White Fragility author Robin DiAngelo was paid 70 percent more than a black woman for the same job

[laughing dog]

Those with names associated with a lack of education are considered inferior workers.

The only reason those names are associated with a lack of education is that they sound "black". So the only reason is based on race. Thinking an applicant is less educated because of their imagined race is a textbook example of racism.

But once again, you prove my point - you are willing to say anything to deny racism.

Disparate impact does not prove discrimination.

That is not relevant here at all. Moreover, you repeat that koan as if it is informative. It is not. Statistical research never proves a positive. It simply provides evidence consistent with a hypothesis.

Names are associated with educational achievement

Yes, by bigots and racists. However, in as Emily Lake pointed out, in the study, the CV/resumes were identical in every respect but name.

The experiment needs to be redone with names of the same educational attainment to figure out which effect is really going on--but that's almost certainly not going to happen these days, people aren't interested in testing whether it really is racism.

First, your response indicates a deep ignorance of the study in question (see above). Second, every response of yours simply provides more evidence that you will say anything to discredit social science research results.

 

[laughing dog]

Exactly, although I'm not sure where you'll find high status black names.

Your responses are the gifts that keep on giving.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's not "perfectly acceptable", but in the real world where they have to prune very aggressively it's going to happen.

...

No--try a fair comparison, low-status black names with low-status white names.

Can you provide an example of "low-status black names" versus "high-status black names"?

The names actually used in the study are on page 18 of this PDF. Are all of those "low status black names" versus "high status white names"? Read the methodology. They used both high-quality and low-quality resumes, with a variety of skill levels and extra-curricular activities. The last names were not racially varied, only the first names.
https://cos.gatech.edu/facultyres/Diversity_Studies/Bertrand_LakishaJamal.pdf

It's also a bit telling that minority applicants who "whiten" their resumes get more call-backs than those whose resumes include information that signals race, even if they are prestigious and advantageous pieces of information like highly competitive scholarships, activity in diversity-related organizations, or leadership roles in minority programs.
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

 

[J842P]

Disparate impact does not prove discrimination.

Names are associated with educational achievement and educational achievement is associated with value in the workplace.

The experiment needs to be redone with names of the same educational attainment to figure out which effect is really going on--but that's almost certainly not going to happen these days, people aren't interested in testing whether it really is racism.

What are you talking about here? The study LITERALLY had the exact same resume/CV! IDENTICAL. The only difference was the name.

Are you suggesting that the experiment needs to be redone with only white-sounding names, to see if the association of "black = inferior worker" assumption exists?

I'm baffled that you can insist that making negative assumptions about someone based on the color of their skin and nothing else is not racism.

At this point, I've got to ask what the heck you think constitutes racism at all?

Again, I think the point that LP is making is that there are names associated with low socioeconomic status. This exists in the white community and the black community, and indeed, I suspect it exists in all communities.

Names always send signals about socioeconomic status.

Just consider white, male names. People will have different ideas about someone named Cletus than they do about someone named Conner.

For black male names, people might have different stereotypes about a Reginald Jackson versus a DaeShawn Jackson.


Here's an article on this very issue in this brand of research, although, it's sort of coming at it from the opposite direction:
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/...closely-at-connections-between-names-and-race

Because, as in all of these types of research, results are rarely reproducible and there are studies that purport to show no effect.

 

[ruby sparks]

Disparate impact does not prove discrimination.

Names are associated with educational achievement and educational achievement is associated with value in the workplace.

The experiment needs to be redone with names of the same educational attainment to figure out which effect is really going on--but that's almost certainly not going to happen these days, people aren't interested in testing whether it really is racism.

What are you talking about here? The study LITERALLY had the exact same resume/CV! IDENTICAL. The only difference was the name.

Are you suggesting that the experiment needs to be redone with only white-sounding names, to see if the association of "black = inferior worker" assumption exists?

I'm baffled that you can insist that making negative assumptions about someone based on the color of their skin and nothing else is not racism.

At this point, I've got to ask what the heck you think constitutes racism at all?

Again, I think the point that LP is making is that there are names associated with low socioeconomic status. This exists in the white community and the black community, and indeed, I suspect it exists in all communities.

Names always send signals about socioeconomic status.

Just consider white, male names. People will have different ideas about someone named Cletus than they do about someone named Conner.

For black male names, people might have different stereotypes about a Reginald Jackson versus a DaeShawn Jackson.


Here's an article on this very issue in this brand of research, although, it's sort of coming at it from the opposite direction:
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/...closely-at-connections-between-names-and-race

Because, as in all of these types of research, results are rarely reproducible and there are studies that purport to show no effect.

Personally, I accept he has a potential point, in this particular case, at this particular time.....etc.

Even then, I'm not sure it's necessarily quite as strong a point as he thinks it is.

 

[J842P]

To try to be generous and to steel-man Loren's argument, you might argue that the names used signal low socioeconomic status. So, maybe the ideal experiment could be something like stereotypically low socioeconomic status white names (e.g. Bubba, Tami-Lynn, etc etc) vs high socioeconomic status white names, vs low socioeconomic status black names, and high socioeconomic status black names (perhaps, African names?). Then, you could look at the relative difference in effect between high-low white names and high-low black names.

I would be surprised if even then you wouldn't see a "black name" effect. Perhaps it would be lower, but maybe, it would be higher.

My point was that LP will make up any excuse to reject evidence from social science research. He has not presented one iota of evidence to support your "generous" interpretation that the "white sounding" names implied high education status.

And, of course, there is basic RACIST premise that black sounding names mean a candidate is inferior.



Fascinatingly, in another thread, he rejects any possible explanation to aver that the possible BIPOC exemption offered by Cornell University is due to racism.

I understand your point.

 

[J842P]

It's not "perfectly acceptable", but in the real world where they have to prune very aggressively it's going to happen.

...

No--try a fair comparison, low-status black names with low-status white names.

Can you provide an example of "low-status black names" versus "high-status black names"?

The names actually used in the study are on page 18 of this PDF. Are all of those "low status black names" versus "high status white names"? Read the methodology. They used both high-quality and low-quality resumes, with a variety of skill levels and extra-curricular activities. The last names were not racially varied, only the first names.
https://cos.gatech.edu/facultyres/Diversity_Studies/Bertrand_LakishaJamal.pdf

It's also a bit telling that minority applicants who "whiten" their resumes get more call-backs than those whose resumes include information that signals race, even if they are prestigious and advantageous pieces of information like highly competitive scholarships, activity in diversity-related organizations, or leadership roles in minority programs.
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

Loren's point is literally made by the authors, in the section Potential Confounds B on page 1007.

 

[ruby sparks]

These types of studies do not exist in a vacuum. There are others that suggest that once employed, and for a variety of reasons, a black employee will typically come under more scrutiny, and that shortcomings are thus comparatively more readily noticed, leading to more time spent unemployed, leading to those reading subsequent resumes thinking blacks don't work as hard. Etc. There are several, interacting factors in such things.

And that's setting aside wider historic factors which affect things like socio-economic status and education and indeed culture in the first place.

In a big nutshell, the current non-existence of at least some remnant systemic/institutional/embedded racism in somewhere like the USA, given its recent very dubious and difficult racial history, is, imo, basically implausible (and contrary to a great deal of evidence gathered over time) except to a persistent racism denialist. And I think I might deign to speak on behalf of the majority here when I say that I am justly if perversely proud that we have such a world-class example here on the forum. It has certainly enlightened me, as someone who would quite honestly not previously have been sure that such people actually existed outside of caricatures and humour.

 

[Jarhyn]

These types of studies do not exist in a vacuum. There are others that suggest that once employed, and for a variety of reasons, a black employee will typically come under more scrutiny, and that shortcomings are thus comparatively more readily noticed, leading to more time spent unemployed, leading to those reading subsequent resumes thinking blacks don't work as hard. Etc.

And that's setting aside wider historic factors which affect things like socio-economic status and education and indeed culture in the first place.

The non-existence of at least some remnant systemic/institutional racism in somewhere like the USA, given its recent very dubious racial history, is, imo, basically implausible.

Exactly. And at best lauren makes an excellent arguement as to why it should be illegal for a reviewer to access names of applicants. For anything.

 

[laughing dog]

It's not "perfectly acceptable", but in the real world where they have to prune very aggressively it's going to happen.

...

No--try a fair comparison, low-status black names with low-status white names.

Can you provide an example of "low-status black names" versus "high-status black names"?

The names actually used in the study are on page 18 of this PDF. Are all of those "low status black names" versus "high status white names"? Read the methodology. They used both high-quality and low-quality resumes, with a variety of skill levels and extra-curricular activities. The last names were not racially varied, only the first names.
https://cos.gatech.edu/facultyres/Diversity_Studies/Bertrand_LakishaJamal.pdf

It's also a bit telling that minority applicants who "whiten" their resumes get more call-backs than those whose resumes include information that signals race, even if they are prestigious and advantageous pieces of information like highly competitive scholarships, activity in diversity-related organizations, or leadership roles in minority programs.
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

Loren's point is literally made by the authors, in the section Potential Confounds B on page 1007.

On the same page later in the same paragraph, they write "While plausible, we feel some of our earlier results are hard to reconcile with that interpretation".

 

[J842P]

Loren's point is literally made by the authors, in the section Potential Confounds B on page 1007.

On the same page later in the same paragraph, they write "While plausible, we feel some of our earlier results are hard to reconcile with that interpretation".

Yes, but it isn't some crazy, nonsensical, made-up point.

 

[laughing dog]

Loren's point is literally made by the authors, in the section Potential Confounds B on page 1007.

On the same page later in the same paragraph, they write "While plausible, we feel some of our earlier results are hard to reconcile with that interpretation".

Yes, but it isn't some crazy, nonsensical, made-up point.

In academic papers, especially in the elite journals (like the American Economic Review), authors will point out possible gaps or directions for future research. However, when someone writes "While plausible but we feel some of our earlier results are hard to reconcile with that interpretation", it is a polite way of saying "No way".

 

[J842P]

Yes, but it isn't some crazy, nonsensical, made-up point.

In academic papers, especially in the elite journals (like the American Economic Review), authors will point out possible gaps or directions for future research. However, when someone writes "While plausible but we feel some of our earlier results are hard to reconcile with that interpretation", it is a polite way of saying "No way".

Yes, I'm familiar with academic papers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly, although I'm not sure where you'll find high status black names.

Your responses are the gifts that keep on giving.

Got some?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again, I think the point that LP is making is that there are names associated with low socioeconomic status. This exists in the white community and the black community, and indeed, I suspect it exists in all communities.

Names always send signals about socioeconomic status.

Just consider white, male names. People will have different ideas about someone named Cletus than they do about someone named Conner.

For black male names, people might have different stereotypes about a Reginald Jackson versus a DaeShawn Jackson.

At least somebody gets it!

The relationship I have seen measured is between black names and low education, but low education goes along with low socioeconomic status.

(And if I saw "Reginald" my first thought would be foreign rather than black.)

That article you linked does a pretty good job of making my point:

For example, in his study, the name most-commonly and correctly judged as a black-sounding name was “DaShawn.” This name was also most-commonly given by black mothers with a high school degree or less. Names most-commonly given by black mothers with a college education, such as “Jalen,” were much less likely to be associated as a black-sounding name.

When you dig into the "evidence" of discrimination it's amazing how often you find socioeconomic factors unrelated to race involved--and how rarely you see any attempt to control for these. If there's good research why isn't it promoted instead of the crap?

 

[Emily Lake]

Just to be clear Loren...

If you were to see a resume for a Harvard graduate with top marks, excellent internship experience, and academic awards... You think it would be justifiable and acceptable to think that if the name at the top were "Darnell" they must be a poorer worker than if the name at the top were "David"?

Where does "Deborah" fall in your spectrum of guessing whether a person is "associated" with being an inferior employee on the basis of their name alone?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just to be clear Loren...

If you were to see a resume for a Harvard graduate with top marks, excellent internship experience, and academic awards... You think it would be justifiable and acceptable to think that if the name at the top were "Darnell" they must be a poorer worker than if the name at the top were "David"?

Where does "Deborah" fall in your spectrum of guessing whether a person is "associated" with being an inferior employee on the basis of their name alone?

But that's not the sort of resume they're talking about.

 

[laughing dog]

Again, I think the point that LP is making is that there are names associated with low socioeconomic status. This exists in the white community and the black community, and indeed, I suspect it exists in all communities.

Names always send signals about socioeconomic status.

Just consider white, male names. People will have different ideas about someone named Cletus than they do about someone named Conner.

For black male names, people might have different stereotypes about a Reginald Jackson versus a DaeShawn Jackson.

At least somebody gets it!

The relationship I have seen measured is between black names and low education, but low education goes along with low socioeconomic status.

(And if I saw "Reginald" my first thought would be foreign rather than black.)

That article you linked does a pretty good job of making my point:

For example, in his study, the name most-commonly and correctly judged as a black-sounding name was “DaShawn.” This name was also most-commonly given by black mothers with a high school degree or less. Names most-commonly given by black mothers with a college education, such as “Jalen,” were much less likely to be associated as a black-sounding name.

When you dig into the "evidence" of discrimination it's amazing how often you find socioeconomic factors unrelated to race involved--and how rarely you see any attempt to control for these. If there's good research why isn't it promoted instead of the crap?

That snippet you quoted has nothing whatsoever to the actual topic. The CV paper is not about the mothers or their education. The CVs had the education and work experience of the applicant. So that snippet has nothing whatsoever to do with discussion or your racist-based bogus criticism of the CV research.

But, once again, it provides more evidence that you will say anything to discredit social science research that disagrees with your beliefs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

At least somebody gets it!

The relationship I have seen measured is between black names and low education, but low education goes along with low socioeconomic status.

(And if I saw "Reginald" my first thought would be foreign rather than black.)

That article you linked does a pretty good job of making my point:



When you dig into the "evidence" of discrimination it's amazing how often you find socioeconomic factors unrelated to race involved--and how rarely you see any attempt to control for these. If there's good research why isn't it promoted instead of the crap?

That snippet you quoted has nothing whatsoever to the actual topic. The CV paper is not about the mothers or their education. The CVs had the education and work experience of the applicant. So that snippet has nothing whatsoever to do with discussion or your racist-based bogus criticism of the CV research.

But, once again, it provides more evidence that you will say anything to discredit social science research that disagrees with your beliefs.

People will still have their response to the name even when it disagrees with the resume.

 

[laughing dog]

At least somebody gets it!

The relationship I have seen measured is between black names and low education, but low education goes along with low socioeconomic status.

(And if I saw "Reginald" my first thought would be foreign rather than black.)

That article you linked does a pretty good job of making my point:



When you dig into the "evidence" of discrimination it's amazing how often you find socioeconomic factors unrelated to race involved--and how rarely you see any attempt to control for these. If there's good research why isn't it promoted instead of the crap?

That snippet you quoted has nothing whatsoever to the actual topic. The CV paper is not about the mothers or their education. The CVs had the education and work experience of the applicant. So that snippet has nothing whatsoever to do with discussion or your racist-based bogus criticism of the CV research.

But, once again, it provides more evidence that you will say anything to discredit social science research that disagrees with your beliefs.

People will still have their response to the name even when it disagrees with the resume.

With every response provides more evidence you will say anything to discredit social science research that comes up with conclusions that disagree with your beliefs.