US student loans grotesquely high

[Jarhyn]

Why?

Government should be aiding what helps society--and that's people in positions for which there is enough demand.

No, it is educated people with honed talents in all areas. The market is not the only measure of social value.

I will say this much: if I wasn't strictly limited in how much education I could have sought, I wouldn't have stopped getting educated.

But, I ran out of funding after getting my degree. I can go no further not because of inability or lack of desire but rather lack of funding.

I think more that people will seek TWO educational goals in general, and their order of precedence is unimportant: people will seek for a degree that will get them paid, and people will seek for a degree that will get them knowledge they seek personally. Currently, the system is set up to best reward ONLY the minimum education required for professional growth ABSENT personal growth.

It is, however, personal interest which drives innovation and good societal order. Personally edifying education should not merely be in the purview of the wealthy

 

[lpetrich]

Allowing myself some anthropomorphism, I agree with right-wingers that facts don't care about anybody's feelings.

But facts don't care about right-wingers' feelings either, like when they get outraged at people majoring in things that can't get them employment.

Fast Facts: Most popular majors (37)

Question:

What are the most popular majors for postsecondary students?

Response:

Of the 1,956,000 bachelor’s degrees conferred in 2016–17, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (381,000), health professions and related programs (238,000), social sciences and history (159,000), psychology (117,000), biological and biomedical sciences (117,000), engineering (116,000), communication, journalism, and related programs (94,000), and visual and performing arts (91,000). At the master’s degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (187,000), education (146,000), and health professions and related programs (119,000). At the doctor’s degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of health professions and related programs (77,700), legal professions and studies (35,100), education (12,700), engineering (10,400), biological and biomedical sciences (8,100), psychology (6,700), and physical sciences and science technologies (6,000).

Right-wingers ought to weep tears of joy at the sight of all these students who have virtuous majors like business. But I'm sure that they will whine about what victims they are about whatever issue that they can invoke to make themselves seem like victims.

 

[lpetrich]

Nice to see this issue moving forward.
Michael Stratford on Twitter: "New - Biden completely rejects Schumer/Warren proposal to cancel $50K of student loan debt per borrower ..." / Twitter

New - Biden completely rejects Schumer/Warren proposal to cancel $50K of student loan debt per borrower:

“I will not make that happen."

Says he doesn't want to forgive debts of borrowers from elite schools -- and money would be better spent on early childhood education.

“I’m prepared to write off $10,000 debt, but not 50 because I don’t think I have the authority to do it by signing” an executive order, Biden says.

He pitches 0% interest on student loans (which he’s already done thru Sept.) & expanding public service loan forgiveness.

Biden didn't make clear whether that "write off" of $10K would be via executive action or legislation.

White House aides previously pitched it as a request to Congress, though earlier this month said for first time they were considering exec action.

Schumer, White House at odds over how to cancel student loan debt - POLITICO

Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and the White House are divided over how to move forward in the coming months on a key progressive priority: canceling large swaths of the outstanding $1.5 trillion of federal student loan debt.

The conflict forecasts a looming fight over student loan forgiveness that could be a major test of how far progressives can push President Joe Biden, who has sought to cast himself as a bipartisan dealmaker and unifier.

Biden advisers have repeatedly said they prefer to seek congressional approval to forgive at least $10,000 of debt per borrower, a campaign promise. But Schumer is ramping up efforts to convince the White House to move more quickly and cancel $50,000 of student loan debt per borrower “with the flick of a pen” through executive action.

 

[lpetrich]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "1. Who cares what school someone went to? ..." / Twitter
Evidently referring to President Biden's mention of elite schools.

1. Who cares what school someone went to? Entire generations of working class kids were encouraged to go into more debt under the guise of elitism. This is wrong.

2. Nowhere does it say we must trade-off early childhood education for student loan forgiveness. We can have both.

The case against student loan forgiveness is looking shakier by the day.

We’ve got the *Senate Majority Leader* on board to forgive $50k. Biden’s holding back, but many of the arguments against it just don’t hold water on close inspection.

We can and should do it. Keep pushing!

Most Black voters support eliminating student loan debt, new survey finds - "A survey of registered Black voters shows 40 percent would consider staying home for the next election if there’s no action on student loan debt."
That aspect of voting is not discussed as much as it ought to be. For many people, the alternative to voting for one's preferred party's candidate is not voting for the other party's candidate. It's not voting at all.

A group of Democratic legislators — including Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., and Reps. Ayanna Pressley, D-Mass., Alma Adams, D-N.C., Mondaire Jones, D-N.Y., and Ilhan Omar, D-Minn. — have proposed canceling $50,000 in student loan debt without any tax liability for borrowers.

Ayanna Pressley on Twitter: "“A survey of registered Black voters shows 40 percent would consider staying home for the next election if there’s no action on student loan debt.”

#CancelStudentDebt. All of it. (link)" / Twitter
then
Mondaire Jones on Twitter: "Student debt forgiveness is a matter of racial justice. It’s no wonder that if @potus declines to use his executive authority to solve this unprecedented crisis, many of the people who got him elected won’t turn out to vote in 2022. #CancelStudentDebt" / Twitter

 

[lpetrich]

Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley on Twitter: "Yes, @POTUS does have the authority to #CancelStudentDebt with the stroke of a pen.

He can and must use it. The people deserve nothing less." / Twitter

AOC explains how to lobby one's Congressmember. She talks about one's Rep, but one can also lobby one's state's two Senators.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Today is a great day to call your representative and ask what their stance on student loan forgiveness is! ..." / Twitter

Today is a great day to call your representative and ask what their stance on student loan forgiveness is!

And if you know & appreciate your rep’s stance on this or other issues, it’s helpful to call and thank them.

You can find your rep’s info here: https://house.gov/representative

The reason it’s helpful to call YOUR rep even when they are doing the right thing is because reps are under a TON of pressure all the time. Sometimes it’s political pressure to change a stance, but sometimes it’s also time pressure vs other leg and you have to choose priorities. If you feel your rep is doing the right thing, calling to thank them shows their district notices & appreciates their stance.

Knowing constituents are watching & care creates positive pressure to stay strong. When you don’t think your constituents care much, it’s easier to cave. (Care much about a given issue, that is)

Alternatively, if your rep sounds on the fence or hasn’t defined their stance on an issue yet, calls from constituents really can make a difference in nudging them to come out on an issue. Puts it higher on the priority list.

It can feel a little intimidating to call your rep’s office the 1st time, but it’s totally fine. The line literally exists for you (our constituents) to call us!

Some tips: Call YOUR rep! Say what neighborhood you’re from if you’d like & be kind! Staffers don’t deserve abuse.

You can be clear about your question: “Does Rep A support full student loan forgiveness?” (You can insert any detail/number here)

Or “what’s Rep B’s stance on student loans? I can’t seem to find it.”

Or “I want to thank Rep C for supporting forgiveness. It means a lot to me.”

Lastly, if you’re comfortable w including your personal story it helps a LOT.

The details of your story can illuminate policy gaps & help Reps communicate to their colleagues.

Representatives are human beings! Stories are persuasive &we can use your stories to convince others.

 

[lpetrich]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Very wealthy people already have a student loan forgiveness program. It’s called their parents. ..." / Twitter
Yes, children of rich people receive huge handouts from their parents. If receiving handouts creates a moral hazard, then receiving big handouts from one's parents creates a super big one.

Very wealthy people already have a student loan forgiveness program. It’s called their parents.

The idea that millionaires and billionaires are willingly letting their kids drown in federal student loans & that’s why we can’t go big on forgiveness is about as silly as it sounds.

Average student loan debt in the US is ~$30k (LOTS have more)

Many won’t fully feel $10k in forgiveness until after a Biden presidency is over, when they’ve spent 10 years paying off the other $20k+

Dems should be championing policy that people can feel ASAP. We need to go big.

Nick Pappas on Twitter: "@AOC I think the point is more that people who go to college are significantly more likely to end up millionaires than those who don’t. College/non-college is a key indicator of economic status and that’s just not debatable." / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "@NickAPappas I hear ya. What gets left out in this convo is the massive racial wealth gap in the US.

White high school dropouts are on avg wealthier than Black + Latino college grads. Education doesn’t close that economic gap & loans impact higher % of Black borrowers (link)" / Twitter
noting
White high school dropouts are wealthier than black or Latino college graduates - Vox

 

[Derec]

1. Who cares what school someone went to?

People who go into six figure debts for a BA degree do. And they are now expecting us taxpayers to pay for their four year adventure at Bryn Mawr et al.

Example of people running up their loans and now refusing to pay:
Meet the student loan borrowers refusing to pay their debt, hoping Biden will forgive it

Entire generations of working class kids were encouraged to go into more debt under the guise of elitism. This is wrong.

Who exactly was encouraging "working class kids" to go into unnecessary debt by going to expensive private liberal arts colleges?

2. Nowhere does it say we must trade-off early childhood education for student loan forgiveness. We can have both.

Money printer go brrr?

Most Black voters support eliminating student loan debt, new survey finds - "A survey of registered Black voters shows 40 percent would consider staying home for the next election if there’s no action on student loan debt."
That aspect of voting is not discussed as much as it ought to be. For many people, the alternative to voting for one's preferred party's candidate is not voting for the other party's candidate. It's not voting at all.

So a bad policy should be adopted because 40% of black voters support it? 40% of blacks is ~5-6% of the population.

A group of Democratic legislators — including Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., and Reps. Ayanna Pressley, D-Mass., Alma Adams, D-N.C., Mondaire Jones, D-N.Y., and Ilhan Omar, D-Minn. — have proposed canceling $50,000 in student loan debt without any tax liability for borrowers.

Chuck Schumer surprises me a little. He is the odd man out in that rogues gallery.

#CancelStudentDebt. All of it. (link)" / Twitter[/url]

All of it?
Even for somebody taking out six figure loans for a degree in art history (with a minor in underwater basketweaving) at Swarthmore?
Even for a pediatric thoracic surgery fellow who will be making $500k a year soon?
What happened to the $50k cap?

then
Mondaire Jones on Twitter: "Student debt forgiveness is a matter of racial justice. It’s no wonder that if @potus declines to use his executive authority to solve this unprecedented crisis, many of the people who got him elected won’t turn out to vote in 2022. #CancelStudentDebt" / Twitter

Racial justice? How exactly is it "justice"? It may be a good or bad policy, but it is not about "justice". And it should not be a racial issue. Unfortunately, these days Dems are viewing everything through the lens of race.

 

[Derec]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Very wealthy people already have a student loan forgiveness program. It’s called their parents. ..." / Twitter
Yes, children of rich people receive huge handouts from their parents. If receiving handouts creates a moral hazard, then receiving big handouts from one's parents creates a super big one.

I have an idea. Let's just take all the money from rich people so they can't spend it on their children and distribute it evenly.

Average student loan debt in the US is ~$30k (LOTS have more)

And LOTS[sic] have less. That's how averages work.
Loans are not the only source of government financial aid for students. There are federal grants, state scholarships, etc.
And one can save over $100,000 in tuition by going to a state university (there are very good state schools!) instead of an expensive private one.

Many won’t fully feel $10k in forgiveness until after a Biden presidency is over, when they’ve spent 10 years paying off the other $20k+

That's not how loans work. Let's say you owe $30k at 5%. If $10k is forgiven, your principal is $20k now and the interest is computed based on it rather than the old amount. Instant savings!

Dems should be championing policy that people can feel ASAP. We need to go big.

Bigger is not necessarily better.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "@NickAPappas I hear ya. What gets left out in this convo is the massive racial wealth gap in the US.

Again the obsession with race in a topic that has nothing to do with it.
One could form suspicions that the supposed "student loan forgiveness" is just backdoor reparations.

White high school dropouts are on avg wealthier than Black + Latino college grads.

Note that that Vox number is net worth, not income.
Black and Latino college grads certainly have a lot more income than white high school dropouts.
So why is the reverse true for wealth (even if very, very slightly judging from that chart)?
I doubt it is wealth passed down form parents because parents of those dropping out of high school are rarely well off.
I think it has to do with conspicuous consumption. For all the talk how little wealth black people own I see a huge number of black people around here driving Beamers, Jags and Mercs. Maybe it's due to popularity of hip hop and how much hip hop relies of flaunting supposed wealth in the music videos (even if the mansions, cars etc. are rented specifically for the video shoot). Real talk.

Education doesn’t close that economic gap & loans impact higher % of Black borrowers (link)" / Twitter[/url]

Black students have the same access to Pell Grants, state scholarships as white ones but in addition to that they have access to race-based scholarships . Why do they need more loans? Are black students more likely to go to fancy, expensive private universities and to shun state schools? Is it because they have preferential access to top (and more expensive) schools even with mediocre grades/SATs due to racial preferences? If you are black and 3.8/1450 you may get into Harvard and take out huge loans to go there. A white student with same stats will not even get a second look and will settle for University of Massachusetts (for example) and have to take far less in loans.

 

[southernhybrid]

Biden has said that he doesn't support the 50K loan forgiveness. Why not simply lower the interest rates on student loans to zero or at least tie them into the fed rate, which is close to zero? I don't support loan forgiveness, other than on a case by case basis, due to special circumstances. What do you teach a person when they take on a responsibility and then when it becomes a burden, you treat them like a child and tell them they are no longer responsible for that commitment?

It's also not fair to those who never had the opportunity to go to school and worked hard all their lives in the lower paying fields. Sorry, I just don't see the fairness in giving 50K to all students who made the mistake of taking out these loans. It's also not fair to all of those who did pay back their loans, but I do think it's fair to do away with or drastically lower the interest rates on these loans. That way, the loans would be paid down at in a decent amount of time, or the loan payment could be smaller and paid back over a longer period of time.

There are people in this country who need help a lot more than college grads who made poor decisions in regards to loans. I do agree that in many cases, loans should be wiped out when one declares bankruptcy. It's insane that some older adults are having their SS money garnished to help pay back student loans that they may have taken out when they were middle aged. It's blanket forgiveness that I oppose.

That's just my opinion. I'd rather see us help people out on an individual basis, like those who need help with food, housing and medical care.

The government can subsidize tuition and find ways to make college more affordable. That would be a good use of taxpayer dollars. I also think that loan forgiveness can be considered in exchange for some type of public service, but simply giving money away because someone made a poor decision in regards to school loans isn't something supported by the majority. Just sayin'.

 

[Politesse]

Biden has said that he doesn't support the 50K loan forgiveness. Why not simply lower the interest rates on student loans to zero or at least tie them into the fed rate, which is close to zero? I don't support loan forgiveness, other than on a case by case basis, due to special circumstances. What do you teach a person when they take on a responsibility and then when it becomes a burden, you treat them like a child and tell them they are no longer responsible for that commitment?

It's also not fair to those who never had the opportunity to go to school and worked hard all their lives in the lower paying fields. Sorry, I just don't see the fairness in giving 50K to all students who made the mistake of taking out these loans. It's also not fair to all of those who did pay back their loans, but I do think it's fair to do away with or drastically lower the interest rates on these loans. That way, the loans would be paid down at in a decent amount of time, or the loan payment could be smaller and paid back over a longer period of time.

There are people in this country who need help a lot more than college grads who made poor decisions in regards to loans. I do agree that in many cases, loans should be wiped out when one declares bankruptcy. It's insane that some older adults are having their SS money garnished to help pay back student loans that they may have taken out when they were middle aged. It's blanket forgiveness that I oppose.

That's just my opinion. I'd rather see us help people out on an individual basis, like those who need help with food, housing and medical care.

The government can subsidize tuition and find ways to make college more affordable. That would be a good use of taxpayer dollars. I also think that loan forgiveness can be considered in exchange for some type of public service, but simply giving money away because someone made a poor decision in regards to school loans isn't something supported by the majority. Just sayin'.

Do you believe that we should never advance socially, since that would be "unfair" to those who suffered through the previous regime? I do not understand the argument that because you were abused by the higher education system, that more people should also be abused in the name of fairness. The superstrate industry in federal student loans sketchy, fraudulent, and exploitative to its core, and while loan forgiveness does not solve that problem by itself, it would solve an immediate crisis. Correcting previous inequities does not create more inequity, it makes amends for that past.

Either that, or start paying people with professional degrees salaries commensurate with what is being extracted from them. At present, our college and loan system is designed to effectively discourage most citizens from attempting a degree, and mock/abuse them if they try. If this persists, we will continue to falter and fall behind as a whole nation, while competing nations more willing to invest in education become the new leaders of science, technology, and humanities. Indeed, this is already happening. People are more likely to talk about the former merits of an American education than the current merits, internationally. Our sixth largest industry by revenue and largest industry by employment is becoming a global laughingstock. Where will this end for us?

We say that epidemiology is too esoteric a topic for secondary education, then make it impossible for most people to go to college without going broke. Then we wonder why most of the American public doesn't have the sense to mask up in a pandemic. Well, it ain't really that much of a mystery.

"Case by case" effectively means "mostly for whites" in most states, so I definitely don't think leaving those kinds of decision in the hands of local college districts or third party loan consolidators is a good idea.

I support canceling interest on student loans. Biden does not.

 

[ronburgundy]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "1. Who cares what school someone went to? ..." / Twitter
Evidently referring to President Biden's mention of elite schools.

1. Who cares what school someone went to? Entire generations of working class kids were encouraged to go into more debt under the guise of elitism. This is wrong.

Sounds like AOC is basically arguing that college education has no real value and is just a form of elitism. Sound pretty right-wing and anti-thetical to the very core liberal philosophy. Kids were encouraged to go to college. They were not encouraged to go to the most expensive private colleges. If we were to institute free college, it would and should only apply to public universities and not mean we hand people a blank check to give to any private institution they want. So, how does it make sense to pay the full cost of loan to private schools?

Also, many students worked their way through school, including work-study programs to reduce their loans, while others just took out more loans, so they could spend all free time partying. Students make choices that impact how much loan debt they acquired. How is that not a reasonable factor to consider?

BTW, there are many people who use student loans for completely unnecessary things unrelated to school. If you get a subsidized loan, it's basically free money that doesn't start costing you anything in interest until 6 months after you graduate. I took out a 5k student loan in grad school and stuck it in a CD where I earned interest. Even when it started accruing interest, I locked in at a low rate that was lower than the CD interest I was getting, so I just left it in there until my CD matured and interest rates were lower. A friend use his loan to buy a Harley, and another invested in stocks and the returns he was getting outpaced interest, so he had no reason to pay it off even though he could. Had our loans been forgiven, that's just free money we got that we didn't actually need and didn't use for education.

We didn't event that tactic, which is related to another stupid comment by AOC:

"The idea that millionaires and billionaires are willingly letting their kids drown in federal student loans & that’s why we can’t go big on forgiveness is about as silly as it sounds."

Sure, rich kid's are not "drowning" in debt, but they do have debts because sometimes the things they (or their rich parents) are doing with the $ have bigger returns than the loan interest, so it is actually stupid to pay off the loan even if you can afford to. The kind of mindless blanket "everyone get all student loans expunged" approach AOC wants will mean taking tax payer dollars and giving billions to people who do not need it. Which in turn guarantees less money for other forms of help for those that do need it, b/c despite AOC's bad math, fiscal spending is a zero sum game.

From what I have seen so far, Biden is taking the far more rational and ethical approach that will optimize help to those that need it.

 

[Jarhyn]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "1. Who cares what school someone went to? ..." / Twitter
Evidently referring to President Biden's mention of elite schools.

1. Who cares what school someone went to? Entire generations of working class kids were encouraged to go into more debt under the guise of elitism. This is wrong.

Sounds like AOC is basically arguing that college education has no real value and is just a form of elitism. Sound pretty right-wing and anti-thetical to the very core liberal philosophy. Kids were encouraged to go to college. They were not encouraged to go to the most expensive private colleges. If we were to institute free college, it would and should only apply to public universities and not mean we hand people a blank check to give to any private institution they want. So, how does it make sense to pay the full cost of loan to private schools?

Also, many students worked their way through school, including work-study programs to reduce their loans, while others just took out more loans, so they could spend all free time partying. Students make choices that impact how much loan debt they acquired. How is that not a reasonable factor to consider?

BTW, there are many people who use student loans for completely unnecessary things unrelated to school. If you get a subsidized loan, it's basically free money that doesn't start costing you anything in interest until 6 months after you graduate. I took out a 5k student loan in grad school and stuck it in a CD where I earned interest. Even when it started accruing interest, I locked in at a low rate that was lower than the CD interest I was getting, so I just left it in there until my CD matured and interest rates were lower. A friend use his loan to buy a Harley, and another invested in stocks and the returns he was getting outpaced interest, so he had no reason to pay it off even though he could. Had our loans been forgiven, that's just free money we got that we didn't actually need and didn't use for education.

We didn't event that tactic, which is related to another stupid comment by AOC:

"The idea that millionaires and billionaires are willingly letting their kids drown in federal student loans & that’s why we can’t go big on forgiveness is about as silly as it sounds."

Sure, rich kid's are not "drowning" in debt, but they do have debts because sometimes the things they (or their rich parents) are doing with the $ have bigger returns than the loan interest, so it is actually stupid to pay off the loan even if you can afford to. The kind of mindless blanket "everyone get all student loans expunged" approach AOC wants will mean taking tax payer dollars and giving billions to people who do not need it. Which in turn guarantees less money for other forms of help for those that do need it, b/c despite AOC's bad math, fiscal spending is a zero sum game.

From what I have seen so far, Biden is taking the far more rational and ethical approach that will optimize help to those that need it.

Bullshit. The more time you spend fucking around about who you help, the less money will be available to actually help.

Nobody should have to sell their soul for an education.

Ignorance, the ignorance that we are born to, is a natural evil. It is the evil I first declare war upon. It is the truest, greatest war, and the only truly just war.

I will not accede to war profiteering.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

SCIENCE STUDENTS ONLY need apply!

The natural sciences -- physics, chemistry, astronomy, biology, etc. Where they verify the truth, not just transmit it.



All free tuition and loan forgiveness proposals should be targeted to science students only -- including technology and engineering.

What society is lacking today is enough scientists. The public investment must go where the need is greatest, where there are shortages, where there's real hope for progress and tangible results.

We don't need more experts in sociology, political science, history, economics, law, music, ethnic studies, women's studies, Black studies, Eskimo studies, philosophy, community organizing, theology, education (except science education), business, literature, . . . .

No one even agrees what an "expert" is anymore in these subject areas. None of these can claim credit for the vast progress in well-being which has happened in recent centuries -- they are the results of progress, not the cause of any progress. There are few if any real tests to determine who really knows the truth in any of these popular fields taught in higher education. Almost anyone can claim to be an expert by just flashing their credential, especially if it's from an Ivy League school, and then babble their way through any job-screening barrier, with some minimum communicating skills and body language.

But the scientists/engineers have to prove themselves by producing something which works, demonstrated in real tests, like the recent Mars landing, or other achievements which lead to practical benefits we all recognize or even depend on every day.

And we are way behind in satisfying the need for more scientists, by providing the same rewards to the liberal-arts status-seekers who do nothing but give speeches and radiate good vibes and inspire their followers to spread their theories about human nature rather than producing anything of verifiable value.


Free tuition also to FOREIGNERS willing to enter a science discipline: Since most Americans want to study only literature and ethnic studies and philosophy and drama and art, etc., why not extend the invitation to immigrants who will commit to a hard science education -- they must prove themselves with ongoing tests as a condition to remain in the program -- in order to meet society's need/demand.

Attractive freebie programs to students should be aimed primarily at recruiting them to serve the need of society to fix the things that are wrong, address threats like energy shortage and climate change and famine and contagious diseases, etc., and not aimed at pandering to status-seekers or giving comfort to needy victims who feel inferior or cheated or having self-esteem and -identification problems and demanding their rights.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "1. Who cares what school someone went to? ..." / Twitter
Evidently referring to President Biden's mention of elite schools.

1. Who cares what school someone went to? Entire generations of working class kids were encouraged to go into more debt under the guise of elitism. This is wrong.

Sounds like AOC is basically arguing that college education has no real value and is just a form of elitism. Sound pretty right-wing and anti-thetical to the very core liberal philosophy. Kids were encouraged to go to college. They were not encouraged to go to the most expensive private colleges. If we were to institute free college, it would and should only apply to public universities and not mean we hand people a blank check to give to any private institution they want. So, how does it make sense to pay the full cost of loan to private schools?

Also, many students worked their way through school, including work-study programs to reduce their loans, while others just took out more loans, so they could spend all free time partying. Students make choices that impact how much loan debt they acquired. How is that not a reasonable factor to consider?

BTW, there are many people who use student loans for completely unnecessary things unrelated to school. If you get a subsidized loan, it's basically free money that doesn't start costing you anything in interest until 6 months after you graduate. I took out a 5k student loan in grad school and stuck it in a CD where I earned interest. Even when it started accruing interest, I locked in at a low rate that was lower than the CD interest I was getting, so I just left it in there until my CD matured and interest rates were lower. A friend use his loan to buy a Harley, and another invested in stocks and the returns he was getting outpaced interest, so he had no reason to pay it off even though he could. Had our loans been forgiven, that's just free money we got that we didn't actually need and didn't use for education.

We didn't event that tactic, which is related to another stupid comment by AOC:

"The idea that millionaires and billionaires are willingly letting their kids drown in federal student loans & that’s why we can’t go big on forgiveness is about as silly as it sounds."

Sure, rich kid's are not "drowning" in debt, but they do have debts because sometimes the things they (or their rich parents) are doing with the $ have bigger returns than the loan interest, so it is actually stupid to pay off the loan even if you can afford to. The kind of mindless blanket "everyone get all student loans expunged" approach AOC wants will mean taking tax payer dollars and giving billions to people who do not need it. Which in turn guarantees less money for other forms of help for those that do need it, b/c despite AOC's bad math, fiscal spending is a zero sum game.

From what I have seen so far, Biden is taking the far more rational and ethical approach that will optimize help to those that need it.

Agree with your post. On average, college graduates make 73% more than high school graduates. I think that they should pay for some of it. Secondly, the average college grad has a student debt roughly the size of a new car. I don't think that it's the crisis that some make it out to be:

https://www.knox.edu/magazine/spring-2018/features/yes-college-is-worth-it

I would focus more on lowering the costs and barriers for community college and trade schools.

 

[Politesse]

No one even agrees what an "expert" is anymore in these subject areas. None of these can claim credit for the vast progress in well-being which has happened in recent centuries -- they are the results of progress, not the cause of any progress.

And yet, as we march bach to the Dark Ages, the call to torch the humanities and social sciences roars all the louder. As indeed happened going into the first Dark Ages.It's almost as though there's some kind of mysterious connection between naked misanthropy and the enactment of social horrors.

 

[TSwizzle]

BTW, there are many people who use student loans for completely unnecessary things unrelated to school. If you get a subsidized loan, it's basically free money that doesn't start costing you anything in interest until 6 months after you graduate. I took out a 5k student loan in grad school and stuck it in a CD where I earned interest. Even when it started accruing interest, I locked in at a low rate that was lower than the CD interest I was getting, so I just left it in there until my CD matured and interest rates were lower. A friend use his loan to buy a Harley, and another invested in stocks and the returns he was getting outpaced interest, so he had no reason to pay it off even though he could. Had our loans been forgiven, that's just free money we got that we didn't actually need and didn't use for education.

Interesting. But how did you get a subsidized loan when it looks like you didn't need it and therefore probably didn't qualify ?

 

[steve_bank]

Students make a choice to go into debt.

The diploma mills that sprung up are very expensive. Students seem to think that if they get a piece of paper their future is secured with a good job.

Colleges make a lot 0f money on foreign students.

It is life lesson #1, look before you leap.

The idea that you can not have a good lifew without a 4 yrar degree has become the norm. Trades like welding are considered menial, yet can pay 6 figure incomes.

Here in Seattle anyone graduating from a Searle high school gets free community college tuition. You do not need to go nto deep debt to get started.

 

[Playball40]

That makes it a year of full-time work to pay for a year of college.

At minimum wage though. Also, this is not an "all or nothing" proposition. A student can work part time and still use things like scholarships, grants (like Pell) and, yes, loans.

Student loans are not evil, but choosing a reasonably priced university and maybe working part time to cover some of the costs means a smaller loan burden.
Accumulating for example a six figure loan for a BA and MA in art history or something is stupid and should not result in a bailout by the taxpayers.

Some loan forgiveness is probably a good idea, 10k as Biden suggested or 20k as some sort of compromise. But 50k? Too much.

Art history is not stupid. Obviously you do not spend any time in museums.

 

[steve_bank]

That makes it a year of full-time work to pay for a year of college.

At minimum wage though. Also, this is not an "all or nothing" proposition. A student can work part time and still use things like scholarships, grants (like Pell) and, yes, loans.

Student loans are not evil, but choosing a reasonably priced university and maybe working part time to cover some of the costs means a smaller loan burden.
Accumulating for example a six figure loan for a BA and MA in art history or something is stupid and should not result in a bailout by the taxpayers.

Some loan forgiveness is probably a good idea, 10k as Biden suggested or 20k as some sort of compromise. But 50k? Too much.

Art history is not stupid. Obviously you do not spend any time in museums.

Should a truck driver supporting family have to subsidize a PHD in art history for which there is little demand?

I'd say no.

We should subsidize education that has direct value for the economy. Doctors, engineers, chemists, teachers,
and non degree technical training. Mechanics, IT specialists, welders and so on.

In the early 70s I was around mostly art and music students. Many talented people but limited opportunities to make a living wage. Competition between music students was appropriately fierce.

 

[ronburgundy]

Sounds like AOC is basically arguing that college education has no real value and is just a form of elitism. Sound pretty right-wing and anti-thetical to the very core liberal philosophy. Kids were encouraged to go to college. They were not encouraged to go to the most expensive private colleges. If we were to institute free college, it would and should only apply to public universities and not mean we hand people a blank check to give to any private institution they want. So, how does it make sense to pay the full cost of loan to private schools?

Also, many students worked their way through school, including work-study programs to reduce their loans, while others just took out more loans, so they could spend all free time partying. Students make choices that impact how much loan debt they acquired. How is that not a reasonable factor to consider?

BTW, there are many people who use student loans for completely unnecessary things unrelated to school. If you get a subsidized loan, it's basically free money that doesn't start costing you anything in interest until 6 months after you graduate. I took out a 5k student loan in grad school and stuck it in a CD where I earned interest. Even when it started accruing interest, I locked in at a low rate that was lower than the CD interest I was getting, so I just left it in there until my CD matured and interest rates were lower. A friend use his loan to buy a Harley, and another invested in stocks and the returns he was getting outpaced interest, so he had no reason to pay it off even though he could. Had our loans been forgiven, that's just free money we got that we didn't actually need and didn't use for education.

We didn't event that tactic, which is related to another stupid comment by AOC:

"The idea that millionaires and billionaires are willingly letting their kids drown in federal student loans & that’s why we can’t go big on forgiveness is about as silly as it sounds."

Sure, rich kid's are not "drowning" in debt, but they do have debts because sometimes the things they (or their rich parents) are doing with the $ have bigger returns than the loan interest, so it is actually stupid to pay off the loan even if you can afford to. The kind of mindless blanket "everyone get all student loans expunged" approach AOC wants will mean taking tax payer dollars and giving billions to people who do not need it. Which in turn guarantees less money for other forms of help for those that do need it, b/c despite AOC's bad math, fiscal spending is a zero sum game.

From what I have seen so far, Biden is taking the far more rational and ethical approach that will optimize help to those that need it.

Bullshit. The more time you spend fucking around about who you help, the less money will be available to actually help.

IOW, you believe in a magic fairy land where tax revenues have no limits.

Nobody should have to sell their soul for an education.

No, but everyone else shouldn't have to "sell their soul" so some shallow person can waste an addition $50k per year at a prestigious school seeking social status that has nothing to do with being educated.

Ignorance, the ignorance that we are born to, is a natural evil. It is the evil I first declare war upon. It is the truest, greatest war, and the only truly just war.

And you're trying to aid and abet our enemy in that war, by wasting money on things that do nothing to educate or reduce the evil of ignorance.

I will not accede to war profiteering.

That is precisely what you are doing by wanting to give unlimited money to private schools via blanket loan forgiveness.
Your empty platitudes don't make you a righteous champion of education, but an obstacle to real progress.