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US student loans grotesquely high

Art history is not stupid. Obviously you do not spend any time in museums.

Should a truck driver supporting family have to subsidize a PHD in art history for which there is little demand?

I'd say no.

We should subsidize education that has direct value for the economy. Doctors, engineers, chemists, teachers,
and non degree technical training. Mechanics, IT specialists, welders and so on.

In the early 70s I was around mostly art and music students. Many talented people but limited opportunities to make a living wage. Competition between music students was appropriately fierce.

We should subsidize things that have value to society and the progress of society. The ability to produce goods with clear economic value is only one limited type of social value. You list "teachers" as having value, but much of what K-12 teachers teach doesn't (and shouldn't) have direct economic value. Understanding history isn't neccessary for 99.9% of professions, neither is understanding most of basic science, including the theory of evolution. But people knowing these things impacts moral, social, and political progress, making people better "citizens" able to make more informed rational political choices, without which democracy ultimately fails. For similar reasons, there is value in art, sociology, psychology, and English majors. Even much of the hard sciences has no obvious direct economic value. That is the nature of basic science. The goal of education is not merely to train workers. In fact, such a notion applied to higher education is a very recent thing created by the right, who only value wealth. Human civilization, morality, and politics has progressed from the Dark Ages to where it is today, in large part because of people educated for no economic utility at all, but for the principle that knowledge of all things has inherent value.
 
Art history is not stupid. Obviously you do not spend any time in museums.

Should a truck driver supporting family have to subsidize a PHD in art history for which there is little demand?

I'd say no.

We should subsidize education that has direct value for the economy. Doctors, engineers, chemists, teachers,
and non degree technical training. Mechanics, IT specialists, welders and so on.

In the early 70s I was around mostly art and music students. Many talented people but limited opportunities to make a living wage. Competition between music students was appropriately fierce.

We should subsidize things that have value to society and the progress of society. The ability to produce goods with clear economic value is only one limited type of social value. You list "teachers" as having value, but much of what K-12 teachers teach doesn't (and shouldn't) have direct economic value. Understanding history isn't neccessary for 99.9% of professions, neither is understanding most of basic science, including the theory of evolution. But people knowing these things impacts moral, social, and political progress, making people better "citizens" able to make more informed rational political choices, without which democracy ultimately fails. For similar reasons, there is value in art, sociology, psychology, and English majors. Even much of the hard sciences has no obvious direct economic value. That is the nature of basic science. The goal of education is not merely to train workers. In fact, such a notion applied to higher education is a very recent thing created by the right, who only value wealth. Human civilization, morality, and politics has progressed from the Dark Ages to where it is today, in large part because of people educated for no economic utility at all, but for the principle that knowledge of all things has inherent value.

If someone wants to enrich themselves witrh art history read books and take classes...on their own time and money.

While I am an independent centrist there is a growing processive view that govt should provide abd be all things to all people all the time, and anything less constitutes bias, inequity, and unfair.

We have trouble providing consistent primary education across the country and demographics as it is. That has to be fixed before paying for higher education personal enrichment.

Higher education is supposed to provide those who are going to make things work, not fanciful endeavors.
 
We should subsidize things that have value to society and the progress of society. The ability to produce goods with clear economic value is only one limited type of social value. You list "teachers" as having value, but much of what K-12 teachers teach doesn't (and shouldn't) have direct economic value. Understanding history isn't neccessary for 99.9% of professions, neither is understanding most of basic science, including the theory of evolution. But people knowing these things impacts moral, social, and political progress, making people better "citizens" able to make more informed rational political choices, without which democracy ultimately fails. For similar reasons, there is value in art, sociology, psychology, and English majors. Even much of the hard sciences has no obvious direct economic value. That is the nature of basic science. The goal of education is not merely to train workers. In fact, such a notion applied to higher education is a very recent thing created by the right, who only value wealth. Human civilization, morality, and politics has progressed from the Dark Ages to where it is today, in large part because of people educated for no economic utility at all, but for the principle that knowledge of all things has inherent value.

If someone wants to enrich themselves witrh art history read books and take classes...on their own time and money.

While I am an independent centrist there is a growing processive view that govt should provide abd be all things to all people all the time, and anything less constitutes bias, inequity, and unfair.

We have trouble providing consistent primary education across the country and demographics as it is. That has to be fixed before paying for higher education personal enrichment.

Higher education is supposed to provide those who are going to make things work, not fanciful endeavors.

I am likely further to the left that you, but I agree with much of your post. I was an English major back in the late 60s ad early 70s. I paid back my loans for that worthless education. Sure, they were much lower than what many students owe today, but they were still about the price of a car during that era and my ex and I were very low income for many years.

These days there are far more ways to learn the liberal arts without going to college. Even Harvard has or had free online courses over the past several years. The internet has allowed us to learn most anything, especially in the fields related to liberal arts. The college where I studied English was at liberal arts school, but it also had degrees in education and business. Everyone was expected to take a wide range of liberal arts, and I can tell you that most students paid little attention in these classes and learned very little. It was usually easy for me to pull a B without ever gong to class. I will admit that I never cared about getting top grades during the time I spent studying lib arts. I didn't even know what I wanted to do with my life. I only attended class if I thought the teacher was interesting, and class attendance wasn't mandatory, as we rebellious young boomers protested for that right. We protested everything back in the day. Fun times, but I digress.

I did have a wonderful Western Civ. instructor, but did I really need to take that class to be successful in life? No. It was enriching and helped me understand the history of mostly white people. These days, I could have learned the exact same things independently. It's sad that so many people have loans that they struggle to pay back, but life is tough and we all learn through our mistakes. I've made my share. They made me a stronger, more thoughtful person.

I know that those in academia will strongly disagree with me, and I understand that, but I feel strongly that formal education in contemporary America needs to be directly tied to the job market. My son is a good example. He's a computer programmer/developer. I asked him last week if he still liked what he does. His answer was, "Yes, I'll be coding till death'. He found something that he liked and was talented at doing. I felt that way about nursing. It gave me a satisfying, while stressful career. Majoring in English didn't prepare me for life or for a career.

We also tend to under value electricians, plumbers, mechanics, nurses aides, sanitation workers etc. These are very important jobs of all, imo. Academics can sit and enjoy mentally masturbating for hours, but if the toilet stops running, or if the car breaks down, or the lights won't go on, all of that intellectualism isn't going to help.
 
We should subsidize things that have value to society and the progress of society. The ability to produce goods with clear economic value is only one limited type of social value. You list "teachers" as having value, but much of what K-12 teachers teach doesn't (and shouldn't) have direct economic value. Understanding history isn't neccessary for 99.9% of professions, neither is understanding most of basic science, including the theory of evolution. But people knowing these things impacts moral, social, and political progress, making people better "citizens" able to make more informed rational political choices, without which democracy ultimately fails. For similar reasons, there is value in art, sociology, psychology, and English majors. Even much of the hard sciences has no obvious direct economic value. That is the nature of basic science. The goal of education is not merely to train workers. In fact, such a notion applied to higher education is a very recent thing created by the right, who only value wealth. Human civilization, morality, and politics has progressed from the Dark Ages to where it is today, in large part because of people educated for no economic utility at all, but for the principle that knowledge of all things has inherent value.

If someone wants to enrich themselves witrh art history read books and take classes...on their own time and money.

While I am an independent centrist there is a growing processive view that govt should provide abd be all things to all people all the time, and anything less constitutes bias, inequity, and unfair.

We have trouble providing consistent primary education across the country and demographics as it is. That has to be fixed before paying for higher education personal enrichment.

Higher education is supposed to provide those who are going to make things work, not fanciful endeavors.

I am likely further to the left that you, but I agree with much of your post. I was an English major back in the late 60s ad early 70s. I paid back my loans for that worthless education. Sure, they were much lower than what many students owe today, but they were still about the price of a car during that era and my ex and I were very low income for many years.

These days there are far more ways to learn the liberal arts without going to college. Even Harvard has or had free online courses over the past several years. The internet has allowed us to learn most anything, especially in the fields related to liberal arts. The college where I studied English was at liberal arts school, but it also had degrees in education and business. Everyone was expected to take a wide range of liberal arts, and I can tell you that most students paid little attention in these classes and learned very little. It was usually easy for me to pull a B without ever gong to class. I will admit that I never cared about getting top grades during the time I spent studying lib arts. I didn't even know what I wanted to do with my life. I only attended class if I thought the teacher was interesting, and class attendance wasn't mandatory, as we rebellious young boomers protested for that right. We protested everything back in the day. Fun times, but I digress.

I did have a wonderful Western Civ. instructor, but did I really need to take that class to be successful in life? No. It was enriching and helped me understand the history of mostly white people. These days, I could have learned the exact same things independently. It's sad that so many people have loans that they struggle to pay back, but life is tough and we all learn through our mistakes. I've made my share. They made me a stronger, more thoughtful person.

I know that those in academia will strongly disagree with me, and I understand that, but I feel strongly that formal education in contemporary America needs to be directly tied to the job market. My son is a good example. He's a computer programmer/developer. I asked him last week if he still liked what he does. His answer was, "Yes, I'll be coding till death'. He found something that he liked and was talented at doing. I felt that way about nursing. It gave me a satisfying, while stressful career. Majoring in English didn't prepare me for life or for a career.

We also tend to under value electricians, plumbers, mechanics, nurses aides, sanitation workers etc. These are very important jobs of all, imo. Academics can sit and enjoy mentally masturbating for hours, but if the toilet stops running, or if the car breaks down, or the lights won't go on, all of that intellectualism isn't going to help.

So, you are both basically saying that society would be no worse if no one engaged in systematic evidence-based analysis of historical events, sociological change, the causes of human behavior and mental states, etc..

Because without a formal system of education those enterprises wouldn't exists nor would any progress in understanding about those areas. The only reason you can listen to a Ted Talk on those things is because formal education on which formal academic inquiry rests produced the knowledge and the people in those Talks and on websites, etc.. Without continued investment, there is no progress in that understanding. And research shows that few people are capable of effectively self education via the internet. In fact, the internet makes self education much harder now than a century ago, b/c today the ratio of online information sources peddled by charlatans and propagandists relative to knowledgeable experts is far far lower than the corresponding ratio of information in published books at a library in 1900. Among novices to an area, miseducation is a far more likely outcome of people self selecting their information sources online. That is one of the things formal education does, it applies standards for what is a learning resource and how and for what to use various resources. The instructor can guide the student in integrating the information across sources. In addition, the value of the Socratic method is lost without interactive instruction where students can ask questions to get clarification, and teachers can ask the student questions that prompt deeper reflection and cause the knowledge the student already has to become more coherent, elaborated, applicable, and thus to be applied where relevant.
 
The question is who pays for it.

History students are like music and art students. Not a lot of opportunity to make a living wage. Only a few do so.

The study of history is of value. So is philosophy.

If you really want to pursue something you will find a way. In a low demand field you have to compete.

In the 90s I took a night continuing ed class in CS form a Vietnamese professor. Multiple PHDs.

He would chuckle and say American students have it too easy. He did his undergrad in math during the VN War living on very little.

Progressives like Sanders make liberal use of the word free. Even in a society without capitalism and profit and money there would still be economics. If all education is free somebody has too provide facilities, food, clothing and supplies to teachers and students.

'Free' is always based on the labor of others. Free implies something you do not have to work for. Student loan forgiveness is not free, somebody carries the burden...taxpayers.

When you go to a bank for a loan they will expect you to have a credible plan to pay it back. Govt backed student loans do not. You get a loan for any program at an accredited institution regardless of career viability.

In the 80s I knew guy who took a degree in philosophy and then got a 2 year degree in electronics so he could get a job.

There was a long post war stretch when any degree would get you a job somewhere. Instructions began putting out more and more students to the point where a degree has lost a lot of value. Simple supply and demand. As dermand goes up price goes up. Education has become a profit making commodity.
 
We don't need more experts in sociology, political science, history, economics, law, music, ethnic studies, women's studies, Black studies, Eskimo studies, philosophy, community organizing, theology, education (except science education), business, literature, . . . .

While your scorn of some of these are justified you are tarring things you don't understand.

And if you exclude non-science education how do you expect people to learn science when they haven't learned how to read?
 
In the early 70s I was around mostly art and music students. Many talented people but limited opportunities to make a living wage. Competition between music students was appropriately fierce.

I think this is a point being missed.

There has always been people who take low demand higher education majors. The difference is that back then, H.E. was much cheaper and better subsidized. Now it's very expensive and costly to the student. It's leaving a significant portion of the US population at a great disadvantage to being prosperous in society and it's hurting society as a whole.
 
Why have colleges become so expensive? Shouldn't that issue be addressed first?
well that's a social and cultural problem, so it's extremely difficult to address legislatively.

college is expensive for the same reason diamonds are expensive: a bunch of rubes got tricked into thinking the product has universal value for everyone, artificially inflating what people think the product is worth so vastly far beyond any measurable actual metric that the price of the thing no longer has even the slightest connection to the logistics of the thing.
This is an inertial thing. Most degrees were all worth something, but with a ton of people graduating with all these degrees, that led to the devaluation of some of them.

But this doesn't address that college costs have gone through the roof, especially public college.

The Ohio State University Tuition
1990 - $2,000
2000 - $4,000
2008 - $8,000
2020 - $11,000

Inflation since 1990 is about 2x. So college prices went up 550% compared to inflation's 200% increase. Public funding of college has dropped.
 
The market will fix itself with college enrollments on the decline folks. Sometime in the distant future, this country won't have the technical & medical talents needed to support our military and domestic infrastructure. When our boats start sinking, planes start falling out of the sky, bridges start collapsing & all our doctors are Arab's the population will finally wake up to realize it should never have been about the money.
 
In the early 70s I was around mostly art and music students. Many talented people but limited opportunities to make a living wage. Competition between music students was appropriately fierce.

I think this is a point being missed.

There has always been people who take low demand higher education majors. The difference is that back then, H.E. was much cheaper and better subsidized. Now it's very expensive and costly to the student. It's leaving a significant portion of the US population at a great disadvantage to being prosperous in society and it's hurting society as a whole.

What happened to the starving artist struggling to succeed or die? :D

The question is what level of burden everyone else should carry bexause domebody wants to paint or compose.

There is a vast group of modern muscians who succed in the freemarkt of all kinds.



You do not need a college degree to learn music theory.
 
It can be argued that student loans fostered the rise in tuion, charge what the market can pay.

International students who pay high full prices has became a major revenue for colleges and universities. When I was in Portland in the 80s Portland State was a popular school for mid east students with money. They had a reputation for going wild when free from their home culture.

Student loans sprouted a number of useless diploma mills that put students into serious debt. Some have been shut down.

The question is what is colleges supposed to provide?
 
And yet, as we march bach to the Dark Ages,
You surely mean march bach to the Baroque Ages ...

the call to torch the humanities and social sciences roars all the louder. As indeed happened going into the first Dark Ages.
Yes, because we all know the shortage of postmodernist humanities and social science majors is what brought the Roman Empire down. :banghead:

Ironically, most modern historians dispute the idea that the Dark Ages were as dark as their reputation.

It's almost as though there's some kind of mysterious connection between naked misanthropy and the enactment of social horrors.

First you need to show how most of what passes for social science and humanities these days is beneficial in averting those.
 
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Art history is not stupid.

Art history qua art history is not stupid. Taking out six-figure loans to get an art history degree when the chances of getting one of the relatively few jobs in the field are rather remote is stupid. There are only so many museum curators, art gallery or auction house experts and the like that our economy can absorb.

Countries like Germany where university education is free are also more careful in creating seats that are surplus to requirements. Not so in the US which is the reason for the oversupply of PhD in certain disciplines as we have discussed a few years ago.

Obviously you do not spend any time in museums.

Well, not lately.
 
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Because without a formal system of education those enterprises wouldn't exists nor would any progress in understanding about those areas. The only reason you can listen to a Ted Talk on those things is because formal education on which formal academic inquiry rests produced the knowledge and the people in those Talks and on websites, etc.. Without continued investment, there is no progress in that understanding.
True. There is need for some academic professionals in these areas. Not nearly as many as choose those and similar majors though. It's a game of numbers.

And research shows that few people are capable of effectively self education via the internet. In fact, the internet makes self education much harder now than a century ago, b/c today the ratio of online information sources peddled by charlatans and propagandists relative to knowledgeable experts is far far lower than the corresponding ratio of information in published books at a library in 1900. Among novices to an area, miseducation is a far more likely outcome of people self selecting their information sources online.
That is one of the things formal education does, it applies standards for what is a learning resource and how and for what to use various resources.
Unless you go to school in Seattle and the like. There you'll learn how math is racist and seeking the right answer and showing your work fruits of white supremacy. :rolleyes:
There is miseducation within formal frameworks as well.
 
Should a truck driver supporting family have to subsidize a PHD in art history for which there is little demand?

I'd say no.

We should subsidize education that has direct value for the economy. Doctors, engineers, chemists, teachers,
and non degree technical training. Mechanics, IT specialists, welders and so on.
.
No physicists, mathematicians and biologists?
 
Why have colleges become so expensive? Shouldn't that issue be addressed first?
well that's a social and cultural problem, so it's extremely difficult to address legislatively.

college is expensive for the same reason diamonds are expensive: a bunch of rubes got tricked into thinking the product has universal value for everyone, artificially inflating what people think the product is worth so vastly far beyond any measurable actual metric that the price of the thing no longer has even the slightest connection to the logistics of the thing.
This is an inertial thing. Most degrees were all worth something, but with a ton of people graduating with all these degrees, that led to the devaluation of some of them.

But this doesn't address that college costs have gone through the roof, especially public college.

The Ohio State University Tuition
1990 - $2,000
2000 - $4,000
2008 - $8,000
2020 - $11,000

Inflation since 1990 is about 2x. So college prices went up 550% compared to inflation's 200% increase. Public funding of college has dropped.
We all know why tuition have gone up. Because administrative costs went up.
 
The combination of seemingly libertarian ideas and a fervent attempt to force students to take majors they aren't interested in is strange to me. Like, are we supposed to have freedom of choice or not? They pretend its about numbers, but the data doesn't actually support the idea that people are being somehow impoverished by English degrees, so it isn't really about numbers.
 
This is an inertial thing. Most degrees were all worth something, but with a ton of people graduating with all these degrees, that led to the devaluation of some of them.

But this doesn't address that college costs have gone through the roof, especially public college.

The Ohio State University Tuition
1990 - $2,000
2000 - $4,000
2008 - $8,000
2020 - $11,000

Inflation since 1990 is about 2x. So college prices went up 550% compared to inflation's 200% increase. Public funding of college has dropped.
We all know why tuition have gone up. Because administrative costs went up.

Also supplementary programs and services to students that never existed before, existed only for wealthy schools, or existed outside of higher education before the Reagan era. Colleges are increasingly sources of tutoring, physical and mental health care, social services, financial couneling, and many other things. Employees, be they faculty or classified, have also become more expensive over time as medical insurance costs have skyrocketed.
 
If we parse a bit further we find that going to college isn't the key. It's what industry does one get in to. One doesn't need to check to far to find that Business law and finance marketing are way out in front.

Investment banking

TitleBase SalaryBonusTotal Remuneration
Analyst$85k - $100k$50k - $100k$125k - $200k
Associate$100k - $120k$80k - $130k$180k - $250k
Vice President$120k - $150k$100k - $250k$220k - $400k
Managing Director$300k - $1M$200k - $10M+$500k - $10M+

from:Investment Banker Salary Report: Full Figures Revealed https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/careers/compensation/investment-banker-salary/

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From: State of Working America Wages 2019 https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2019/
 
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