New "Affirmative Action" nonsense

[Toni]

You are correct: government-sanctioned discrimination by race continues on in the form of affirmative action.

In fact, as a group,

And we're off and running!

members of certain ethnicity in the US have been discriminated against their entire lives, and in fact, before their birth when their mothers were less likely to receive good nutrition or good medical care.

If you're positing that a significant number of minority children, but not Asians, are literally brain-damaged from poor nutrition in utero, I assume you have evidence of that? And if that is what you are saying, what makes you think having lower entry standards for the affected group to medical degrees addresses anything at all?

Black, Hispanic and Native students are more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to attend a poorly funded school, more likely to live with significant exposure and threat from violence in their neighborhoods and schools, for starters. They are more likely to be arrested and to be convicted and to receive longer jail sentences than their white counterparts, and to be arrested, convicted and incarcerated for less serious offenses.

So...what? Are the White people who have grown up in poverty less deserving than your favoured minorities? And the Asians who have grown up in poverty, are they even less deserving than Whites?

Are you suggesting that the majority of people who have been convicted of crime are innocent, and it's merely racist policing that's responsible for the numbers?

If Black people as a group have a higher arrest and conviction rate, how on earth does that justify lower standards for medical school for that group?

It doesn't stop then: members of these groups are also assumed to be less qualified, less intelligent, less deserving, regardless of their own accomplishments, socioeconomic status, family status. It is quite possible to be an extremely well educated, highly successful black person in the U.S. and to still be refused service or to be arrested in your own home because someone thought you looked like you didn't belong there, in that neighborhood, that home that you have lived in for years. Because you are black.

So, we need to discriminate against selected White and Asian people to redress this?

How many generations should children have to wait to have a fair chance at life?

Tell me, by exactly how much should medical schools lower their standards to admit Sasha and Malia? After all, they're from the repressed group, are they not?

You'd also have a much bigger point if MCAT scores and GPA were the entire basis of admissions to med school. They aren't and while you may not like the idea,

Okay. Now I'm going to lose my patience with your strawmanning and I'ma start fucking swearing. I have, not ever, anywhere in time or space or the universe at alpha or omega ever ever said MCAT and GPA should be the entire basis of admission to anything. So, for the umpteenth time, will you please fucking drop the idea that I said that or believe it.

you cannot demonstrate that current medical school admissions standards are admitting students who are not qualified to be admitted.

And for the umpteenth fucking time, I never said 'not qualified'. I've said minority students (except Asians) do not have to reach the same standards of admission as other students, and the admission rates by race are proof. The Australian Public Service can advertise a job and rate any number of candidates 'suitable', but that does not mean every candidate is as qualified as every other. There's still an order of merit for everyone rated suitable, and the job is offered to the highest person on that order of merit.

In fact, very few medical students fail to successfully complete medical school. Medical schools seem to be doing an excellent job of screening candidates who truly wish to become physicians.

This is all completely and totally irrelevant. It has no connection to anything I've said and I don't know why you'd posit it.

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

 

[J842P]

Black and Latino candidates are two times, three times, sometimes eight times more likely to be admitted compared to White or Asian applicants.

Source?

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

First thing to notice: they have different grids by race. They have different grids, because medical schools discriminate based on race.

There are a lot of cells to comment on, but first, the acceptance rates for Asian applicants with an MCAT score 24-26, and a GPA of 2.80-2.99, was 6.8% (191 applicants in that category, 13 acceptances).

Now find the acceptance rate of Black applicants with the same MCAT score and GPA: 37.6% accepted (221 applicants, 83 succesful).

That is an odds ratio of 5.5. Black candidates with that GPA and MCAT score are five and a half times more likely to be accepted than Asian candidates with identical academic credentials and aptitude scores.

There are cells that show an even bigger discrepancy, but I don't want to draw firm conclusions from the lowest GPA/MCAT groupings because the number of candidates accepted from those cells is small and statistical inferences would be unreliable. However, it is worth noting that they are all generally in the same direction: as academic achievement and medical aptitude decreases, the gap between Black and Asian acceptance rates increases, favouring Blacks.

I've presented these tables many times on the old board. Of course, it didn't change anyone's mind if they're determined not to believe that affirmative action is discrimination by race, or if they do believe that and just don't care.

what is your solution or do you not find this a problem?

Define the problem. If the problem is 'we need to redress 400 years of discrimination against people who are long since dead' then there is no solution. It is certainly the case that discriminating against smart White and Asian kids applying to medical school cannot address it; it can only create a new cycle of discrimination based on race.

Whilst this new cycle is different from past discrimination, it has its own unique toxic effects. It targets individuals from ethnic groups where the ethnic group is doing too well. It does not attempt to remove advantage from individuals who have unfairly benefited from past discrimination (and I've already explained elsewhere that everyone is the worse off for past discrimination having taken place). It simply takes a narrow set of occupations (like law and medical school) and disadvantages the smart kids trying to get in (if they're White or Asian).

I once read an essay (from a speech) by Bill Clinton in support of affirmative action. Do you think Chelsea Clinton is going to be a victim to it? I guarantee you she won't be touched -- it'll be ordinary kids from middle and working class backgrounds who are smart enough to get a shot at medical or law school that will (and do) suffer from it. Do a web search on medical school + ethnicity. Asians are told outright by course advisers their MCAT scores will need to be higher than those of other ethnicities to get an equivalent shot.

If only discrimination was in the past and against people who are long since dead! It's not, not by a long shot.

In fact, as a group, members of certain ethnicity in the US have been discriminated against their entire lives, and in fact, before their birth when their mothers were less likely to receive good nutrition or good medical care. Black, Hispanic and Native students are more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to attend a poorly funded school, more likely to live with significant exposure and threat from violence in their neighborhoods and schools, for starters. They are more likely to be arrested and to be convicted and to receive longer jail sentences than their white counterparts, and to be arrested, convicted and incarcerated for less serious offenses. It doesn't stop then: members of these groups are also assumed to be less qualified, less intelligent, less deserving, regardless of their own accomplishments, socioeconomic status, family status. It is quite possible to be an extremely well educated, highly successful black person in the U.S. and to still be refused service or to be arrested in your own home because someone thought you looked like you didn't belong there, in that neighborhood, that home that you have lived in for years. Because you are black.

How many generations should children have to wait to have a fair chance at life?

You'd also have a much bigger point if MCAT scores and GPA were the entire basis of admissions to med school. They aren't and while you may not like the idea, you cannot demonstrate that current medical school admissions standards are admitting students who are not qualified to be admitted. In fact, very few medical students fail to successfully complete medical school. Medical schools seem to be doing an excellent job of screening candidates who truly wish to become physicians.

Toni, this doesn't address any of the arguments against current AA practices. You think it's OK for privileged Hispanics to get a leg up over poor Asians? You think poor Asians haven't been discriminated against just like Hispanics, and haven't had to live in dangerous neighborhoods with crappy schools? I don't even ask about poor whites because the implicit assumption seems to be "yes, white people had their day and now they should suck it up." It is grotesque that this is the supposedly progressive point of view. As a young person in America, it makes me realize that the problem of race will not go away any time soon as long as entire generations insist on judging people solely based on the color of their skin. The real solution is to have a real public University system in the United States that is affordable and won't put you back at least 50k in debt. One of the biggest issues with primary and secondary education is our absolutely stupid system whereby schools are locally funded. That makes sure that people who live in rich areas have rich schools. That should change. Those are real solutions.

 

[J842P]

You are correct: government-sanctioned discrimination by race continues on in the form of affirmative action.

In fact, as a group,

And we're off and running!

members of certain ethnicity in the US have been discriminated against their entire lives, and in fact, before their birth when their mothers were less likely to receive good nutrition or good medical care.

If you're positing that a significant number of minority children, but not Asians, are literally brain-damaged from poor nutrition in utero, I assume you have evidence of that? And if that is what you are saying, what makes you think having lower entry standards for the affected group to medical degrees addresses anything at all?

Black, Hispanic and Native students are more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to attend a poorly funded school, more likely to live with significant exposure and threat from violence in their neighborhoods and schools, for starters. They are more likely to be arrested and to be convicted and to receive longer jail sentences than their white counterparts, and to be arrested, convicted and incarcerated for less serious offenses.

So...what? Are the White people who have grown up in poverty less deserving than your favoured minorities? And the Asians who have grown up in poverty, are they even less deserving than Whites?

Are you suggesting that the majority of people who have been convicted of crime are innocent, and it's merely racist policing that's responsible for the numbers?

If Black people as a group have a higher arrest and conviction rate, how on earth does that justify lower standards for medical school for that group?

It doesn't stop then: members of these groups are also assumed to be less qualified, less intelligent, less deserving, regardless of their own accomplishments, socioeconomic status, family status. It is quite possible to be an extremely well educated, highly successful black person in the U.S. and to still be refused service or to be arrested in your own home because someone thought you looked like you didn't belong there, in that neighborhood, that home that you have lived in for years. Because you are black.

So, we need to discriminate against selected White and Asian people to redress this?

How many generations should children have to wait to have a fair chance at life?

Tell me, by exactly how much should medical schools lower their standards to admit Sasha and Malia? After all, they're from the repressed group, are they not?

You'd also have a much bigger point if MCAT scores and GPA were the entire basis of admissions to med school. They aren't and while you may not like the idea,

Okay. Now I'm going to lose my patience with your strawmanning and I'ma start fucking swearing. I have, not ever, anywhere in time or space or the universe at alpha or omega ever ever said MCAT and GPA should be the entire basis of admission to anything. So, for the umpteenth time, will you please fucking drop the idea that I said that or believe it.

you cannot demonstrate that current medical school admissions standards are admitting students who are not qualified to be admitted.

And for the umpteenth fucking time, I never said 'not qualified'. I've said minority students (except Asians) do not have to reach the same standards of admission as other students, and the admission rates by race are proof. The Australian Public Service can advertise a job and rate any number of candidates 'suitable', but that does not mean every candidate is as qualified as every other. There's still an order of merit for everyone rated suitable, and the job is offered to the highest person on that order of merit.

In fact, very few medical students fail to successfully complete medical school. Medical schools seem to be doing an excellent job of screening candidates who truly wish to become physicians.

This is all completely and totally irrelevant. It has no connection to anything I've said and I don't know why you'd posit it.

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

So you think whatever these other metrics are, they are enough to make Black and Hispanic students 5-times more likely to be accepted? It's racial discrimination, plain and simple.

 

[doubtingt]

I think this thread has the wrong title. It should read "Same Old Anti-Affirmative Action Nonsense".

The arguments against affirmative action are old, because the intellectual absurdity and immoral bigotry inherent to such policies has been obvious for a long time to all rational people. It is just sad that in all that time you've been incapable of mustering anything even pretending to be a reasoned counter-argument.

 

[Toni]

You are correct: government-sanctioned discrimination by race continues on in the form of affirmative action.

In fact, as a group,

And we're off and running!

members of certain ethnicity in the US have been discriminated against their entire lives, and in fact, before their birth when their mothers were less likely to receive good nutrition or good medical care.

If you're positing that a significant number of minority children, but not Asians, are literally brain-damaged from poor nutrition in utero, I assume you have evidence of that? And if that is what you are saying, what makes you think having lower entry standards for the affected group to medical degrees addresses anything at all?

Black, Hispanic and Native students are more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to attend a poorly funded school, more likely to live with significant exposure and threat from violence in their neighborhoods and schools, for starters. They are more likely to be arrested and to be convicted and to receive longer jail sentences than their white counterparts, and to be arrested, convicted and incarcerated for less serious offenses.

So...what? Are the White people who have grown up in poverty less deserving than your favoured minorities? And the Asians who have grown up in poverty, are they even less deserving than Whites?

Are you suggesting that the majority of people who have been convicted of crime are innocent, and it's merely racist policing that's responsible for the numbers?

If Black people as a group have a higher arrest and conviction rate, how on earth does that justify lower standards for medical school for that group?

It doesn't stop then: members of these groups are also assumed to be less qualified, less intelligent, less deserving, regardless of their own accomplishments, socioeconomic status, family status. It is quite possible to be an extremely well educated, highly successful black person in the U.S. and to still be refused service or to be arrested in your own home because someone thought you looked like you didn't belong there, in that neighborhood, that home that you have lived in for years. Because you are black.

So, we need to discriminate against selected White and Asian people to redress this?

How many generations should children have to wait to have a fair chance at life?

Tell me, by exactly how much should medical schools lower their standards to admit Sasha and Malia? After all, they're from the repressed group, are they not?

You'd also have a much bigger point if MCAT scores and GPA were the entire basis of admissions to med school. They aren't and while you may not like the idea,

Okay. Now I'm going to lose my patience with your strawmanning and I'ma start fucking swearing. I have, not ever, anywhere in time or space or the universe at alpha or omega ever ever said MCAT and GPA should be the entire basis of admission to anything. So, for the umpteenth time, will you please fucking drop the idea that I said that or believe it.

you cannot demonstrate that current medical school admissions standards are admitting students who are not qualified to be admitted.

And for the umpteenth fucking time, I never said 'not qualified'. I've said minority students (except Asians) do not have to reach the same standards of admission as other students, and the admission rates by race are proof. The Australian Public Service can advertise a job and rate any number of candidates 'suitable', but that does not mean every candidate is as qualified as every other. There's still an order of merit for everyone rated suitable, and the job is offered to the highest person on that order of merit.

In fact, very few medical students fail to successfully complete medical school. Medical schools seem to be doing an excellent job of screening candidates who truly wish to become physicians.

This is all completely and totally irrelevant. It has no connection to anything I've said and I don't know why you'd posit it.

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

So you think whatever these other metrics are, they are enough to make Black and Hispanic students 5-times more likely to be accepted? It's racial discrimination, plain and simple.

I agree that there is considerable racial discrimination coming into play long before a student thinks about applying to medical school.

I've done a bit of looking on the internet and so far, the following link does the most to elucidate the selection process for medical school, for one particular medical school. Other medical school admissions sites give greatly condensed versions of the same thing.

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/FACULTY...ed_School_Policies/Admissions_Policy_2013.pdf

 

[Loren Pechtel]

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

White and Asian students are under-represented compared to the pool of qualified applicants.

And while hunger and poor nutrition certainly do cause poor academic achievement that's no reason to let them into medical school. Fix the problem, don't pretend the problem doesn't exist.

The thing is fixing it isn't easy and almost certainly will cost the government big bucks. Sticking your head in the sand and blaming discrimination pretends to do something while spending very little. Never mind the big cost to the business world, that's not on the books.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've done a bit of looking on the internet and so far, the following link does the most to elucidate the selection process for medical school, for one particular medical school. Other medical school admissions sites give greatly condensed versions of the same thing.

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/FACULTY...ed_School_Policies/Admissions_Policy_2013.pdf

Lots of BS there, plenty of room to hide discrimination.

 

[Metaphor]

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Oy vey. We've been over this a hundred times. I've never said GPA and MCAT are the last word in suitability, so I'm puzzled as to why you keep mentioning it. If I thought GPA and MCAT should be the last word, I'd expect everyone with the highest MCAT/GPA combination to be admitted. Yet I know that they're not.

However, you are wrong to characterise MCAT and GPA as a mere threshold. It is obviously far more related to admission decisions than merely choosing a floor GPA/MCAT score. If it were merely a threshold, you would not see higher acceptance rates with increasing GPA and MCAT -- but of course we do see higher acceptance rates.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Completely irrelevant. If there were no discrimination by race, there would be more Whites and Asians in medical school. Whites and Asians are the majority now, because they're a combined majority of the general population and the majority of the high achievers in GPA and MCAT, despite the discrimination in admissions against them.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

First, poverty in America is not marked by food insecurity and hunger. It's quite the opposite -- Blacks and Latinos are in fact far more likely to be obese. I'll grant that obesity does not preclude having poor nutrition, but even if it did, shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted won't bring the horse back. If some Blacks and Latinos are less qualified for higher academic pursuits because of poor nutrition, taking opportunities away from some Whites and Asians won't turn back time and remedy it. Even if Blacks and Latinos as a group had higher malnutrition, the Blacks and Latinos applying to medical school are the least likely of their groups to have experienced it. And what do you propose to do about White and Asian households that had food insecurity?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

First, poverty in America is not marked by food insecurity and hunger. It's quite the opposite -- Blacks and Latinos are in fact far more likely to be obese. I'll grant that obesity does not preclude having poor nutrition, but even if it did, shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted won't bring the horse back. If some Blacks and Latinos are less qualified for higher academic pursuits because of poor nutrition, taking opportunities away from some Whites and Asians won't turn back time and remedy it. Even if Blacks and Latinos as a group had higher malnutrition, the Blacks and Latinos applying to medical school are the least likely of their groups to have experienced it. And what do you propose to do about White and Asian households that had food insecurity?

Poor nutrition still is a factor but it's still no reason to change admissions. If they're held back by nutrition the damage is permanent, they're not going to be as good a doc.

 

[J842P]

I agree that there is considerable racial discrimination coming into play long before a student thinks about applying to medical school.

I've done a bit of looking on the internet and so far, the following link does the most to elucidate the selection process for medical school, for one particular medical school. Other medical school admissions sites give greatly condensed versions of the same thing.

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/FACULTY...ed_School_Policies/Admissions_Policy_2013.pdf

This isn't really a response to what I've said. I notice also that no one has addressed my question which I will repeat:

You think it's OK for privileged Hispanics to get a leg up over poor Asians? You think poor Asians haven't been discriminated against just like Hispanics, and haven't had to live in dangerous neighborhoods with crappy schools?

Why it is so difficult to address this question directly? And I'm not trying to single you out.

But it seems to me that the only answers possible are that someone has to believe that all Hispanics have experience more discrimination and poverty-related negatives than all Asians, or that Asians haven't experienced any at all. Regardless, for some reason, people maintain that it's OK to privilege not only the disadvantaged Hispanics over all Asians, but the privileged ones as well! Perhaps you don't believe it is possible to be a privileged Hispanic?

Again, I won't mention disadvantaged whites, since it doesn't even seem to matter if they are being screwed. I suppose since people who shared similar skin-color as them in the past were very bad, they must suffer for it... on account of their skin-color.

And I just wanted to add one more thing, I believe Metaphor mentioned something regarding how AA seems best suited to capture minorities who have been able to avoid the disadvantages afforded by poverty. At my own University, they made a big deal about how they were working hard to increase Hispanic enrollment, presumably to give opportunities to people who were historically denied those opportunities. The only Hispanics I encountered who really fit that description were a few Puerto Ricans from New York. I certainly didn't fit that description. The Hispanic kids I knew from my area where similarly middle-class kids who had parents that were professionals. The biggest group of Hispanics on campus were upper-class, incredibly rich kids from Latin America. Real rich. Like, own-two-islands and your-parents-are-first-cousins-to-keep-the-wealth-in-the-family rich.

 

[Toni]

Oy vey. We've been over this a hundred times. I've never said GPA and MCAT are the last word in suitability, so I'm puzzled as to why you keep mentioning it. If I thought GPA and MCAT should be the last word, I'd expect everyone with the highest MCAT/GPA combination to be admitted. Yet I know that they're not.

Obviously, I have you confused with someone with the same username from the other forum. My apologies.

However, you are wrong to characterise MCAT and GPA as a mere threshold. It is obviously far more related to admission decisions than merely choosing a floor GPA/MCAT score. If it were merely a threshold, you would not see higher acceptance rates with increasing GPA and MCAT -- but of course we do see higher acceptance rates.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Completely irrelevant. If there were no discrimination by race, there would be more Whites and Asians in medical school. Whites and Asians are the majority now, because they're a combined majority of the general population and the majority of the high achievers in GPA and MCAT, despite the discrimination in admissions against them.

Here's the Census Bureau's break down of the U.S. population:
White alone, percent, 2012 (a) 77.9%
Black or African American alone, percent, 2012 (a) 13.1%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent, 2012 (a) 1.2%
Asian alone, percent, 2012 (a) 5.1%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent, 2012 (a) 0.2%
Two or More Races, percent, 2012 2.4%
Hispanic or Latino, percent, 2012 (b) 16.9%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent, 2012 (a) 63.0%

If there were no discrimination in the U.S., I would expect that university and professional school enrollment would more closely reflect the above percentages. As it stands, Asians make up a significantly smaller portion of the U.S. population than blacks or Hispanics, yet comprise a much higher proportion of medical students.

But I did like how you lumped Asians in with Whites. Makes it easier to prove your point. Lump ANY other racial or ethnic group in with whites and you get a majority because whites are the majority. While Asians are less than a third the number of Hispanics and only about 40 percent the number of Blacks.

First, poverty in America is not marked by food insecurity and hunger. It's quite the opposite -- Blacks and Latinos are in fact far more likely to be obese. I'll grant that obesity does not preclude having poor nutrition, but even if it did, shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted won't bring the horse back. If some Blacks and Latinos are less qualified for higher academic pursuits because of poor nutrition, taking opportunities away from some Whites and Asians won't turn back time and remedy it. Even if Blacks and Latinos as a group had higher malnutrition, the Blacks and Latinos applying to medical school are the least likely of their groups to have experienced it. And what do you propose to do about White and Asian households that had food insecurity?

You are confusing access to calories with nutrition. And seem to be ignorant of the fact that indeed, children do go to bed hungry and go to school hungry. To my great shame, approximately 14.5 percent of the U.S. population faces food insecurity.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us.aspx#.U1xvrPldXTp


Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

 

[dismal]

Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

The tests are obviously biased in favor of Asians. Lots of questions about whether you get eggroll.

 

[Toni]

Black and Latino candidates are two times, three times, sometimes eight times more likely to be admitted compared to White or Asian applicants.

Source?

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

First thing to notice: they have different grids by race. They have different grids, because medical schools discriminate based on race.

There are a lot of cells to comment on, but first, the acceptance rates for Asian applicants with an MCAT score 24-26, and a GPA of 2.80-2.99, was 6.8% (191 applicants in that category, 13 acceptances).

Now find the acceptance rate of Black applicants with the same MCAT score and GPA: 37.6% accepted (221 applicants, 83 succesful).

That is an odds ratio of 5.5. Black candidates with that GPA and MCAT score are five and a half times more likely to be accepted than Asian candidates with identical academic credentials and aptitude scores.

There are cells that show an even bigger discrepancy, but I don't want to draw firm conclusions from the lowest GPA/MCAT groupings because the number of candidates accepted from those cells is small and statistical inferences would be unreliable. However, it is worth noting that they are all generally in the same direction: as academic achievement and medical aptitude decreases, the gap between Black and Asian acceptance rates increases, favouring Blacks.

I've presented these tables many times on the old board. Of course, it didn't change anyone's mind if they're determined not to believe that affirmative action is discrimination by race, or if they do believe that and just don't care.

what is your solution or do you not find this a problem?

Define the problem. If the problem is 'we need to redress 400 years of discrimination against people who are long since dead' then there is no solution. It is certainly the case that discriminating against smart White and Asian kids applying to medical school cannot address it; it can only create a new cycle of discrimination based on race.

Whilst this new cycle is different from past discrimination, it has its own unique toxic effects. It targets individuals from ethnic groups where the ethnic group is doing too well. It does not attempt to remove advantage from individuals who have unfairly benefited from past discrimination (and I've already explained elsewhere that everyone is the worse off for past discrimination having taken place). It simply takes a narrow set of occupations (like law and medical school) and disadvantages the smart kids trying to get in (if they're White or Asian).

I once read an essay (from a speech) by Bill Clinton in support of affirmative action. Do you think Chelsea Clinton is going to be a victim to it? I guarantee you she won't be touched -- it'll be ordinary kids from middle and working class backgrounds who are smart enough to get a shot at medical or law school that will (and do) suffer from it. Do a web search on medical school + ethnicity. Asians are told outright by course advisers their MCAT scores will need to be higher than those of other ethnicities to get an equivalent shot.

If only discrimination was in the past and against people who are long since dead! It's not, not by a long shot.

In fact, as a group, members of certain ethnicity in the US have been discriminated against their entire lives, and in fact, before their birth when their mothers were less likely to receive good nutrition or good medical care. Black, Hispanic and Native students are more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to attend a poorly funded school, more likely to live with significant exposure and threat from violence in their neighborhoods and schools, for starters. They are more likely to be arrested and to be convicted and to receive longer jail sentences than their white counterparts, and to be arrested, convicted and incarcerated for less serious offenses. It doesn't stop then: members of these groups are also assumed to be less qualified, less intelligent, less deserving, regardless of their own accomplishments, socioeconomic status, family status. It is quite possible to be an extremely well educated, highly successful black person in the U.S. and to still be refused service or to be arrested in your own home because someone thought you looked like you didn't belong there, in that neighborhood, that home that you have lived in for years. Because you are black.

How many generations should children have to wait to have a fair chance at life?

You'd also have a much bigger point if MCAT scores and GPA were the entire basis of admissions to med school. They aren't and while you may not like the idea, you cannot demonstrate that current medical school admissions standards are admitting students who are not qualified to be admitted. In fact, very few medical students fail to successfully complete medical school. Medical schools seem to be doing an excellent job of screening candidates who truly wish to become physicians.

Toni, this doesn't address any of the arguments against current AA practices. You think it's OK for privileged Hispanics to get a leg up over poor Asians? You think poor Asians haven't been discriminated against just like Hispanics, and haven't had to live in dangerous neighborhoods with crappy schools? I don't even ask about poor whites because the implicit assumption seems to be "yes, white people had their day and now they should suck it up." It is grotesque that this is the supposedly progressive point of view. As a young person in America, it makes me realize that the problem of race will not go away any time soon as long as entire generations insist on judging people solely based on the color of their skin. The real solution is to have a real public University system in the United States that is affordable and won't put you back at least 50k in debt. One of the biggest issues with primary and secondary education is our absolutely stupid system whereby schools are locally funded. That makes sure that people who live in rich areas have rich schools. That should change. Those are real solutions.

You are completely misunderstanding me and in fact, completely misunderstanding the issues, deliberately, so, IMO. Worse, you are attributing to me ideas and beliefs which I do not hold.

A quota system would indeed reward (on average) wealthy students of any racial makeup over (on average) students of low socioeconomic status because a great deal of achievement is reflective of socioeconomic status of the parents, rather than actual ability of the students. This holds true in countries other than the U.S. To an increasing degree, universities and professional schools are looking for diversity in more than just racial and ethnic parameters.

Please see this, which you seem to have missed before:

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/FACULTY/...olicy_2013.pdf

It is a fact that those in power make the rules and generally make the rules such that the power structure favors the status quo. This can be deliberate and conscious as it has been done openly in the past and still is practiced in less open ways today. But it also includes much more subtle, and even unintentional bias if the thinking comes from one or from a narrow range of perspectives. As groups which were traditionally excluded absolutely, and often by law if not just policy and custom, from institutions of higher learning gain admission to such hallowed halls, and take their place in the professional class, yes, there is more influence. But it still pales compared to the power wielded by those who have held power since the beginning of this country and before.

Despite the decades since the Civil Rights Movement began, there still exists tremendous inequality that is centered on race, even against blacks and Hispanics who are highly educated and highly successful.

For the record, I fully support free education from pre-K through university level. One of the biggest reforms I believe that health care in the U.S. needs to make is to greatly reduce or eliminate entirely the debt burden for students who are accepted into medical schools. I am very well aware that harsh economic realities keep many intelligent, hardworking individuals from even considering more expensive schools or indeed any school beyond their local community college, or even from applying to professional schools. Those application fees alone are expensive (says the parent of a kid who spent a bundle last fall applying to professional schools). And few students whose parents aren't well off have the funds to make campus visits, travel for interviews, much less have parents to shepherd them through the process and help them make good decisions. I have a young co-worker whose parents urged her to take out as much in student loans as possible and now, 10 years later she's still struggling to dig herself out, working 2 full time jobs and delaying marriage, children, and even home ownership.

It is true that whites no longer get an automatic place in the front of the line.

 

[J842P]

You are completely misunderstanding me and in fact, completely misunderstanding the issues, deliberately, so, IMO. Worse, you are attributing to me ideas and beliefs which I do not hold.

No, I'm not. I'm asking you (or anyone reading and replying) a question. That question has been ignored. I'll repeat it again:

Do you think it's OK for privileged Hispanics to get a leg up over poor Asians? If so, do you think Asians haven't been discriminated against just like Hispanics, and haven't had to live in dangerous neighborhoods with crappy schools? If you don't think that, then why do you think that Hispanics as a group should get preferential treatment and why should Asians be discriminated against because of their race? How does that do anything to right previous injustices?

A quota system would indeed reward (on average) wealthy students of any racial makeup over (on average) students of low socioeconomic status because a great deal of achievement is reflective of socioeconomic status of the parents, rather than actual ability of the students. This holds true in countries other than the U.S. To an increasing degree, universities and professional schools are looking for diversity in more than just racial and ethnic parameters.

Please see this, which you seem to have missed before:

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/FACULTY/...olicy_2013.pdf

I didn't miss that. I honestly have no idea what you think that shows. That is some medical schools statement of selection criteria. I graduated in 2011. I am intimately aware of the process of med school admissions. Although I went the PhD route, many of my friends are going to medical school. I read many similar statements from many different schools because I served as the moral support for one of my good friends/ house-mate who was applying at the top level. He ended up getting into Johns Hopkins University (though he decided to attend medical school closer to his family), so I know what the best, most competitive students look like and what they went through.

It is a fact that those in power make the rules and generally make the rules such that the power structure favors the status quo. This can be deliberate and conscious as it has been done openly in the past and still is practiced in less open ways today. But it also includes much more subtle, and even unintentional bias if the thinking comes from one or from a narrow range of perspectives. As groups which were traditionally excluded absolutely, and often by law if not just policy and custom, from institutions of higher learning gain admission to such hallowed halls, and take their place in the professional class, yes, there is more influence. But it still pales compared to the power wielded by those who have held power since the beginning of this country and before.

Despite the decades since the Civil Rights Movement began, there still exists tremendous inequality that is centered on race, even against blacks and Hispanics who are highly educated and highly successful.

Again, I have no idea what this is in regards to. I am aware of the history and current status of race relations and politics in the United States. I am not sure how actively discriminating based on racial criteria today is somehow justified given previous racial discrimination. Why should MINORITIES today (people from East and South Asia) have to put up with institutionalized discrimination against them?

It is true that whites no longer get an automatic place in the front of the line.

I don't understand. So now, black people and Hispanic people have gained institutionalized advantages over Asians and Indians and whites in the limited sphere of college admissions. I suppose since white people are being harmed, that's suppose to make it OK? I don't follow you. Honestly. I cannot understand the point you are making. If the point you are making is that black and Hispanic people (and actually Asian people too) used to live in a society where there were strong institutions keeping them disadvantaged, vestiges of which still exist today, then I'm not sure how that is relevant to the issue at hand.

 

[Metaphor]

Obviously, I have you confused with someone with the same username from the other forum. My apologies.

You do indeed seem to be deeply, hopelessly confused. On the other forum, I never claimed GPA and MCAT were the last word, either.

If there were no discrimination in the U.S., I would expect that university and professional school enrollment would more closely reflect the above percentages.

Why on earth would you expect that? Do you think each racial group achieves the same outcomes on GPA and MCAT?

As it stands, Asians make up a significantly smaller portion of the U.S. population than blacks or Hispanics, yet comprise a much higher proportion of medical students.

Yes, and we both know why: it's because Asians as a group score significantly higher on GPA and MCAT than any other ethnic group. But, in fact, Asians are underrepresented compared to their achievement. Under-represented. Do you know why? It's because of discrimination by race by medical schools, which hurts Asians and Whites.

But I did like how you lumped Asians in with Whites.

No, I did not. You did that.

Makes it easier to prove your point. Lump ANY other racial or ethnic group in with whites and you get a majority because whites are the majority. While Asians are less than a third the number of Hispanics and only about 40 percent the number of Blacks.

Asians, as a group, are the highest achievers on GPA and MCAT. It is therefore no mystery that the composition of medical students accepted reflects this.

I know you don't like the reality that medical schools favour students with higher GPAs and MCAT scores, but that's something you'll have to take up with the medical schools.

You are confusing access to calories with nutrition.

No, I'm not. Indeed, I already mentioned that obesity did not necessarily overrule the possibility of malnutrition. Do you read my posts?

And seem to be ignorant of the fact that indeed, children do go to bed hungry and go to school hungry. To my great shame, approximately 14.5 percent of the U.S. population faces food insecurity.

So, only Blacks and Latinos face food insecurity, and no Whites or Asians do?

Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

Not just standardised tests, but GPA too.

I doubt there's any one reason why there are racial discrepancies. But I do know that, whatever the reasons, no amount of discrimination against Whites and Asians in medical school admissions can make the gap disappear.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I really cant think of any good reason to allow black people or Hispanic people as groups lower entrance standards.

The best I can do for that side is to argue that in doing so you may wind up with more black and Hispanic doctors, which black and Hispanic people may be more comfortable with. Similar arguent would apply to lower standards for women if women doctors were in short supply.

They also may provide a good example for youth who may feel disenfranchised due to history and culture (self perpetuating or otherwise)

Has Obama being president had strong influence on the attitudes and outlook of America's young black men? You dont need the same for asians or jews (also historically repressed as a group) because for whatever reason cultural perception (both within the groups and from outside the groups) isnt as negative.

I see alot of holes in the above argument, but I really cant see any argument for affirmative action. Because everything else on that side seems to rely on blatant racism.

 

[doubtingt]

Here's the Census Bureau's break down of the U.S. population:
White alone, percent, 2012 (a) 77.9%
Black or African American alone, percent, 2012 (a) 13.1%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent, 2012 (a) 1.2%
Asian alone, percent, 2012 (a) 5.1%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent, 2012 (a) 0.2%
Two or More Races, percent, 2012 2.4%
Hispanic or Latino, percent, 2012 (b) 16.9%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent, 2012 (a) 63.0%

If there were no discrimination in the U.S., I would expect that university and professional school enrollment would more closely reflect the above percentages.

Yeah, it is clear that you and almost all AA supporters expect (or more accurately presume) that, but it is a baseless assumption that rests on the additional presumption that racial discrimination in admissions decisions is the only possible admissions factor that could relate to race in any way. That is silly and factually just plain false. First, blacks are much more likely to drop out of high school, and that makes getting into college tough. Second, black you do graduate are much less likely to apply to college and that makes getting accepted tough. Third, blacks are much less likely to voluntarily take extra math courses beyond the 2 required by most high schools (they don't get beyond Algebra) and much less likely to take any honors courses in any of the subjects (ACT and SAT are both highly predicted by whether students took honors courses and core subjects as electives). Fourth, blacks are less likely to engage in volunteer work and community service that can help boost an application with mediocre academic scores. Fifth, blacks do worse in their high school courses. Blacks are less likely to get support at home with their school work (in large part due to much higher rates of absentee fathers). Anti-school attitudes are stronger in black communities. Basically, think of everything that impacts being intellectually and emotionally prepared to do well in college and to be motivated to try and get into college, and their is a high probability that black do worse on most of those factors. For example, we don't have data on it, but it would be highly consistent with what we do know if blacks were much less likely to be willing to do extra credit to boost their HSGPA when given the opportunity. IOW, teachers usually do things to allow students who try hard but struggle to pull up their grade. But most of these probably widen the black-white gap even more because the white kids who don't need the extra points are more likely to do the extra work than the black kids that do need the extra points.

In sum, in a world where admissions offices bent over backwards to find every excuse to admit as many blacks as they could while still pretending its a merit based decision, there would still be notably fewer blacks in college than in the population. Which is in fact the situation we have now. None of the above requires accepting any kind of racist assumptions of inherent black inferiority. In part, this is because many of the factors are not about ability but about effort, preparation, goals, and values. But also because cultural differences can shape all of these things independent of any innate abilities to learn or innate personality traits.
Are some of those cultural differences due to experiences in poor and violent neighborhoods, racism by police, family cultures shaped by Jim Crow, and Slavery? Absolutely. But none of that is college admissions discrimination and none of it can be undone by college admissions decisions and efforts to do so are as or more likely to cause more such problems than "correct" for them (such as AA increasing failure rates in college among minority groups and thus increasing stereotype beliefs about lesser ability not only among whites but among blacks along with increasing anti-school attitudes). Also, none of these factors are unique to minorities and exist among many white applicants. It is just a matter of group level averages. So, use of race as a proxy for these is using a chainsaw to do surgery and will lead to many mistakes and harm.

Finally, Hispanics make up about 16.5% of college students that matches their 16.9% of the population. So, any claims of racial discrimination in admissions would have to assert that the same racists who don't want blacks in colleges, have no problem with Hispanics and like Asians more than whites.

Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

For many of the reasons described above, none of which have to do with the test being at all unfair as a measure of blacks aptitude and intellectual and motivational readiness for college education. In fact, those factors predict such differences in test scores the more valid those tests are. Given that blacks don't take as hard of courses, don't do as well in courses, and all the other factors, any test that didn't show blacks with lower avg scores would have to be invalid as a measure of intellectual readiness for college.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Yeah, it is clear that you and almost all AA supporters expect (or more accurately presume) that, but it is a baseless assumption that rests on the additional presumption that racial discrimination in admissions decisions is the only possible admissions factor that could relate to race in any way. That is silly and factually just plain false. First, blacks are much more likely to drop out of high school, and that makes getting into college tough. Second, black you do graduate are much less likely to apply to college and that makes getting accepted tough. Third, blacks are much less likely to voluntarily take extra math courses beyond the 2 required by most high schools (they don't get beyond Algebra) and much less likely to take any honors courses in any of the subjects (ACT and SAT are both highly predicted by whether students took honors courses and core subjects as electives). Fourth, blacks are less likely to engage in volunteer work and community service that can help boost an application with mediocre academic scores. Fifth, blacks do worse in their high school courses. Blacks are less likely to get support at home with their school work (in large part due to much higher rates of absentee fathers). Anti-school attitudes are stronger in black communities. Basically, think of everything that impacts being intellectually and emotionally prepared to do well in college and to be motivated to try and get into college, and their is a high probability that black do worse on most of those factors. For example, we don't have data on it, but it would be highly consistent with what we do know if blacks were much less likely to be willing to do extra credit to boost their HSGPA when given the opportunity. IOW, teachers usually do things to allow students who try hard but struggle to pull up their grade. But most of these probably widen the black-white gap even more because the white kids who don't need the extra points are more likely to do the extra work than the black kids that do need the extra points.

In sum, in a world where admissions offices bent over backwards to find every excuse to admit as many blacks as they could while still pretending its a merit based decision, there would still be notably fewer blacks in college than in the population. Which is in fact the situation we have now. None of the above requires accepting any kind of racist assumptions of inherent black inferiority. In part, this is because many of the factors are not about ability but about effort, preparation, goals, and values. But also because cultural differences can shape all of these things independent of any innate abilities to learn or innate personality traits.
Are some of those cultural differences due to experiences in poor and violent neighborhoods, racism by police, family cultures shaped by Jim Crow, and Slavery? Absolutely. But none of that is college admissions discrimination and none of it can be undone by college admissions decisions and efforts to do so are as or more likely to cause more such problems than "correct" for them (such as AA increasing failure rates in college among minority groups and thus increasing stereotype beliefs about lesser ability not only among whites but among blacks along with increasing anti-school attitudes). Also, none of these factors are unique to minorities and exist among many white applicants. It is just a matter of group level averages. So, use of race as a proxy for these is using a chainsaw to do surgery and will lead to many mistakes and harm.

Finally, Hispanics make up about 16.5% of college students that matches their 16.9% of the population. So, any claims of racial discrimination in admissions would have to assert that the same racists who don't want blacks in colleges, have no problem with Hispanics and like Asians more than whites.

Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

For many of the reasons described above, none of which have to do with the test being at all unfair as a measure of blacks aptitude and intellectual and motivational readiness for college education. In fact, those factors predict such differences in test scores the more valid those tests are. Given that blacks don't take as hard of courses, don't do as well in courses, and all the other factors, any test that didn't show blacks with lower avg scores would have to be invalid as a measure of intellectual readiness for college.

First, it is amazing how well you know what goes on black households and minds and what the desires of black people are. It is stunning in fact.

Hell, I'm black and a certified diversity consultant with eight years of teaching experience in the public schools of NC who has given expert testimony in court and before the state assembly on discrimination practices in hiring and education and even i can not speak with the certainty and omniscience about the black family and black students behaviors that you do. Absolutely stunning.

Riddle me this Batman


Do black people in total or in the majority not value education, not set educational goals, not plan their educational track well, etc., because we don't value education, or we don't value the education we are getting?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I really cant think of any good reason to allow black people or Hispanic people as groups lower entrance standards.

I think the problem is we are dealing with people who think groups matter rather than individuals. Looked at it from that standpoint AA makes sense. Looked at from a standpoint of individuals it makes no sense to give a benefit to B just because they're in the same group as the victim A.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

First, it is amazing how well you know what goes on black households and minds and what the desires of black people are. It is stunning in fact.

You see what goes on in black households where there isn't a problem and you think it applies to all of them.

Hell, I'm black and a certified diversity consultant with eight years of teaching experience in the public schools of NC who has given expert testimony in court and before the state assembly on discrimination practices in hiring and education and even i can not speak with the certainty and omniscience about the black family and black students behaviors that you do. Absolutely stunning.

What I've seen of the field you're in says that you're less qualified than the average man in the street. You have "learned" that differences mean discrimination--something that's often not true.

Do black people in total or in the majority not value education, not set educational goals, not plan their educational track well, etc., because we don't value education, or we don't value the education we are getting?

Strawman!

Nobody is saying all blacks do anything!