with swords on sight. It is dishonest to pretend that is the unwritten narrative.


Who is "Springs"? The guy was Darrien Hunt and your own cited autopsy plus and eyewitteness supports that he threatened the cops with his sword after refusing to put it down, then he ran with what he reinforced the cops to believe was a deadly weapon toward other people.
He "jabbed" the sword towards them. Did it come close or not? And you don't know he was running towards other people.
Shooting him was far more justified than would have been letting him run. The only reasonable alternative would have been disabling him with a less deadly weapon, all of which are less reliable and accurate in that situation with a fleeing suspect who given his age and seeming fitness would have been much faster than them.
More assumptions and unsubstantiated claims on your part.


No, its a recognition that the police are only human and they didn't have your 20/20 hindsight of knowing it was fake only because you've been told that, a fact you would not have had you been in the situation.
Again with the alleged mind-reading. You have no clue what I could have known or what they could have known. It is either the height of arrogance or the depths of intellectual dishonesty to make such claims.
IT is an only an "indictment" if you are a egomaniacal narcissist that cannot imagine the psychological reality of the situation the cops were in and the split-second decision they needed to make about a man who went out of his way to reinforce the possibility that the sword was real and he was a threat. By the time they shot him, his actions and words greatly favored the sword being real and he being a mentally unstable threat.
Your response is based on a number of unsubstantiated assumptions about reality. First, there is no evidence you are an infallible (or even reasonable) arbiter of other people's psychological states. Second, there is no evidence anyone had to make a split-second decision about anything. Third, you confuse your opinion about the victim's "going out of his way..." with fact. Fourth, you assume the only course of reasonable action was to shoot him multiple times (4 times in the back).

My defense is not reactionary, it is reasoned and unbiased, something you should try.
Your arguments are based on mind-reading and confusions of fact with fiction which makes them consistent inconsistent with reasoned and unbiased analysis.

Your condemnation of the cops is what is based purely on ideology and emotion, without a shred of thought to how all the facts logically cohere together and with the possible accounts.
Thank you for providing more evidence on the reactionary nature of your responses. You are arguing against a straw man. I think the police acted prematurely. From the accounts, no one was in immediate danger even if the sword was real.
 
They did not respond with deadly force (they could have done a better job, though).

I haven't seen this addressed, though I may have missed it, but this is absolute nonsense. If you are firing a handgun at a fleeing target, you are using deadly force, the end. If the two officers *said* they weren't using deadly force, then they should be immediately fired, and likely belong in jail. At the very best, you're making a case for why the cop who shot Hunt is an incompetent shot (and no, it wouldn't be a shot to the head - you're supposed to aim for center mass)
 
Foot, meet bullet.

"or a realistic perception of a threat"--which is exactly what I'm saying!
So you are saying that trained police officers should not be able to discern when someone is a real threat? Someone in a role playing costume, holding a toy sword and amiably chatting with police should not be a realistic perception of a threat, even if the wielder is a black man.

Wearing a cosplay costume doesn't give you a free pass to swing a sword at someone. The key factor is the attack, not his clothing or skin color.
 
Whatever happened to non-lethal measures?

Why have those seemed to be abandoned and "shoot to kill first" replaced them?

The cops have never had a non-lethal response to a lethal threat.

All the non-lethal options are mean to replace the nightstick as a compliance device--something the cops use when someone will not obey orders but poses no substantial threat. Occasionally you see situations where cops are able to use a taser on someone with a melee-only weapon but only when backed up by another officer with a gun.
 
If he was running in the direction of other people then the police were firing in the direction of other people. QED

You just flunked geometry 101. What if he's running at an angle?

Again I ask, why do so many cops seem to leap right to shooting people without exhausting non-lethal ways of apprehension first?

Again I ask why so many of you on the left have no understanding of what options the police actually have?
 
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