Animals That Speak: are they "really" speaking?

[Jarhyn]

So a thread was started in Moral Principles about the ethical implications of an animal that speaks, particularly of a variety which we as humans eat.

Such examples of animals which speak include both a wide array of gorillas who have command of sign language, as well as a growing number of house pets which have been given access to sound boards, among the number of which includes a poodle/shepherd mix with a stunning amount of vocabulary and the apparent capability of mixing words to create adverbs.

Now, it seems to me to be a No-True-Scotsman to claim that any effective use of tokens to proxy for ideas is not actually language, or to claim that animals can't do it, seeing as we ARE animals who do it. But here's a place to bicker and fight over whether animals can learn to talk.

 

[untermensche]

Total disagreement is not bickering.

Language is a complex system.

It is not mere association of sounds.

 

[skepticalbip]

The OP seems to be conflating several different concepts. There is a great difference between talking, words, speech, communication, and communicating so that humans can understand. All higher animals communicate... although the level of communication varies significantly between species. Dolphins have a fairly large range of communication between themselves but humans can't understand it. The OP seems to be arguing that dolphins would be more "important" if humans could understand them (making their communication, 'talking').

 

[untermensche]

That is all correct.

There is a difference between language and the use of language and communication.

A facial gesture can communicate. But it is not language.

But gestures can be a language. Sign language is a valid language.

 

[steve_bank]

Are we not animals? Sounds like the old human centric view. We are not part of nature.

Do animals communicate with collective behavior? It looks that way. From a show dolphins appear to have unique sounds for individuals.

For a chimp body language and tone of sounds communicate clearly in chimp society.

 

[steve_bank]

A gorilla taught sign language passed it on, and append to use it to del with new situations that were not scripted.

 

[southernhybrid]

All or most all animals communicate. From some of the many books that I've read about the other primates, the only reason they can't speak is because they don't have the anatomy to be able. to speak in the way that humans do. But, for anyone who doesn't believe that other animals speak, I challenge them to read about Alex the famous African Grey parrot who was studied for many years by his research scientist owner. Alex even made up words. For example when he was asked what an almond was, his reply was "cork nut". An almond is a nut that does resemble cork. It's been years since I read about Alex so I don't remember many details, but I have no doubt that Alex spoke.

My two parrots speak, but not nearly as much as Alex. Alex was a brilliant parrot, mine not so much. I've never tried to teach them anything, so the words and expressions that they chose to learn and use were all their own decisions. I've read that parrots in captivity will learn the words that they want to learn. My African Grey used to say "apple" quite often during his infatuation with apples. He never says it anymore. He seems to prefer imitating the birds outside the window. He loves to whistle when he wants our attention. He does say a few words and so does my little cockatoo. Apparently parrots do have the anatomy which allows them to learn and then repeat the language of humans.

My dogs aren't able to verbalize but they know how to tell me what they want. They know how to tell me when they need to go outside to pee, or when they are hungry or when they want to be cuddled or given a hug. I guess you could say that they speak non verbally, just like some humans who can't speak, but can use sign language to communicate.

Read a few of the books written by Frans de Waal if you want to understand how the other primates communicate. Frans de Waal has spent most of his adult life studying Bonobos and other great apes. I have no doubt that Frans de Waal has provided plenty of well researched evidence of all of the things we have in common with the other great apes, including how they are able to communicate with us. Sometimes I think we're the dumb ones, as non human animals can frequently learn what we are saying, but we aren't always as talented at learning their languages.

 

[untermensche]

Birds will mimic all kinds of sounds. Clicks and buzzes and turning machinery.

Some mimic the sound they hear from humans.

Some can even associate those sounds with objects or outcomes.

This is not language but it is mimicry and communication with sound.

It appears that some song birds do have something close to human language though.

Some whales too.

Humans may not be the only thing using a form of language.

 

[abaddon]

Sometimes I think we're the dumb ones, as non human animals can frequently learn what we are saying, but we aren't always as talented at learning their languages.

That's what I wonder whenever I see humans requiring other animals to take up our language or act like us or be cute to us, or else we don't think there's much intrinsic value to their lives. Our human-centric bias limits us a great deal. Some of these animals show better mental agility in bridging the cross-species gap.

 

[fromderinside]

That is all correct.

There is a difference between language and the use of language and communication.

A facial gesture can communicate. But it is not language.

But gestures can be a language. Sign language is a valid language.

Neither is the mere association of sounds, facial expressions, body language, any hierarchical societal behavior, etc.

Your Poo Poo is not a Poo Poo.

 

[Treedbear]

That is all correct.

There is a difference between language and the use of language and communication.

A facial gesture can communicate. But it is not language.

But gestures can be a language. Sign language is a valid language.

Neither is the mere association of sounds, facial expressions, body language, any hierarchical societal behavior, etc.

Your Poo Poo is not a Poo Poo.

Damning with faint poo poo.

 

[untermensche]

Thinking did not arise for communication.

But like the movements of the tongue are connected to language so is thinking.

 

[Jarhyn]

So here is an unambiguous instance of direct and specific animal communication.

There's no ambiguity that what is being said is about a flower.

 

[Elixir]

“Animals That Speak: are they "really" speaking?”

They’re definitely vocalizing. Whether they have any idea what they’re “talking” about is doubtful.
Kinda like trumpsuckers.

 

[lpetrich]

Most animal communication is very simple, single or repeated sounds, postures, pheromones, etc. Complexity is rare.

Honeybees do a  Waggle dance to tell each other about what they found.

Some birds make songs consisting of sequences of different sounds, and some whales do likewise.

Human language is much more complicated than what any other present-day species can do, with the possible exception of what some cetaceans do. It's far beyond what chimpanzees are capable of. Chimps have very limited vocal capabilities, and efforts to teach them sign language have had only very limited success. They can learn a sizable number of individual signs, but beyond that, they only seem capable of two-sign phrases like "drink fruit" for watermelon.

Lucy (chimpanzee) | Psychology Wiki | Fandom
Researcher Roger Fouts once discovered some dirty dirty on the floor, and he asked Lucy whose dirty dirty it was.

Fouts: What that?
Lucy: What that?
Fouts: You know. What that?
Lucy: Dirty dirty.
Fouts: Whose dirty dirty?
Lucy: Sue. [a reference to Sue Savage-Rumbaugh, a graduate student of Fouts]
Fouts: It not Sue. Whose that?
Lucy: Roger!
Fouts: No! Not mine. Whose?
Lucy: Lucy dirty dirty. Sorry Lucy.

 

[pood]

Chimpanzee produce diverse vocal sequences with ordered and recombinatorial properties

 

[steve_bank]

Restate the OP as can non human species communicate using forms of language?

Then the debate is what constitutes a language.

From a show on dolphins audio analysis indicates they have unique sounds for each member of a group. Who knows what they are communicating.

 

[Jarhyn]

“Animals That Speak: are they "really" speaking?”

They’re definitely vocalizing. Whether they have any idea what they’re “talking” about is doubtful.
Kinda like trumpsuckers.

I mean I provided an example of a dog painting something specific all on their own.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A gorilla taught sign language passed it on, and append to use it to del with new situations that were not scripted.

More relevant I think is describing watermelon as "water fruit". That's understanding, not parroting.

 

[bilby]